Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

FTP Research
Quote | Reply
Hello All,

https://journals.lww.com/...valent_to.94787.aspx

Excerpt:

While mean bias was 2.9 ± 24.6 W, there were large limits of agreement (LOA) between FTP and LT4.0 (−45 to 51 W). All other lactate parameters, lactate threshold (LT) (236 ± 32 W), individual anaerobic threshold (244 ± 33 W), and LT thresholds determined using the Dmax method (221 ± 25 W) and modified Dmax method (238 ± 32 W) were significantly different from FTP (p < 0.05). While FTP strongly correlated with LT4.0, the large LOA refutes any equivalence as a measure with physiological basis.

Therefore, we would encourage athletes and coaches to use alternative field-based methods to predict cycling performance.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Neal. It was based on a 20 min test. I guess that just adds more evidence to what others have always said (eg Coggan) about the inaccuracy of basing zones on 20 min average multiplied by a fudge factor.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In layman's terms does this mean the 20 minute test isn't valid and the hour test is? Or?

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [TizzleDK] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TizzleDK wrote:
In layman's terms does this mean the 20 minute test isn't valid and the hour test is? Or?

I think it says 95% of a 20min test does not correlate to lactate profiles.

I think that was almost predictable.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [TizzleDK] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TizzleDK wrote:
In layman's terms does this mean the 20 minute test isn't valid and the hour test is? Or?

I think its fair to say that the one hour test is a much better estimate of your maximal lactate steady state however the 20 min test is not useless. Seiler suggests "calibrating" your 20 min test to the one hour test (ideally with a lactate level). What that means is your fudge factor may not be 95% it might be 85%. I would also think most would agree with me when I suggest it is almost never going to be 95% it's much more likely to be lower for a non-elite.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks!

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Mark57] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for the insight....

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wasn't aware that a straight up "maximal self-paced 20-minute cycling time trial" was the protocol for estimating FTP.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The problem with FTP is always that its really hard to find your TTE time (the time you hit lactate threshold) and maximize your power during that time. Some people hit it at 35 minutes, some people hit it at 90 minutes. Its also never factored in to FTP. For example, one rider can have an FTP of 300, but that power cracks in 40 minutes, another can 275, but cracks at 90 minutes.


jaretj wrote:
I wasn't aware that a straight up "maximal self-paced 20-minute cycling time trial" was the protocol for estimating FTP.

There are so many now, and companies come up with shorter and shorter absurd standards. There's an 8 minutes test, ramp test, etc.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
furiousferret wrote:
The problem with FTP is always that its really hard to find your TTE time (the time you hit lactate threshold) and maximize your power during that time. Some people hit it at 35 minutes, some people hit it at 90 minutes. Its also never factored in to FTP. For example, one rider can have an FTP of 300, but that power cracks in 40 minutes, another can 275, but cracks at 90 minutes.


jaretj wrote:
I wasn't aware that a straight up "maximal self-paced 20-minute cycling time trial" was the protocol for estimating FTP.


There are so many now, and companies come up with shorter and shorter absurd standards. There's an 8 minutes test, ramp test, etc.

I don't think they're absurd, they each have their pros and cons. It's about understanding why you're testing and what you're going to do with the number that comes out of it, then choosing the test that's best for the job.

If your goal is to establish maximal lactate steady state power then you should do a 60 minute test or something close to it. Problem is that it's a pretty daunting test that takes a lot out of you, so most people won't do one very often, and doing a good test takes a fair bit of experience to get pacing, nutrition, etc, spot on.

Ramp test isn't a particularly good predictor of maximal lactate steady state power. But it has a couple of other advantages. There's no pacing involved which means you can get very consistent and repeatable results. And it doesn't take too much out of you which means you can test more frequently and with less disruption to your schedule.

