Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: FTP Research [Sebastian Weber] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sebastian Weber wrote:
Yepp, measuring power is a good indicator of performance, but not on how it is created!

Keep in mind a sufficiently robust power profile (or a decent power-duration curve and robust model) will tell you much of what you need to know about how you create power, and along with power based training load measures and training composition data helps to guide what training is appropriate for ongoing development (along of course with other important contextual information).


Sebastian Weber wrote:
The best measure of high performance in many sports is speed.

The best measure is winning, or whether you are successfully attaining your goals or fulfilling your role.

Sebastian Weber wrote:
BUT: we all came to the understanding that the speed is composed by many factors, in short mostly power and drag.

I'm familiar with such things. As well as coaching riders, I've been testing cycling aerodynamics for over a decade and helped refine and promote testing methods and tech in common use today.

Sebastian Weber wrote:
Therefore we look at power, but:

Power is showing you how you are training, not how to train!

That's true, although the insight one can glean from power data can certainly aid in making decisions about the appropriate focus of one's training (along with other important contextual information).

One can be most successful with coaching and performance improvement with intelligent use of power data and without ever stepping into a lab. In his career to date Chris Froome has only had two lab tests, one early on, the second in 2015 being mostly a publicity stunt. But he collected power data from just about every pedal stroke in racing and training...

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bioteknik wrote:
Sebastian Weber wrote:


Re anaerobic capacity: it isn't really anaerobic capacity but the ability to produce power in the glycolytic pathway. Increasing this ability will - given that no other physiological parameter change - lower performance (power if you want to take it this way) at anaerobic threshold aka max lactate steady state. I assume this is what Bioteknik was indicating


Yes, but is there a direct relationship between anaerobic capacity and glycolytic ability? I guess there are biomechanical and metabolic efficiencies that also determine pace/power for a given unit of energy but the amount of energy per unit of glucose is a constant. I guess I'm more of a biochem geek and not as up to speed with my physiology.

Not sure what you mean here exactly with anaerobic capacity and especially glycolytic ability?
The amount of energy you get from a mol of lactate or creatine phosphate is as constant as the one from the mentioned glucose
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Sebastian Weber] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry, i was forgetting about the other systems which contribute towards anaerobic capacity. Vlamax and anaerobic capacity are used interchangeably in a few articles ive read, but an increase in anaerobic capacity isn't necessarily due to an increase in vlamax.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bioteknik wrote:
Sorry, i was forgetting about the other systems which contribute towards anaerobic capacity. Vlamax and anaerobic capacity are used interchangeably in a few articles ive read, but an increase in anaerobic capacity isn't necessarily due to an increase in vlamax.

Well anaerobic capacity in terms of "how much energy can be used from anaerobic energy sources" this is composed of several factors:
amount of PCr, glycolytic energy production, buffering capacity, oxygen kinetics, etc.

This said VLamax, the maximum glycolytic energy flux (power) isn't interchangeable with anaerobic energy, one is a flux rate, one is more "bucket of energy".

Coming back to the question how this effects threshold, a very simplified example why this effects your endurance capacity:
Given an athlete has a great ability to produce energy / power in his glycolytic system, so therefore the ability to produce a lot of lactate using glucose as a substrate for this. Now this athletes does an IM, Marathon, etc....this glycolytic system is not turning idle just because it is race day ;-) This means: this highly developed (trained) glycolytic system will contribute to the energy / power production - always. This comes with all its side effects: lactate production, therefore glucose (carbohydrate) combustion, lowering threshold, lowering fat combusiton rates, etc.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
You could just say you don't agree with the FTP concept because much of what you have written is not correct
Which bits were wrong?
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just stop, we all know you hate AC and WKO.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
Just stop, we all know you hate AC and WKO.
You didn't answer.

FWIW, I used WKO+ for at least 10 years.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Because you are trolling
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
Because you are trolling
On the contrary.

AGomez wrote 500 odd words outlining 10 points that I found interesting and largely/directionally true. You posted a 2 line missive saying "you're wrong".

