if we can run at 85% of vVO2max for 20xtlimVO2max, increasing those two values will allow us to run faster longer. Do I have that right?

I'm pretty sure that's right.

Re: when to test, I have a related question. There's the dogma out there that speedwork should only be done for 6-8 weeks before fitness gains taper off and the risk of injury increases. The 30-30 workout is about as speedy as you get, so do you only recommend doing these during a build-peak phase, or in other phases as well?

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For more information regarding Billat, check out Peak Performance Online. Enter "Billat" in the sites library search engine and you will get a couple of pages worth of info. This site is not for the faint at heart.


http://www.pponline.co.uk/

I've shared Francois' article with several friends, and it's sparked quite a bit of discussion & interest. Francios, good work.

I also have some questions:

First, why 30/30? Why not 45/45, or 120/120, or 120/60? What makes 30/30 an optimal mix? More to the point, is there any testing that can be done outside a lab to determine the ideal work/recovery interval for this kind of workout? Or maybe even more interesting, how would you expect the work/recovery interval to change over time in someone doing these sessions once/week?

Second, I'm training for my first Ironman, having done half-Ironman races for two seasons. Everything I've read and most coaches I've spoken to suggest focusing exclusively on endurance, force, and skills until about 12 weeks before the race. Francois' paper echos this approach. My question is why not do these 30/30 sessions during the base-building period, just once a week? Seems to me that these workouts will help increase LT threshold, which in turn will let you get more from the long, slow distance workouts because they won't be quite as slow or they can be longer. I'm personally stronger on the run than the other sports, and I'd love to be faster in running races as well as the run leg of a tri.

Thanks!
Lee

the interest of running longer at Vo2max (if I remember correctly as I read VB's articles a while back) is that tlim at Vo2 is directly related to LT and running efficiency.

How often? Not sure, it depends in what part of your training you are at, how long you have been training etc.
Obviously, a very well conditioned athlete who has been training for many years will take longer to see significant improvements when in full training mode.

I can't confirm for sure if vVo2 and tlimVo2 transfer or not. Remember, I translated her work, and made it more accessible, I didn't do the research.
However, my Vo2 in the 3 sports is different, vVo2 also (for obvious reasons) and tlim is also different.
So I believe it is sport specific although there might be a bit of transfer.

Hope the Oracle reads this to give his valuable input.

To implement this for biking, if you don't have a power meter, a long enough climb would do the trick (as long as you take into account possible weight variations).

better yet check

www.billat.net/entrainement.htm and on the left you have
aerobic
anaerobic
intervals
altitude
which are pubmed and complete articles, many of them now in english

why 30/30 instead of 45/45 etc...

this is addressed in one of her papers. because it seems to be the optimal way to spend as much time at vo2max as possible, but nothing prevents you from trying different combos...
they may provide a slightly different stimulus and will make you do a different training so you don't repeat the same thing over and over again.

your suggestion about using vo2max development in the base building period is a first step towards 'reverse periodization' (sure the Oracle and smartasscoach will add something here)...

Basically, if you get ready for an IM, the idea is the following:

during the base period you work on 'general training, develop Vo2max, Lactate threshold, efficiency (and VB's work shows that 30/30 type work helps all 3), strength, endurance, skills, without necessarly big sessions etc.
just the work that any triathlete (short course, long course) etc. should do to develop all metabolic pathways, skills etc. then have maybe one week of regeneration and use the last 12 weeks leading to IM as the real IM prep, with long stuff, race pace work, race simulation etc. and big volume.

The advantage is that the risk of either physical or mental burn out is much much smaller, you can be good over shorter distance, with some decent speed in the first part of the season, and get in the IM prep. with a good base overall (good LT, good speed etc.)

Seems like a much more logical approach than piling up endless miles...
(and if you find the thread about Cyber Epic Camp, done here in march...guilty as charged...but you live and learn :-) )

Talked like a true smartasscoach ;-)



Anyway, I just wanted to add that there is a danger of doing the 30/30 too fast, that is why you need the results of testing so that you work your vVO2Max. That danger is not as present as the repeat time goes up, even though for elite athletes there is a chance that even a 5-6min effort, the absolute top for VO2Max work, will be run too fast. But then again, if your objective is lactate tolerance, that might be a good thing. But this is complicating the matter a bit too much. Bottom line: 30/30 at the correct vVO2Max pace.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Francois, greetings.