Personally the only time I really want to test myself for 20 minutes or longer is when I'm racing and highly motivated. For 6-8 months of the year I race fairly frequently, including TT and long mountain climbs, which gives me a very good idea of the watts I'm capable of putting out over 20-60 minutes, and how that correlates to the occasional longer distances I do like 70.3s. The rest of the year I'm still training but have no desire to put myself through the pain of a 20 minute test, let alone a 60 minute one, so I use the ramp test as a much less onerous way of monitoring my fitness and adjusting my training zones.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Because blood lactate of 4.0mmol is ftp ? (Genuinely asking)
I'm a big fan of the 20min test, athletes making excuses and wanting the stars to line up on test day are missing the point. Workout performance (relative and absolute) should be a more appropriate fitness marker.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [mmiloou] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IMHO the 4.0mmol figure is a rule of thumb that seems to have become set in stone as the amount of lactate you can tolerate indefinitely.
http://lactate.com/questions/question_03a_what_is_threshold.html
Also a 20min test is fine but some people test higher or lower than either a ramp test or full hour effort, just as long as you compare the same test methodology all is good. Perhaps its should just be called a twenty minute power test and leave out FTP from the title as it causes confusion.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Was testing protocol just a 20 min test or did it include the two high power washouts to lower anaerobic contribution before the 20 min?
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AndrewL] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Man it's just not the same around here without Andy Coggan and Trev. They'd have been on this like cheese on a pizza.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
knighty76 wrote:
Man it's just not the same around here without Andy Coggan and Trev. They'd have been on this like cheese on a pizza.
Have they taken their leave?
Haven't noticed any comments from either recently but wasn't aware of a reason.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
They make their rounds. :-)

The last back and forth that I know about was on Timetrialingforum and that was a month or more ago when Trev (as usual) initiated the flare up.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [mmiloou] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mmiloou wrote:
Because blood lactate of 4.0mmol is ftp ? (Genuinely asking)
I'm a big fan of the 20min test, athletes making excuses and wanting the stars to line up on test day are missing the point. Workout performance (relative and absolute) should be a more appropriate fitness marker.

No. As a matter of fact, Seiler commented that specifically for cycling, MLSS is very often higher than 4. I think he mentions 5.x being common.

I personally am a fan of the 20min test, during summer months at my local 15km TT. I do follow it up with a 3-5 minutes test a few days later
and calculate a CP and W'.

I have tested that if I take that CP, drop it by 5 watts and do a 4x10min at CP with 90sec during which I take a lactate sample, I will be at SS. I have done this many times.

This is really not necessary but cool to do. I need a life

When fall rolls around I do a ramp test, realign the data and use that during the winter.

I do believe the CP/W' model predicts pretty well "failure". Last Sunday 8 riders i some bike race in France did a TTT. There CP/W' depletion model was BANG on.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm new to this so I'm just guessing... on Garmin Connect they have a Power Curve that gives you historical points of data for specific time periods. For me:

1 minute - 331w
20 minutes - 200w
60 minutes - 162w

Only the 20 minute time was a deliberate test (outdoors with a few minor interruptions) but it looks like the longer I go the worse I look on paper. I'm thinking my real FTP is not 95% of 200.

edit - I may have stopped for a beer during those 60 minutes so I may be selling myself short! I guess I need an indoor trainer if I'm going to get serious about this. I have a 20 mile bike leg in a race next Saturday so that will be informative too.

"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders
Last edited by: Fuller: Jul 10, 19 5:02
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:

When fall rolls around I do a ramp test, realign the data and use that during the winter.

I did my first ramp test (used the built in version in PerfPro) and was very surprised by the outcome after looking at the data and other things. I think this might be the test I use from now on. I was previously using 20 minute tests if at all. Where I live it is near impossible to do an outdoor test for 60 minutes (and I don't race so I cannot use a race). Even with a 20 minute test I would have to drive pretty far out of the city to find a 20 minute section of road that was suitable for a test. Indoors I overheat in a 60 minute test unless it is middle of winter.

From the ramp test I set my starting point for trainer application intensity and then from there I just adjust as I go in the weeks ahead.

Anyway I like the ramp test. It is brutal in those last minutes, but I do like it.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
furiousferret wrote:
The problem with FTP is always that its really hard to find your TTE time (the time you hit lactate threshold) and maximize your power during that time. Some people hit it at 35 minutes, some people hit it at 90 minutes. Its also never factored in to FTP. For example, one rider can have an FTP of 300, but that power cracks in 40 minutes, another can 275, but cracks at 90 minutes.
The problem with FTP is the "T" part. T=Threshold, which implies that there is a power level above which something different happens. I.e., go above FTP and you tire much faster, stay below FTP and you last a long time. If that were really true, many different ways of estimating "FTP" would all yield about the same answer. The problem is it's not really true, as you've alluded to. Yes the power duration curve flattens a bit in the middle, but it's never really that flat for anyone, and the "flat" part is different length for different people. Hence, no real threshold, and lots of confusion.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lanierb wrote:
furiousferret wrote:
The problem with FTP is always that its really hard to find your TTE time (the time you hit lactate threshold) and maximize your power during that time. Some people hit it at 35 minutes, some people hit it at 90 minutes. Its also never factored in to FTP. For example, one rider can have an FTP of 300, but that power cracks in 40 minutes, another can 275, but cracks at 90 minutes.