At first I was intrigued to know what your thinking was, but now I can see from this and other posts on this forum that you like to add your voice regularly to conversations but very rarely add anything of any substance or content. I now realise it was pointless to seek more, because it is clear there isn't anything there.

Good day.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:
jaretj wrote:
Because you are trolling
On the contrary.

AGomez wrote 500 odd words outlining 10 points that I found interesting and largely/directionally true. You posted a 2 line missive saying "you're wrong".

At first I was intrigued to know what your thinking was, but now I can see from this and other posts on this forum that you like to add your voice regularly to conversations but very rarely add anything of any substance or content. I now realise it was pointless to seek more, because it is clear there isn't anything there.

Good day.

It's pretty clear that you haven't actually read many of jaretj's posts then....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.
^
Absolutely 100% true post here.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

Well to be fair, you didn't critique the original post really but just attacked the poster. I re-read the post, and there are some very valid points. I only disagree that mlss can't be defined, however the duration of mlss isn't set in stone. Using 4 mmol is a bit of an old technique to define mlss, since it's an average not necessarily exact point for each individual.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.

I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:


I write great software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches.

Mark

I added the "great" for you and emphasised the "free". I am a bit disappointed that you didn't specifically mention that I use the software though.
Cheers,
Mark
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.


I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark

You like a post that confirmed your own bias.

I wasn't aware there was a science of TrainingPeaks. Despite the claims of sciencetismist's like Nathan Townsend, there doesn't have to be. Training Peaks is a coaching tool.

Perhaps you should actually do some science, or coaching for that matter before you cast doubt over those that do!

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.

I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark

Still trolling me and now AC
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Mark57] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mark57 wrote:
..........Personally I love science and research so I'm not phased by contoversy except when it gets personal, which it unfortunately usually ends up being. So far so good on this thread.

Here's a nice paper that's recent and on this topic.

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../10.14814/phy2.14098

I spoke too soon.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
TizzleDK wrote:
In layman's terms does this mean the 20 minute test isn't valid and the hour test is? Or?


I think it says 95% of a 20min test does not correlate to lactate profiles.

I think that was almost predictable.


a 20 mins test on an indoor trainer tell you how good you are at doing 20 mins test.

You could use the numbers to guestimate so training zone... but we all have different power curves.

Also, we all different lactate tolerance... why our lactate level should correlate with ftp?

That been say, could be interesting to look at power curve vs lactate curve... but that will be alot more work for a phd student than just doing 30 ftp test an publish the results.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
liversedge wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.


I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark


Still trolling me and now AC

I don't need the negativity tbh. Its clear you have nothing to say worth responding to.
When you do I'll happily engage in debate, till then I'm out.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:


I do believe the CP/W' model predicts pretty well "failure". Last Sunday 8 riders i some bike race in France did a TTT. There CP/W' depletion model was BANG on.


Do you have a link for that?? :)

And for the good of the thread... while there are a variety of pathways to generate unsustainable power for short durations, do not type 1 and type IIa fibres correspond to the first two zones we train in?

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Last edited by: MarkyV: Aug 9, 19 14:45
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're still trolling? I'll stop when you stop with all your negativity.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AGomez] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AGomez wrote:
If I may make a few observations based on a few years reading this literature I would summarize as follows.
(disclosure: some of these are not my original observation but from a colleague who is much smarter than me regard testing and training but who does not want to be named here).

1. There is no perfect FTP test, each one has pros and cons, so there aren't really any deadly sins, just different methods which are all estimates. Without a true agreed gold standard, we don't know the true accuracy of any test, so it almost impossible to be 100% sure which tests are best for whom.

2. There is no fundamental "threshold" on the power duration curve, and definitely not one set at a specific time (eg 8mins, 20min or even 60mins) for everyone. The curve is complicated as will be known to anyone who has tried to model it mathematically across a large sample of riders

3. There is no entirely linear (aka flat) area of the power duration curve and it is probably not very useful to model it in a linear way (eg as a percentage). Indeed there is very rarely anything entirely linear in human physiology.