I enjoy your frequent commentary and common sense.

You refer in your recent post responding to LSilverman to the concept of "reverse periodization". I have successfully practiced this counter-culture concept for many years now, as have the many athletes that I have coached over the years.

You might find it interesting to review a couple of detailed articles I have written on the subject:

Rethinking Base Training http://www.triathloncoach.com/articles/rethink.html

Training Backwards, the Pyramid Turned Upside Down http://www.triathloncoach.com/articles/backwards.html

I haven't reviewed the Billat papers that you reference, but shall look forward to doing so.

Best,

Michael McCormack

Hey Mike,

I do remember that your name was one of those who came up when reverse periodization was mentioned.
First time I heard about the concept was from Jan Olbrecht after Luc Van Lierde won Kona 96.

I have read your articles already actually...it does make a lot of sense, even though I stuck to the regular stuff for a while...but clearly hasn't been working for me. I guess when you have an ability to do a lot of work, then reverse periodization is even better, because when you can work a lot, you can also dig a deeper to hole to put yourself in (sic....)

Francois

Rev periodization is in a sense how I approached Tom's program this year as well, with the focus on the first part of the season at threshold and steady state efforts (tempo), then for the final 2 months shifting to IM specific work and volume. One of the benefits was not being as tempted to do too much volume too soon as the higher intensities earlier in the program discourage that.
Overall what seems to work about it is doing the more specific training closer to the race, as opposed to just gradually moving from slow to fast training.

Joel

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast

What's 30/30?

30/30 is an interval workout based upon your velocity at VO2max. The easiest way to determine this pace is to do a 6 minute timetrial and note the distance covered. Say you covered 1600 meters. Dividing 1600 by 360 (6 minutes in seconds) will give you 4.44 meters per second. Multiply 4.44 by 30 gives you 133 (rounded) meters.

After all that math, now to the workout: Run 133 meters in 30 seconds then jog 66 meters in 30 seconds. Repeat until you can’t run 133 meters in 30sec. Most people can do 15 to 20 minutes worth of these intervals. Some can do more.

Simply put, "reverse periodization" is the answer to the question "how do I train for IM's" if you approach it like a coach should approach different endurance activities. "Traditional periodization" is the answer if you just copy what the others gave been doing for years.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

actually, traditional periodization is not even following the principles of T. Bompa.

The idea was to go from general to specific and general means work on all different aspects of training, Vo2, LT, skills, force etc...specific means race specific...

so reverse periodization should be called periodization and periodization should be called 'misunderstanding' :-)

Don't atribute traditional periodization to Bompa. Bompa was just the first guy to write it in english. Matveiev and some other russian guys are responsible for that.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Who's Tom? :-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Great description.

I have heard that a long time staple Kenyan workout is 30/30 where they run "hard" for 30 sec and jog for 30 sec and repeat this cycle over and over for an extended period of time.

Many runners would significantly benefit from simply setting a count-down timer on their watch and running "hard" for 30 seconds and jogging/walking for 30 sec and repeating. However, many runners don't do this form of work-out because it is associated with "speed-work" and "speed-work" seems to be this dark evil thing that many runners avoid like the plague.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

M2,

I read some of the info on your website and found it insightful. I will be considering some of your hints in my future training.

Was wondering about indoor trainer machines though. Seems the type that Troy Jacobson sells do have "progressive resistance" but I don't know how it compares to a computrainer . I primarily use rollers with fan resistance too. Anyway thanks for the info...

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I was, now I will tri again!
...
Any time is a good time.
God Bless you my friend.

There really isn't an optimal cookbook mix you can rely on. Other investigators (Tabata in Japan, for example) showed that you can significantly raise VO2 max ith 20 sec on /10 sec rest repeated over 20 minutes or so. Really, anything that gets you around your VO2 max with a rest interval that doesn't allow your heart rate to drop significantly between work periods will work nicely. The benefit of the 30/30 or 20/10 or whatever is that it is very well tolerated even by novice athletes.