The problem with FTP is the "T" part. T=Threshold, which implies that there is a power level above which something different happens. I.e., go above FTP and you tire much faster, stay below FTP and you last a long time. If that were really true, many different ways of estimating "FTP" would all yield about the same answer. The problem is it's not really true, as you've alluded to. Yes the power duration curve flattens a bit in the middle, but it's never really that flat for anyone, and the "flat" part is different length for different people. Hence, no real threshold, and lots of confusion.

Not a very good study.

FTP is not 95% of 20-min power.

And if you are going to reference TARWAPM for this test, then do it as stated in the text. The 5min blow out is there for a reason.

Of the many ways of estimating FTP, a functional (ie easy and not requiring lab tests) I see things like the seven deadly sins as a process of elimination to ensure you are in the ballpark.

What is threshold? Well, something causes ventilation, lactate, ammonia to rise somewhere between 30- 70-min.

TTE? Because it's individual and trainable, it's going to be different.

Options? Lab testing, costly and non specific. Then what methods do you use. Jamnick et al. (2018) came up with several different "threshold" powers based on lactate alone.

Critical power testing: If done properly, a series of tte tests. Which is non-specific. TT's can underestimate and suit those who pace well.

Ramp tests or short (3-20min etc): tend to overestimate power at threshold.

Field based tests: Longer tests (20min plus) are hard and require motivation. Mind you so does racing ;)

What do I do? Because I have been brainwashed by Andy Coggan and the good people working in developing WKO I look the power duration curve and periodically test areas the max mean power suggests is under the modelled curve.

So choose your poison.

In theory, if you are training well, your threshold should be increasing, so I don't see the point in pulling an athlete away from training too often to keep testing (yes testing is training etc) every 5min.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Fuller] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fuller wrote:
I'm thinking my real FTP is not 95% of 200.

edit - I may have stopped for a beer during those 60 minutes so I may be selling myself short! .



The problem is the 20 min test is valid for ~ 65% of people with the washout done before it. The # probably drops to < 65% without the washout. Maybe in the 55-60% range.

The trick is knowing which side of the line you fall on.


Stopping for beer is always acceptable!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Felt_Rider wrote:
marcag wrote:


When fall rolls around I do a ramp test, realign the data and use that during the winter.


I did my first ramp test

Ramp tests aren't one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Are there eight? Is 95% of 20 min MMP (after a 5 minute blow out) #9?
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I Chung the suit out of my testing performances and it's tried and true but far different conversation:)

That said, Marcag clearly knows etc he is doing with the Astana boys, though I suspect his knowledge stops with the raps ;)
Last edited by: turdburgler: Jul 10, 19 19:37
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Oh, I wasn't questioning Marc's knowledge. I was just pointing out there are an awful lot of ways to estimate FTP, and more get proposed all the time. As I said 15 years ago, whichever method you choose, you should probably do that consistently rather than switching among the various methods.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If I may make a few observations based on a few years reading this literature I would summarize as follows.
(disclosure: some of these are not my original observation but from a colleague who is much smarter than me regard testing and training but who does not want to be named here).

1. There is no perfect FTP test, each one has pros and cons, so there aren't really any deadly sins, just different methods which are all estimates. Without a true agreed gold standard, we don't know the true accuracy of any test, so it almost impossible to be 100% sure which tests are best for whom.

2. There is no fundamental "threshold" on the power duration curve, and definitely not one set at a specific time (eg 8mins, 20min or even 60mins) for everyone. The curve is complicated as will be known to anyone who has tried to model it mathematically across a large sample of riders

3. There is no entirely linear (aka flat) area of the power duration curve and it is probably not very useful to model it in a linear way (eg as a percentage). Indeed there is very rarely anything entirely linear in human physiology.