4. Research from various large sources shows around 90% of non-pros do *not* manage to achieve 95% of their 20minFTP test power in a 60min maximal effort. Heck 90% of non-pros don't do a 60min max effort, but lets ignore that!

5. The definition of FTP doesn't tie up with any known physiological measures in most (but not all) research studies, including this one, which is not a perfect study (is there any such thing?)

6. The entire concept of "lactate threshold" is probably incorrect or perhaps a huge oversimplification, no lactate testing protocol especially those with a fixed value (eg 4mmol/l ) has really proven that useful in itself (although they can add additional information in some circumstances)

7. The entire concept of "anaerobic threshold" is a huge oversimplification; in short energy systems overlap much more than previously realized and are hard to separate into distinct steps in reality.

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply AND those who provide or perpetuate a vague definition without seeking to improve it for the benefit of the entire community.

9. The concept of FTP is mainly flawed because a. there is no threshold in the way commonly understood b. "without fatiguing" is plain wrong in the way that fatigue is commonly understood c. there is no precise time definition in the phrase "about an hour" d. there is no robust physiological verification . However FTP seems to be a more handy phrase than .......a convenient point on the power duration curve or CPPDC :)

10. The science of cycling and the science of human physiology is never perfected and never fully known. Therefore no individual (and no group) is the font of all true facts, rather the entire field evolves, and everyone who has a constructive comment, or can conduct a study contributes to the field and should be welcomed, not criticised or flamed or shouted down.

that's all, have a good day!


Good post. Some good points made.

Some might find this study interesting.

"Appreciation of the relationship and differences between MLSS and CP has been obfuscated by the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h. This is evident in the assumption that MLSS corresponds to a so‐called ‘functional threshold’ power that can be sustained for 60 minutes (Gavin et al. 2012; Morgan et al. 2018). This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min. Indeed, maximal exercise of 60 min duration is positioned squarely within the heavy‐intensity domain (Black et al. 2017) such that the physiological responses to maximal exercise of 50–55 min or 65–70 min duration, in terms of end‐exercise values and response dynamics, would likely be very similar. A more justifiable scientific approach is to define the maximal metabolic steady state as the speed or power output which separates distinct physiological response behaviors, irrespective of the corresponding exercise duration. Such an approach, which is enshrined in the CP concept, would be expected to better predict performance capability and be of greater utility in exercise/training prescription (Jones et al. 2010; Vanhatalo et al. 2011a). "
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.14814/phy2.14098
" CP is therefore the appropriate metric when the goal is to evaluate the maximal metabolic steady state. "
"the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h."
" This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min."
Last edited by: Trev The Rev: Jan 4, 21 5:12
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Was this your study?
Last edited by: jaretj: Jan 4, 21 12:23
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trev The Rev wrote:
AGomez wrote:
If I may make a few observations based on a few years reading this literature I would summarize as follows.
(disclosure: some of these are not my original observation but from a colleague who is much smarter than me regard testing and training but who does not want to be named here).

1. There is no perfect FTP test, each one has pros and cons, so there aren't really any deadly sins, just different methods which are all estimates. Without a true agreed gold standard, we don't know the true accuracy of any test, so it almost impossible to be 100% sure which tests are best for whom.

2. There is no fundamental "threshold" on the power duration curve, and definitely not one set at a specific time (eg 8mins, 20min or even 60mins) for everyone. The curve is complicated as will be known to anyone who has tried to model it mathematically across a large sample of riders

3. There is no entirely linear (aka flat) area of the power duration curve and it is probably not very useful to model it in a linear way (eg as a percentage). Indeed there is very rarely anything entirely linear in human physiology.

4. Research from various large sources shows around 90% of non-pros do *not* manage to achieve 95% of their 20minFTP test power in a 60min maximal effort. Heck 90% of non-pros don't do a 60min max effort, but lets ignore that!

5. The definition of FTP doesn't tie up with any known physiological measures in most (but not all) research studies, including this one, which is not a perfect study (is there any such thing?)