Also, while Billat's work suggests that these sorts of intervals train many different systems, you should remember that it is not the only (or possibly best) way of training. For example, there are lots of papers out there (inc. Londeree a couple years back in MSSE) that show the optimal way of increasing LT is training *AT* LT (although he does concede that better trained people respond better to harder workloads). A VO2 max workout will by default end up raising your LT somewhat, just as plain endurance training will increase your LT and VO2 max. It just isn't nessecarily the most *efficient* way of doing it.

Phil

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

It seems to me that "reverse periodization" would not be an optimal strategy for short-course racing... is that safe to say?



And I'll repeat my earlier question for any of the knowlegeable folks out there - would you only do 6-8 weeks of VO2max intervals or could one do more?

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Really, VO2 max starts to plateau after 6 weeks to 2 months of training. You *can* see additional gains after this by changing your training stimulus, but your gains will be less significant in terms of raw Vo2 uptake. Realize, though, that if you keep training and lose additional weight, your VO2 *per kilogram* will continue to increase.

re: reverse periodization...it is moving from general to event specific. So in the runup to your event, you would again probably be focusing more on LT work, less on VO2 work, since your LT is probably the greatest determinant of your endurance exercise performance. Even in a sprint tri you are working somewhat below your VO2 max, since even very well trained people can only hang on at their vo2 max for a period of a few minutes (i.e. 10 min or so, a few slightly more, but mostly less).

Philbert

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Really, VO2 max starts to plateau after 6 weeks to 2 months of training

That's what I've heard as well. But I've never seen a specific recommendation for limiting the 30/30 workout to 6-8 weeks, and some posts seem to imply that these workouts can be done for a longer duration.

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As an aside, I recently heard an interesting theory regarding periodization that suggested that the varying cycles originally had as much to do with effective doping protocol as effective training protocol.

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast

http://www.competitionzone.com/athletes/evans.htm

Joel

I didn't know that... Congrats!

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Francois, do you know what primary paper is being described here? For the life of me I can't find it

"The classic Billat strategem for hoisting vVO2max, as well as lactate threshold and efficiency of movement (economy), was a workout consisting of five three-minute intervals at vVO2max, with three-minute 'float' recoveries after the intervals. The diminutive genius from the University of Lille was able to show experimentally that this simple workout, carried out on a weekly basis, could upgrade vVO2max and lactate threshold by 3% and economy by 6% in as short a time as nine weeks (1). " (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0896.htm)

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forgot which ones...our stuff from France arrive in 2 weeks...I'll let you know as I have these papers.

Thanks - I found one which describes the 30/30 program, but in relation to time spent at VO2max, not reporting the effects of actually doing the training for a number of weeks. Another paper ("Interval training at VO2max: effects on aerobic performance and overtraining markers.") showed no improvement in LT or VO2max but did not use the 30/30 program.

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Hey, JHC. Now you have done it! You have given away the secret link to Peak Performance Online.

You will put hundreds of "triathlon coaches" out of business, as their clients will discover the absolute simplicity of endurance training - train, hard, Train often and repeat - without a heart rate monitor in site!

Just kidding. Actually it is all there. I would highly reccomend anyone training for everything from a 5K running race through to an Ironman Traithlon spend a ferw hours reading the articles on PP Online. It should be required reading!

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I like that site too, but I wish they'd be better in actually providing references for studies they claim to cite.

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The easiest way to determine this pace is to do a 6 minute timetrial and note the distance covered.

Actually, that was another question I had about Francois' article.

Since one of the attributes we're trying to improve is tlimVO2max, simply running a 6 minute tt seems like an imperfect protocol, to say the least. What if your tlimVO2 max is 4 minutes, or 7.5 minutes?

While I am usually all for keeping this stuff as simple as possible, it seems to me much better to do the more detailed 2-day test to determine both vVO2max and tlimVO2max.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Imperfect it may be but still a good proxy.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0896.htm

Well, that would explain my inability to find one, but then where did the claim from PP Online come from?