4. Research from various large sources shows around 90% of non-pros do *not* manage to achieve 95% of their 20minFTP test power in a 60min maximal effort. Heck 90% of non-pros don't do a 60min max effort, but lets ignore that!

5. The definition of FTP doesn't tie up with any known physiological measures in most (but not all) research studies, including this one, which is not a perfect study (is there any such thing?)

6. The entire concept of "lactate threshold" is probably incorrect or perhaps a huge oversimplification, no lactate testing protocol especially those with a fixed value (eg 4mmol/l ) has really proven that useful in itself (although they can add additional information in some circumstances)

7. The entire concept of "anaerobic threshold" is a huge oversimplification; in short energy systems overlap much more than previously realized and are hard to separate into distinct steps in reality.

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply AND those who provide or perpetuate a vague definition without seeking to improve it for the benefit of the entire community.

9. The concept of FTP is mainly flawed because a. there is no threshold in the way commonly understood b. "without fatiguing" is plain wrong in the way that fatigue is commonly understood c. there is no precise time definition in the phrase "about an hour" d. there is no robust physiological verification . However FTP seems to be a more handy phrase than .......a convenient point on the power duration curve or CPPDC :)

10. The science of cycling and the science of human physiology is never perfected and never fully known. Therefore no individual (and no group) is the font of all true facts, rather the entire field evolves, and everyone who has a constructive comment, or can conduct a study contributes to the field and should be welcomed, not criticised or flamed or shouted down.

that's all, have a good day!
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AGomez] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AGomez wrote:

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply

A lot of points made and I'm by no means astute enough to discuss other than my training will still center around the concept of FTP even if I don't have a full grasp on it or the most precise method of testing. If it was once useful, meaning there are plenty of guys and gals that have progressed using the concept, it cannot go bad like milk that would sour or bread that would mold. In training if it is effective once it does not lose effectiveness. Other new training concepts may come about that are more efficient in getting to the goal, but the old concepts do not suddenly become ineffective just because a new one has come around.

Coming from the world of strength training and being a successful competitor and helping others prepare and win I still use strength training concepts from back 30 years ago based on training set by 1RM. Just as training using an estimated 1RM is to a lifter, FTP or CP or similar has been to me as a cyclist. Both strength and endurance train at a certain percentage of this supposed limit with the goal of raising that limit. Whatever one wants to call it I don't care. What matters to me is that I am seeing positive trends in WKO4, but more importantly finishing time and endurance is improving out on the road. Under the concept of FTP. I am no doubt guilty of misunderstanding a loft of concepts in endurance training since that is not my primary training, but I see no reason to walk away from it.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AGomez] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You could just say you don't agree with the FTP concept because much of what you have written is not correct
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
nealhe wrote:

Therefore, we would encourage athletes and coaches to use alternative field-based methods to predict cycling performance.

You mean a measure of power itself?

Sure there is a PPP in there somewhere!!!

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AGomez] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Great answer that covers so many concepts.

For me, FTP is useful number that I can use for my comparisons. Whether I'm working on my power, my capacity or recovery it's good to know that day's %FTP along with other numbers and whether I'm trending up or down.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a complete answer.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Curious how much of our understanding of FTP and what we try to estimate based on 40k rather than 30k or 100k being the time trial measuring stick?
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's a little like Churchill's thoughts on democracy: "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Using FTP is simple and straightforward. I haven't heard a better alternative being proposed.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
gregf83 wrote:
It's a little like Churchill's thoughts on democracy: "Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Using FTP is simple and straightforward. I haven't heard a better alternative being proposed.

Yes, it's quite functional. Unlike...

Just for s**ts and giggles I did a proper CP test today. One short and one less short (pretty unfit) tte test. Funny seeing I have never performed a scientifically determined FTP test.

My thoughts.
Done indoors: not functional.

Done at a fixed power: not functional.

TTE: not functional.

Done at a low cadence: not functional.
Sitting upright: not functional.

Done on my road bike: not functional for time trialling or track.

No fan: not functional, possible except for hot indoor velodromes or climbing sheltered climbs.
Oh, if only there was only a functional way of measuring power at threshold.
Hamish

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RChung wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
marcag wrote:


When fall rolls around I do a ramp test, realign the data and use that during the winter.


