See...you're still not getting it. You seem to think that one needs to be able to repeat a race or condition to be able to measure a difference. You don't. You just need to have measured the difference under a range of yaw conditions.

Think of it this way...imagine a "thought experiment" where one could somehow magically replace a piece of equipment under a rider for a given race. The "faster" item will save energy and/or make the rider faster than they would have been otherwise.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

You should have them compare the gains into the wind, and sitting behind a rider on the track to see if the savings carry over while riding behind someone.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

No, that's not what I think at all.



I agree with everything you have said here. And it reflects the position I have been arguing.

So...then it sounds as if you just don't trust wind tunnels then, huh? I'll inform all of the aerospace companies ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

It's a nice looking bike; I really like the curved Spec top tube when the cable is hidden; drives me crazy when the brake cable is there though.

Heres to hoping for the technology finding it's way to lower price points in a year or two.

Yes, that was the comment I was referring to. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your point. My observations still stand though, I think, even if you were not the person to whom they should have been directed. I think very few cyclists have "maxed out" their training (or perhaps even reached the pt. where returns have begun to diminish). Purchasing a watt advantage is entirely one's prerogative, BUT, as is always said on ST, consistent and well-structured training will do most people far more good. And furthermore, the variability in conditions that nebmot describes could very well end up cutting into the purported gains.

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"What do I have to do, when I wake up tomorrow, to become excellent. Do that, and then do it again the next day, and the next, etc. One day you'll wake up and the time and the fitness will have taken care of themselves."

Can I do both (train AND smart equipment selection)? Is it allowed?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

This is correct. However, I think we can all agree that the 5W (generously) saved according to Gerard and the recent TOUR test gained from an aero road frame are the least W/$ to be gained. For the very small percentage of people who have optimized everything and have unlimited funds, sure. For the rest of us, a lazer helmet w/ aeroshell, a skinsuit, cleanly attached race rumber, shoe covers, power meter, aero wheels and a coach are a far better investment. Moreover, the sum cost of these is over 2 years is less than an aero frame.

If you buy an aero frame, consider the Kestrel Talon. Its is less than half the price of the S3 or new Specialized, but tested better than the S3 according to TOUR. Old technology, sure, but if it works and is cheap, that's ideal for a race bike.

Just posted on bikerumor: http://www.bikerumor.com/...50g-aero-road-frame/

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http://flexthatframe.blogspot.com/

Looks like it would of been 30W savings if they did the cable routing better. Or maybe that is the plan for the next version. They didn't want to run out of runway.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

I wonder how this will compare to the SL3 in terms of stiffness (not that it matters for me)? Then again according to Mark Cote the stiffness on the new Allez approaches that of the SL3; now only if they made the Allez with the OSBB. Since I'll be upgrading next season; I'll have to make the decision to go with the SL3 or the Verge.

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http://flexthatframe.blogspot.com/

Although Tour tested with a dummy aboard (as opposed to VN's bare bike testing)...the lack of cabling really makes me not put a whole lot of stock in their results. A good part of the advantage of an aero designed road bike is from the more hidden cabling. Look at the difference in performance at zero yaw between the Cannondale used in the the Tour test as a "control" and the "control bike" used in the VN testing (revealed to have been a Masi Evoluzione - a fairly "generic" modern carbon road bike - see pic below) as compared to the aero road bikes. Something's not right with the Tour testing in that regard...plus, they only give drag for one direction of yaw, while the recent Cervelo test report with the Zabriskie dummy reveals a distinct difference in the drag with the wind coming from either side...




OK...check on the helmet (I actually just tape the front 1/3 of my helmet)...check on the skinsuit...check on the number (glued)...check on the shoe covers....check on the power meter (Quarq CinQo)...check on the aero wheels (Hed Jet 90s)...check on the coach.

Does that mean that only NOW I can consider an aero frame for my bike? If I'd taken that approach 9 years ago, I never would've bought my aluminum Soloist. I was going to purchase a frame anyway...why not make it an aero one?

Think of it this way...an S-Works Tarmac SL3 frame module is only $800 less than the S-Works Venge, which is arguably a faster bike. That's actually a fairly good incremental cost if the claimed 20W at 40kph difference between them is true.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I raced an 08 Cervelo SLC-SL for a season (harsh and unforgiving ride) before I switched to a, 09 Specialized SL2 and now SL3.

No denying that the Venge is fast, but the ride will be quite different than the SW Tarmac SL3.

Options for riders depending on ride preferences. The road conditions in the coastal areas of SoCal can be pretty bad. It is nice to have a forgiving ride.

I was able to ride an SLC-SL for about a week last year...I actually thought my old Aluminum Soloist was more "forgiving" than the SLC-SL. That said, the R5CA prototype I rode for 2 weeks after that was a whole 'nuther kettle of fish ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The roads in western pa are more like a roubaix then anything. It will be interesting to test them both. I'm also looking forward to see how this compares to the Cervelo S2 and other aero bikes.

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http://flexthatframe.blogspot.com/

The cabling and drivetrain sweeps are the things they need to fix with that test, agreed. With cabling the Felt would have trounced everybody badly I suspect.

Re $800 for the aero S frame vs the Tarmac, let's pretend we're not spending $3k plus on a frame. For those of us on a budget, say $1.2k max a new aero frame is out of the question unless we consider a used S1 or Kestrel. The amount of money one pays for a 'fancy' aero frame is completely out of proportion to the benefit, especially if you mostly sit in a pack or do mostly flat races.

and the cost of most cars is completely out of proportion for sitting in traffic. Do you complain about anybody not driving a geo metro?

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

If you get a chance jump on a S3, mine was super comfortable.

Cars you actually get something for what you pay

-HID vs regular lights
-heated steering wheel/seats
-AWD
-Diesel vs hybrid vs gasoline
-More/better airbags
-Better/quicker steering (and the cool BMW variable steering at different speeds)
-Ipod adapter
-Voice control for entire car
-Better seats/interior
-Faster
-Lighter
-More room

When there's that sort of differentiation among road bikes let me know. I'd love to have an ipad adapter and AWD on my bike.

to that list add:

-girls

good point. fancy bike attracts men in spandex/speedos with shaved legs at best and completely shaved body at worst. not that there's anything wrong with that.

We had a Venge in the shop today. I can personally say it is every bit as gorgeous as the pictures. Its making its way around Chicago this week.

Lucky guys:

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Miguel Andrade
http://mitano.blogspot.com

Pics please!! What color Venge do you have in your shop? Framsets? ETA on mclaren framesets?

tom I've decided I'm such a bad cyclist that I'm going to quit arguing about it. If everyone shows up with lightweight box rims, gatorskins, and huge round tube bikes I will at least have a chance at some cat 3 victories some day.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter