if we can run at 85% of vVO2max for 20xtlimVO2max, increasing those two values will allow us to run faster longer. Do I have that right?

I'm pretty sure that's right.

Re: when to test, I have a related question. There's the dogma out there that speedwork should only be done for 6-8 weeks before fitness gains taper off and the risk of injury increases. The 30-30 workout is about as speedy as you get, so do you only recommend doing these during a build-peak phase, or in other phases as well?

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For more information regarding Billat, check out Peak Performance Online. Enter "Billat" in the sites library search engine and you will get a couple of pages worth of info. This site is not for the faint at heart.


http://www.pponline.co.uk/

I've shared Francois' article with several friends, and it's sparked quite a bit of discussion & interest. Francios, good work.

I also have some questions:

First, why 30/30? Why not 45/45, or 120/120, or 120/60? What makes 30/30 an optimal mix? More to the point, is there any testing that can be done outside a lab to determine the ideal work/recovery interval for this kind of workout? Or maybe even more interesting, how would you expect the work/recovery interval to change over time in someone doing these sessions once/week?

Second, I'm training for my first Ironman, having done half-Ironman races for two seasons. Everything I've read and most coaches I've spoken to suggest focusing exclusively on endurance, force, and skills until about 12 weeks before the race. Francois' paper echos this approach. My question is why not do these 30/30 sessions during the base-building period, just once a week? Seems to me that these workouts will help increase LT threshold, which in turn will let you get more from the long, slow distance workouts because they won't be quite as slow or they can be longer. I'm personally stronger on the run than the other sports, and I'd love to be faster in running races as well as the run leg of a tri.

Thanks!
Lee

the interest of running longer at Vo2max (if I remember correctly as I read VB's articles a while back) is that tlim at Vo2 is directly related to LT and running efficiency.

How often? Not sure, it depends in what part of your training you are at, how long you have been training etc.
Obviously, a very well conditioned athlete who has been training for many years will take longer to see significant improvements when in full training mode.

I can't confirm for sure if vVo2 and tlimVo2 transfer or not. Remember, I translated her work, and made it more accessible, I didn't do the research.
However, my Vo2 in the 3 sports is different, vVo2 also (for obvious reasons) and tlim is also different.
So I believe it is sport specific although there might be a bit of transfer.

Hope the Oracle reads this to give his valuable input.

To implement this for biking, if you don't have a power meter, a long enough climb would do the trick (as long as you take into account possible weight variations).

better yet check

www.billat.net/entrainement.htm and on the left you have
aerobic
anaerobic
intervals
altitude
which are pubmed and complete articles, many of them now in english

why 30/30 instead of 45/45 etc...

this is addressed in one of her papers. because it seems to be the optimal way to spend as much time at vo2max as possible, but nothing prevents you from trying different combos...
they may provide a slightly different stimulus and will make you do a different training so you don't repeat the same thing over and over again.

your suggestion about using vo2max development in the base building period is a first step towards 'reverse periodization' (sure the Oracle and smartasscoach will add something here)...

Basically, if you get ready for an IM, the idea is the following:

during the base period you work on 'general training, develop Vo2max, Lactate threshold, efficiency (and VB's work shows that 30/30 type work helps all 3), strength, endurance, skills, without necessarly big sessions etc.
just the work that any triathlete (short course, long course) etc. should do to develop all metabolic pathways, skills etc. then have maybe one week of regeneration and use the last 12 weeks leading to IM as the real IM prep, with long stuff, race pace work, race simulation etc. and big volume.

The advantage is that the risk of either physical or mental burn out is much much smaller, you can be good over shorter distance, with some decent speed in the first part of the season, and get in the IM prep. with a good base overall (good LT, good speed etc.)

Seems like a much more logical approach than piling up endless miles...
(and if you find the thread about Cyber Epic Camp, done here in march...guilty as charged...but you live and learn :-) )

Talked like a true smartasscoach ;-)



Anyway, I just wanted to add that there is a danger of doing the 30/30 too fast, that is why you need the results of testing so that you work your vVO2Max. That danger is not as present as the repeat time goes up, even though for elite athletes there is a chance that even a 5-6min effort, the absolute top for VO2Max work, will be run too fast. But then again, if your objective is lactate tolerance, that might be a good thing. But this is complicating the matter a bit too much. Bottom line: 30/30 at the correct vVO2Max pace.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Francois, greetings.

I enjoy your frequent commentary and common sense.

You refer in your recent post responding to LSilverman to the concept of "reverse periodization". I have successfully practiced this counter-culture concept for many years now, as have the many athletes that I have coached over the years.

You might find it interesting to review a couple of detailed articles I have written on the subject:

Rethinking Base Training http://www.triathloncoach.com/articles/rethink.html

Training Backwards, the Pyramid Turned Upside Down http://www.triathloncoach.com/articles/backwards.html

I haven't reviewed the Billat papers that you reference, but shall look forward to doing so.

Best,

Michael McCormack

Hey Mike,

I do remember that your name was one of those who came up when reverse periodization was mentioned.
First time I heard about the concept was from Jan Olbrecht after Luc Van Lierde won Kona 96.