I did my first ramp test


Ramp tests aren't one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Are there eight? Is 95% of 20 min MMP (after a 5 minute blow out) #9?


It never made Andy's original list, but he did acknowledge it had validity (within a given ratio range) in this June 2004 Wattage post such that it could be added:
https://groups.google.com/...OkTP7-I/9i5fveOBGfAJ


Of course "8 deadly sins" doesn't sound quite so catchy.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Last edited by: AlexS: Jul 16, 19 3:33
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lanierb wrote:
furiousferret wrote:
The problem with FTP is always that its really hard to find your TTE time (the time you hit lactate threshold) and maximize your power during that time. Some people hit it at 35 minutes, some people hit it at 90 minutes. Its also never factored in to FTP. For example, one rider can have an FTP of 300, but that power cracks in 40 minutes, another can 275, but cracks at 90 minutes.

The problem with FTP is the "T" part. T=Threshold, which implies that there is a power level above which something different happens. I.e., go above FTP and you tire much faster, stay below FTP and you last a long time. If that were really true, many different ways of estimating "FTP" would all yield about the same answer. The problem is it's not really true, as you've alluded to. Yes the power duration curve flattens a bit in the middle, but it's never really that flat for anyone, and the "flat" part is different length for different people. Hence, no real threshold, and lots of confusion.

It's an interesting thing to discuss.

Most of those involved in exercise physiology I see having a dig at FTP are those who champion Critical Power as being reflective of a "better" threshold (and is at an intensity a bit higher than FTP). A threshold they say is related to maximal steady state VO2 kinetics rather than say, maximal steady state lactate or other physiological/metabolic markers.

I'll leave it to them to debate the relative merits of each.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Good thing I still use 220-Age for estimating FTP.

USA Triathlon Level 2 Coach
Slowtwitch Master Coach
Head Coach, TriCoach Colorado, LLC
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [coachjustin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
coachjustin wrote:
Good thing I still use 220-Age for estimating HRmax.


Fixed it for you. Accuracy counts when estimating these nebulous concepts.
Last edited by: Mark57: Jul 16, 19 23:49
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Mark57] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My personal take-away regarding anything outside a 1 hour test is it’s a great estimate. It’s going to give you a number to shoot for and something to work with.

I recently did a ramp test and realigned my workouts accordingly... I had my first workout last night with two 20 min sessions at 95% and I’m skeptical at my ramp tests accuracy to give me my true 1-hour power, but you know what? Now I know the ramp MAY have overshot.

Nothing is absolute, and even a 1 hour test you can still overshoot or undershoot your ability for that hour and not come out with that accurate number.

To me ftp is a general number I base my cycling off of, knowing it isn’t necessarily the most accurate thing given circumstances at any given time.

80/20 Endurance Ambassador
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlexS wrote:
It's an interesting thing to discuss.

Most of those involved in exercise physiology I see having a dig at FTP are those who champion Critical Power as being reflective of a "better" threshold (and is at an intensity a bit higher than FTP). A threshold they say is related to maximal steady state VO2 kinetics rather than say, maximal steady state lactate or other physiological/metabolic markers.

I'll leave it to them to debate the relative merits of each.

If you had a magic wand and could get a non invasive device to measure, lactate or VO2 or....... what is your belief the best measure would be to set this "threshold".
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
damon.lebeouf wrote:
My personal take-away regarding anything outside a 1 hour test is it’s a great estimate. It’s going to give you a number to shoot for and something to work with.

I recently did a ramp test and realigned my workouts accordingly... I had my first workout last night with two 20 min sessions at 95% and I’m skeptical at my ramp tests accuracy to give me my true 1-hour power, but you know what? Now I know the ramp MAY have overshot.

Nothing is absolute, and even a 1 hour test you can still overshoot or undershoot your ability for that hour and not come out with that accurate number.

To me ftp is a general number I base my cycling off of, knowing it isn’t necessarily the most accurate thing given circumstances at any given time.

I was joking around. Alex S gave a nice critique of the 2 camps. What you said is what most people do, including me. Pick a test, train and see if your number improves. It's just that what test you chose, how you got that number, what the number means and how relevant it is to your race or what you want to achieve is still a work in progress. Personally I love science and research so I'm not phased by contoversy except when it gets personal, which it unfortunately usually ends up being. So far so good on this thread.