6. The entire concept of "lactate threshold" is probably incorrect or perhaps a huge oversimplification, no lactate testing protocol especially those with a fixed value (eg 4mmol/l ) has really proven that useful in itself (although they can add additional information in some circumstances)

7. The entire concept of "anaerobic threshold" is a huge oversimplification; in short energy systems overlap much more than previously realized and are hard to separate into distinct steps in reality.

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply AND those who provide or perpetuate a vague definition without seeking to improve it for the benefit of the entire community.

9. The concept of FTP is mainly flawed because a. there is no threshold in the way commonly understood b. "without fatiguing" is plain wrong in the way that fatigue is commonly understood c. there is no precise time definition in the phrase "about an hour" d. there is no robust physiological verification . However FTP seems to be a more handy phrase than .......a convenient point on the power duration curve or CPPDC :)

10. The science of cycling and the science of human physiology is never perfected and never fully known. Therefore no individual (and no group) is the font of all true facts, rather the entire field evolves, and everyone who has a constructive comment, or can conduct a study contributes to the field and should be welcomed, not criticised or flamed or shouted down.

that's all, have a good day!


Good post. Some good points made.

Some might find this study interesting.

"Appreciation of the relationship and differences between MLSS and CP has been obfuscated by the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h. This is evident in the assumption that MLSS corresponds to a so‐called ‘functional threshold’ power that can be sustained for 60 minutes (Gavin et al. 2012; Morgan et al. 2018). This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min. Indeed, maximal exercise of 60 min duration is positioned squarely within the heavy‐intensity domain (Black et al. 2017) such that the physiological responses to maximal exercise of 50–55 min or 65–70 min duration, in terms of end‐exercise values and response dynamics, would likely be very similar. A more justifiable scientific approach is to define the maximal metabolic steady state as the speed or power output which separates distinct physiological response behaviors, irrespective of the corresponding exercise duration. Such an approach, which is enshrined in the CP concept, would be expected to better predict performance capability and be of greater utility in exercise/training prescription (Jones et al. 2010; Vanhatalo et al. 2011a). "
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.14814/phy2.14098
" CP is therefore the appropriate metric when the goal is to evaluate the maximal metabolic steady state. "
"the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h."
" This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min."




I agree that 95% of 20 minute power is not a good estimate of FTP, although the big issue there isn't FTP. It's that everyone does the test wrong. The book Training and Racing with a Power Meter has the test in there and it's very clear that you're supposed to do a 5 minute all out effort first. Yet all these online training platforms cut that out and then have everyone do 20 minutes all out and multiply that by .95 and tell people that's their FTP. People need to read the book.

I've done the test correctly and it will over-estimate my FTP by a bit (I've compared it to an hour all out), but only by about 5 watts so it's close. I think they should have just defined FTP as your 60 minute power, told people to test it with an hour all out, and not claimed it estimates MLSS. Maybe there wouldn't be so much arguing about FTP then.

Personally, I don't understand the constant attempts by people to discredit FTP. Is it because of Coggan? I understand that it's probably not grounding in physiology, but it has proven to be an effective way to train. I like to follow the science and read studies, but it's hard to translate that to training when no one can even agree on a set of terminology to use (MLSS, OBLA, VT2, CP, etc.). FTP comes with a book that gives you a way to test it in the real world and build a training plan around it. Sure it has limitations - like you should probably plan your VO2 Max efforts off a percent of your 5' power rather than a percent of FTP - but we don't need to scrap the entire concept of FTP to evolve and change the way we set up workouts as we learn more.

I guess my big issue with the attempts to discredit FTP is this....if I stop using FTP for training, what should I use? I can test my FTP and use that to measure progress, determine my zones, build workouts, etc. I've done some coaching and my athletes all saw progress over prior seasons using those methods, and it gives coaches and athletes a set of terminology to use. And in the end, I don't even care that much if it's grounded in physiology because all I really need is an effective way to train. So if FTP has so many problems, what replaces it?
Quote Reply

Prev Next