"The diminutive genius from the University of Lille was able to show experimentally that this simple workout, carried out on a weekly basis, could upgrade vVO2max and lactate threshold by 3% and economy by 6% in as short a time as nine weeks"


edit: I think I answered my own question. The 1999 paper "Interval training at V·O2max: effects on aerobic performance and overtraining markers" is probably the one in question. Except that all lactate mesaures were unchanged and the interval in question was 3 min on/3min off.

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I think it's called criative writing. With a sentence that starts with "The diminutive genius from the University of Lille" you should be suspicious ;-)

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smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

<<Was wondering about indoor trainer machines though. Seems the type that Troy Jacobson sells do have "progressive resistance" but I don't know how it compares to a computrainer . I primarily use rollers with fan resistance too. Anyway thanks for the info... >>

GT, I should also stipulate that the progressive resistance should have a road-like feel, meaning that as you increase cadence within a gear or from one gear to the next, the increase in workload should be similar to what you experience on the road.

I am not familiar with the current device TJ is promoting, but know that previously TJ promoted Cyclops fluid trainers, a device that I find to be useless with its wildly disproportionate "progressive resistance" and unwieldy general feel. I will not coach an athlete that has such a device as I know from experience that they will be largely unable to execute the workouts and thus benefit from my program.

Computrainer, besides offering a very realistic road feel, provides great data feedback in allowing you to measure your fitness, observe pedal stroke, ride hills, etc.

To summarize, a big part of my Inverted Pyramid approach relies on:
1. having a viable trainer such as a computrainer

2. using the trainer wisely with concise 2-3 weekly 1hr focused sessions which if done properly can build fitness uninterruptedly for many, many months. See my article Indoor Bike Sanity. http://www.triathloncoach.com/articles/sanity.html

One of the primary benefits of my approach is that fitness is continually enhanced without much increase in training time---a key limiter for many athletes---especially in the cold and dark winter months where marathon indoor sessions become distinctly unappealing.

{I will not coach an athlete that has such a device as I know from experience that they will be largely unable to execute the workouts and thus benefit from my program.} reply

you coached me and i had a cyclops fluid trainer. maybe the rules have changed in the last 4 years.

justin

I have for years experimented with all sorts of ways to be fast without having to spend large amounts of time cycling and running. After another mediocre season I finally gave in and started piling on the miles (most running) last winter. After two months, I ran a 90 second PR at half marathon and NEVER ran faster than 65-80 percent max heart rate during training.

After a full summer of running and cycling at 65-70 percent max heart rate I can now ride a power output that previously required 168 bpm, but now requires only a 148 bpm effort. All from long distance training.

At some point pure volume alone may not bring any further results, but I suspect that most people never come close to that point.

Look no farther than Paul Tergat and Bill Rogers who both ran 140-160 miles per week before their best marathons to see that volume is king if you want to maximize potential.

Other methods may be more time-effective, but nothing beats pure volume.

Chad

Look no farther than Paul Tergat and Bill Rogers who both ran 140-160 miles per week before their best marathons to see that volume is king if you want to maximize potential.

Whose potential? Paul Tergat's?

Are you saying that every runner should run 150 miles per week to achieve their own potential? Cause if you are, you're crazy.

High volume doubltlessly works for some people. Other's simply can't do it, and not simply because of time constraints.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

A friend sent me this article and it pretty much sums up why we haven't had any great American distance runners in 20 years.

http://www.letsrun.com/jkspeaks.html

It is not that different than Arthur Lydiard has been saying for decades and his Olympic athletes, even the 1500 meter guys, ran 130 miles a week.

Kellogg believes you have to start building to high mileage slowly and intelligently as a teenager. Human biomechanics varies between individuals, but biology is biology and you can't reach your ultimate aerobic potential until you have wrung out every last bit of it from lots and lots of aerobic training.

Chad

P.S. It's never to late to start to build volume. I didn't start until I was 33 and I run faster than I did in college.

P.P.S. Lance's Nike commercial says he became fast from being on "his bike for seven hours a day." Again another example of lots of aerobic training making someone incredibly fast.