Here's a nice paper that's recent and on this topic.

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../10.14814/phy2.14098
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
AlexS wrote:

It's an interesting thing to discuss.

Most of those involved in exercise physiology I see having a dig at FTP are those who champion Critical Power as being reflective of a "better" threshold (and is at an intensity a bit higher than FTP). A threshold they say is related to maximal steady state VO2 kinetics rather than say, maximal steady state lactate or other physiological/metabolic markers.

I'll leave it to them to debate the relative merits of each.


If you had a magic wand and could get a non invasive device to measure, lactate or VO2 or....... what is your belief the best measure would be to set this "threshold".

Power output is the integral of all these underlying factors, so I'm not sure anything is better than the power we can already measure as it's the ultimate expression of physiological capability.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlexS wrote:


Power output is the integral of all these underlying factors, so I'm not sure anything is better than the power we can already measure as it's the ultimate expression of physiological capability.


But "better" depends on what question is being asked. Power output is very, very useful because it's so closely tied to performance. But it's not great at answering the question, "Why?" E.g. if my power for an hour increases by 2% after some period of training I don't know whether it's because I'm more efficient, have higher aerobic capacity, higher anaerobic capacity, etc. Answering those questions can be useful. If I had to choose just one, I'd pick power. But I don't think it's exclusive of the other metrics. If there was some non-invasive watch that could measure my lactate, that'd be nice to add to the mix.
Last edited by: trail: Jul 17, 19 16:19
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
AlexS wrote:


Power output is the integral of all these underlying factors, so I'm not sure anything is better than the power we can already measure as it's the ultimate expression of physiological capability.


But "better" depends on what question is being asked. Power output is very, very useful because it's so closely tied to performance. But it's not great at answering the question, "Why?" E.g. if my power for an hour increases by 2% after some period of training I don't know whether it's because I'm more efficient, have higher aerobic capacity, higher anaerobic capacity, etc. Answering those questions can be useful. If I had to choose just one, I'd pick power. But I don't think it's exclusive of the other metrics. If there was some non-invasive watch that could measure my lactate, that'd be nice to add to the mix.

If your 60-min MMP improves by 2%, it won't be due to a change in anaerobic capacity. To do that you'd have to at least double your anaerobic capacity.

As for efficiency, you'll need gas exchange measurement and that's an invasive process.

The most likely culprits for the improvement will be a training induced increase in VO2max and an increase in fractional utilisation of VO2max at threshold.

Something as simple as a power profile will go a long way to answering those questions, and more importantly, suggest what training intervention will be more suitable (when considered in context of other stuff such as training and health status, time of season, nature of event goals etc).

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlexS wrote:
trail wrote:
AlexS wrote:


Power output is the integral of all these underlying factors, so I'm not sure anything is better than the power we can already measure as it's the ultimate expression of physiological capability.


But "better" depends on what question is being asked. Power output is very, very useful because it's so closely tied to performance. But it's not great at answering the question, "Why?" E.g. if my power for an hour increases by 2% after some period of training I don't know whether it's because I'm more efficient, have higher aerobic capacity, higher anaerobic capacity, etc. Answering those questions can be useful. If I had to choose just one, I'd pick power. But I don't think it's exclusive of the other metrics. If there was some non-invasive watch that could measure my lactate, that'd be nice to add to the mix.


If your 60-min MMP improves by 2%, it won't be due to a change in anaerobic capacity. To do that you'd have to at least double your anaerobic capacity.

As for efficiency, you'll need gas exchange measurement and that's an invasive process.

The most likely culprits for the improvement will be a training induced increase in VO2max and an increase in fractional utilisation of VO2max at threshold.

Something as simple as a power profile will go a long way to answering those questions, and more importantly, suggest what training intervention will be more suitable (when considered in context of other stuff such as training and health status, time of season, nature of event goals etc).

If we are to believe Sebastian Weber's work, an increase in your anaerobic capacity without an increase in VO2max will decrease the point at which lactate is in equilibrium and accumulates. Your fractional utilization of VO2max is dependent on your anaerobic capacity. He's got quite a good coaching resume, as well as Dan Lorang who got his coaching start under Sebastian if I am remembering correctly.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bioteknik wrote:
Your fractional utilization of VO2max is dependent on your anaerobic capacity.
Can you explain "dependent" please?