I have read your articles already actually...it does make a lot of sense, even though I stuck to the regular stuff for a while...but clearly hasn't been working for me. I guess when you have an ability to do a lot of work, then reverse periodization is even better, because when you can work a lot, you can also dig a deeper to hole to put yourself in (sic....)

Francois

Rev periodization is in a sense how I approached Tom's program this year as well, with the focus on the first part of the season at threshold and steady state efforts (tempo), then for the final 2 months shifting to IM specific work and volume. One of the benefits was not being as tempted to do too much volume too soon as the higher intensities earlier in the program discourage that.
Overall what seems to work about it is doing the more specific training closer to the race, as opposed to just gradually moving from slow to fast training.

Joel

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast

What's 30/30?

30/30 is an interval workout based upon your velocity at VO2max. The easiest way to determine this pace is to do a 6 minute timetrial and note the distance covered. Say you covered 1600 meters. Dividing 1600 by 360 (6 minutes in seconds) will give you 4.44 meters per second. Multiply 4.44 by 30 gives you 133 (rounded) meters.

After all that math, now to the workout: Run 133 meters in 30 seconds then jog 66 meters in 30 seconds. Repeat until you can’t run 133 meters in 30sec. Most people can do 15 to 20 minutes worth of these intervals. Some can do more.

Simply put, "reverse periodization" is the answer to the question "how do I train for IM's" if you approach it like a coach should approach different endurance activities. "Traditional periodization" is the answer if you just copy what the others gave been doing for years.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

actually, traditional periodization is not even following the principles of T. Bompa.

The idea was to go from general to specific and general means work on all different aspects of training, Vo2, LT, skills, force etc...specific means race specific...

so reverse periodization should be called periodization and periodization should be called 'misunderstanding' :-)

Don't atribute traditional periodization to Bompa. Bompa was just the first guy to write it in english. Matveiev and some other russian guys are responsible for that.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Who's Tom? :-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Great description.

I have heard that a long time staple Kenyan workout is 30/30 where they run "hard" for 30 sec and jog for 30 sec and repeat this cycle over and over for an extended period of time.

Many runners would significantly benefit from simply setting a count-down timer on their watch and running "hard" for 30 seconds and jogging/walking for 30 sec and repeating. However, many runners don't do this form of work-out because it is associated with "speed-work" and "speed-work" seems to be this dark evil thing that many runners avoid like the plague.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

M2,

I read some of the info on your website and found it insightful. I will be considering some of your hints in my future training.

Was wondering about indoor trainer machines though. Seems the type that Troy Jacobson sells do have "progressive resistance" but I don't know how it compares to a computrainer . I primarily use rollers with fan resistance too. Anyway thanks for the info...

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I was, now I will tri again!
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Any time is a good time.
God Bless you my friend.

There really isn't an optimal cookbook mix you can rely on. Other investigators (Tabata in Japan, for example) showed that you can significantly raise VO2 max ith 20 sec on /10 sec rest repeated over 20 minutes or so. Really, anything that gets you around your VO2 max with a rest interval that doesn't allow your heart rate to drop significantly between work periods will work nicely. The benefit of the 30/30 or 20/10 or whatever is that it is very well tolerated even by novice athletes.

Also, while Billat's work suggests that these sorts of intervals train many different systems, you should remember that it is not the only (or possibly best) way of training. For example, there are lots of papers out there (inc. Londeree a couple years back in MSSE) that show the optimal way of increasing LT is training *AT* LT (although he does concede that better trained people respond better to harder workloads). A VO2 max workout will by default end up raising your LT somewhat, just as plain endurance training will increase your LT and VO2 max. It just isn't nessecarily the most *efficient* way of doing it.

Phil

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

It seems to me that "reverse periodization" would not be an optimal strategy for short-course racing... is that safe to say?



And I'll repeat my earlier question for any of the knowlegeable folks out there - would you only do 6-8 weeks of VO2max intervals or could one do more?

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Really, VO2 max starts to plateau after 6 weeks to 2 months of training. You *can* see additional gains after this by changing your training stimulus, but your gains will be less significant in terms of raw Vo2 uptake. Realize, though, that if you keep training and lose additional weight, your VO2 *per kilogram* will continue to increase.

re: reverse periodization...it is moving from general to event specific. So in the runup to your event, you would again probably be focusing more on LT work, less on VO2 work, since your LT is probably the greatest determinant of your endurance exercise performance. Even in a sprint tri you are working somewhat below your VO2 max, since even very well trained people can only hang on at their vo2 max for a period of a few minutes (i.e. 10 min or so, a few slightly more, but mostly less).

Philbert

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Really, VO2 max starts to plateau after 6 weeks to 2 months of training

That's what I've heard as well. But I've never seen a specific recommendation for limiting the 30/30 workout to 6-8 weeks, and some posts seem to imply that these workouts can be done for a longer duration.

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As an aside, I recently heard an interesting theory regarding periodization that suggested that the varying cycles originally had as much to do with effective doping protocol as effective training protocol.

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast

http://www.competitionzone.com/athletes/evans.htm

Joel