Two medals in the Olympic Marathons, that's not bad. And I don't think Deena Kastor was born in Eritreia, do you? :-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

True enough, and having run Winter Nationals the same year as she did, I can say that she is incredible to watch. But in the post race interview for a local Houston paper she mentioned how she had been happy with her 100+ mile run weeks leading into the race.

Meb was second to Alan Culpepper that year and I read that he didn't run two-a-day workouts but averaged 14 miles a day. And neither one is a surprise to anyone who has followed running the last few years. They have both been improving against the worlds' best for a while. According to the interviews I heard by running high volume.

However, before them, when was the last standout performance by an American distance runner? Perhaps Bob Kennedy in the 5,000, but once again you are talking about a guy who trained with the great Africans on occasion and ran a lot of miles.

Chad

nowhere did anyone say that you can reach your potential without volume, merely that simply piling up miles by itself will not yield optimal shape...

Tergat does A LOT of quality on top of volume, same for Lance, Jan, Dave Scott in his time etc...

do you really think biking 7hrs a day will make you fast? heck, to paraphrase Fausto Coppi, then my postman will be world champion...

Lance rides a lot and does a lot of intensity...

Duration and intensity applied at the proper time. It's axiomatic that you can't go hard every day in the same sport, and one way to spoof that axiom is by dividing up a run or a ride or whatever into two sessions divided by a predetermined amount of hours of rest in between. Even then, one of the two sessions is usually at a level of intensity less than that of the other.

Outside of certain hard-and-fast physiologic parameters, two athletes may not respond identically to the same training program. What works for Tergat may not work for Kastor etc. A fatal flaw in a lot of triathletes training plans is that they try to emulate exactly what is published in the latest edition of whatever Tri magazine it is that they're reading, and don't usually have enough experience or confidence to listen to what their own bodies are telling them.

You don't get faster by working hard all the time. You get faster by judicious use of hard work and judicious use of rest.

Kahuna

nowhere did anyone say that you can reach your potential without volume, merely that simply piling up miles by itself will not yield optimal shape...

Nor did I say this, however, I suspect that were people to build to high volume first and have the patience to let it do its work, then they would reap far greater benefits than any amount of lower volume and "quality" work.

do you really think biking 7hrs a day will make you fast? heck, to paraphrase Fausto Coppi, then my postman will be world champion...
Actually, I do think you would be pretty fast if you could ride for seven hours a day at a nice steady pace with the occasional rise in heart rate from hills. After a winter of 5 hours a week, mostly on the indoor bike at 135 bpm (68 percent max) I raced 50K at 168 hr and 250 watts. This summer I nearly doubled the 5 hours a week to an average close to 10 for the last 8-10 weeks and just rode the first 2 1/2 hours of a 4:20 ride at 148 average hr rate for 250 watts.

A friend of mine who was a USAT national champion in the mid-90s and 4-time military national champion almost never does any speed or "quality". He just churns out mega-volume most people couldn't comprehend and he still wins races at age 40. He was never injured and used a little racing coming into his important races to hone his speed.

Chad

Ok - I will be the fly in the ointment to challenge the IM results achieved by reverse periodisation.

Let me say at the outset that I am interested in IM, not short course. Accordingly, strength and endurance are far more important to my racing than having a particularly high LT. As a general statement, IM is not about going faster, it is about slowing down less.

I have tried a few different programs and, surprise, I have found that there is a direct correlation between training volume (at or about AeT) and race performance. For me, periodisation means do heaps of AeT volume for about 3 months and then spend about 1 month sharpening up with some LT work. For IM, the "sharpening" phase is almost optional as the key issue is endurance, not speed.

My mind is not closed to hearing contrary views, and I would be interested to hear if M2 (and other coaches) are having success at IM with reverse periodisation. By "success", I mean sub 9 hr age-groupers.

It may be that we are not that far apart - i.e. I assume that with a reverse periodisation approach you still pile on the volume as you approach the key event - that is the key ingredient in any IM program. The only difference is that you have already done your "sharpening" and are trying to carry it through the high-volume phase, rather than adding the sharpening work on at the end.

Flame away.