Bioteknik wrote:
He's got quite a good coaching resume, as well as Dan Lorang who got his coaching start under Sebastian if I am remembering correctly.
I fail to see what a coaching resume has to do with anything discussed here.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AlexS wrote:
Bioteknik wrote:
Your fractional utilization of VO2max is dependent on your anaerobic capacity.

Can you explain "dependent" please?

Bioteknik wrote:
He's got quite a good coaching resume, as well as Dan Lorang who got his coaching start under Sebastian if I am remembering correctly.

I fail to see what a coaching resume has to do with anything discussed here.


As best I can remember, the max rate at with you can utilize your glycolytic pathway, will be major determinant of where your fractional utilization of VO2 max lies. As it goes up, the fractional utilization goes down. As it goes down, fractional utilization goes up. If your glycolytic utilization goes too low, you could probably be limiting your VO2 max since the aerobic pathway to oxidize pyruvate/lactate is faster than for fats.

Sebastian is PhD, and well published in the relationships between our aerobic energy production pathways and anaerobic energy production pathways. I brought up the coaching part as real-world results as opposed to just lab results.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bioteknik wrote:
AlexS wrote:
trail wrote:
AlexS wrote:


Power output is the integral of all these underlying factors, so I'm not sure anything is better than the power we can already measure as it's the ultimate expression of physiological capability.


But "better" depends on what question is being asked. Power output is very, very useful because it's so closely tied to performance. But it's not great at answering the question, "Why?" E.g. if my power for an hour increases by 2% after some period of training I don't know whether it's because I'm more efficient, have higher aerobic capacity, higher anaerobic capacity, etc. Answering those questions can be useful. If I had to choose just one, I'd pick power. But I don't think it's exclusive of the other metrics. If there was some non-invasive watch that could measure my lactate, that'd be nice to add to the mix.


If your 60-min MMP improves by 2%, it won't be due to a change in anaerobic capacity. To do that you'd have to at least double your anaerobic capacity.

As for efficiency, you'll need gas exchange measurement and that's an invasive process.

The most likely culprits for the improvement will be a training induced increase in VO2max and an increase in fractional utilisation of VO2max at threshold.

Something as simple as a power profile will go a long way to answering those questions, and more importantly, suggest what training intervention will be more suitable (when considered in context of other stuff such as training and health status, time of season, nature of event goals etc).


If we are to believe Sebastian Weber's work, an increase in your anaerobic capacity without an increase in VO2max will decrease the point at which lactate is in equilibrium and accumulates. Your fractional utilization of VO2max is dependent on your anaerobic capacity. He's got quite a good coaching resume, as well as Dan Lorang who got his coaching start under Sebastian if I am remembering correctly.

Yepp, measuring power is a good indicator of performance, but not on how it is created! The best measure of high performance in many sports is speed. For example in an ITT - the most direct measure is "who is the fastest". BUT: we all came to the understanding that the speed is composed by many factors, in short mostly power and drag. Therefore we look at power, but:

Power is showing you how you are training, not how to train!

This is a very important difference! Power is the outcome, the result of a certain (physiological) ability of the athlete. When you want to increase power, you NEED to understand how it is created. Just as with speed - commonly accepted that we look at drag (e.g. aerodynamics) & power as we want to ultimately understand how the speed is created in order to increase it.
It has been a similar fate with the original lactate or anaerobic threshold: invented as a marker of performance, it was getting more and more popular to use it to prescribe training instead of only monitoring it.
People are tempted to do the same with power: a great metric to monitor training and performance getting alienated as part of the search for the ability to make informed decisions on how and what one should be training.

Re anaerobic capacity: it isn't really anaerobic capacity but the ability to produce power in the glycolytic pathway. Increasing this ability will - given that no other physiological parameter change - lower performance (power if you want to take it this way) at anaerobic threshold aka max lactate steady state. I assume this is what Bioteknik was indicating
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Sebastian Weber] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sebastian Weber wrote:

Re anaerobic capacity: it isn't really anaerobic capacity but the ability to produce power in the glycolytic pathway. Increasing this ability will - given that no other physiological parameter change - lower performance (power if you want to take it this way) at anaerobic threshold aka max lactate steady state. I assume this is what Bioteknik was indicating

Yes, but is there a direct relationship between anaerobic capacity and glycolytic ability? I guess there are biomechanical and metabolic efficiencies that also determine pace/power for a given unit of energy but the amount of energy per unit of glucose is a constant. I guess I'm more of a biochem geek and not as up to speed with my physiology.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Sebastian Weber] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sebastian Weber wrote:
Yepp, measuring power is a good indicator of performance, but not on how it is created!

Keep in mind a sufficiently robust power profile (or a decent power-duration curve and robust model) will tell you much of what you need to know about how you create power, and along with power based training load measures and training composition data helps to guide what training is appropriate for ongoing development (along of course with other important contextual information).


Sebastian Weber wrote:
The best measure of high performance in many sports is speed.

The best measure is winning, or whether you are successfully attaining your goals or fulfilling your role.

Sebastian Weber wrote:
BUT: we all came to the understanding that the speed is composed by many factors, in short mostly power and drag.

I'm familiar with such things. As well as coaching riders, I've been testing cycling aerodynamics for over a decade and helped refine and promote testing methods and tech in common use today.

Sebastian Weber wrote:
Therefore we look at power, but:

Power is showing you how you are training, not how to train!

That's true, although the insight one can glean from power data can certainly aid in making decisions about the appropriate focus of one's training (along with other important contextual information).

One can be most successful with coaching and performance improvement with intelligent use of power data and without ever stepping into a lab. In his career to date Chris Froome has only had two lab tests, one early on, the second in 2015 being mostly a publicity stunt. But he collected power data from just about every pedal stroke in racing and training...

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bioteknik wrote:
Sebastian Weber wrote:


Re anaerobic capacity: it isn't really anaerobic capacity but the ability to produce power in the glycolytic pathway. Increasing this ability will - given that no other physiological parameter change - lower performance (power if you want to take it this way) at anaerobic threshold aka max lactate steady state. I assume this is what Bioteknik was indicating


Yes, but is there a direct relationship between anaerobic capacity and glycolytic ability? I guess there are biomechanical and metabolic efficiencies that also determine pace/power for a given unit of energy but the amount of energy per unit of glucose is a constant. I guess I'm more of a biochem geek and not as up to speed with my physiology.

Not sure what you mean here exactly with anaerobic capacity and especially glycolytic ability?
The amount of energy you get from a mol of lactate or creatine phosphate is as constant as the one from the mentioned glucose
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Sebastian Weber] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry, i was forgetting about the other systems which contribute towards anaerobic capacity. Vlamax and anaerobic capacity are used interchangeably in a few articles ive read, but an increase in anaerobic capacity isn't necessarily due to an increase in vlamax.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bioteknik wrote:
Sorry, i was forgetting about the other systems which contribute towards anaerobic capacity. Vlamax and anaerobic capacity are used interchangeably in a few articles ive read, but an increase in anaerobic capacity isn't necessarily due to an increase in vlamax.

Well anaerobic capacity in terms of "how much energy can be used from anaerobic energy sources" this is composed of several factors:
amount of PCr, glycolytic energy production, buffering capacity, oxygen kinetics, etc.

This said VLamax, the maximum glycolytic energy flux (power) isn't interchangeable with anaerobic energy, one is a flux rate, one is more "bucket of energy".

Coming back to the question how this effects threshold, a very simplified example why this effects your endurance capacity:
Given an athlete has a great ability to produce energy / power in his glycolytic system, so therefore the ability to produce a lot of lactate using glucose as a substrate for this. Now this athletes does an IM, Marathon, etc....this glycolytic system is not turning idle just because it is race day ;-) This means: this highly developed (trained) glycolytic system will contribute to the energy / power production - always. This comes with all its side effects: lactate production, therefore glucose (carbohydrate) combustion, lowering threshold, lowering fat combusiton rates, etc.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
You could just say you don't agree with the FTP concept because much of what you have written is not correct
Which bits were wrong?
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just stop, we all know you hate AC and WKO.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
Just stop, we all know you hate AC and WKO.
You didn't answer.

FWIW, I used WKO+ for at least 10 years.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Because you are trolling
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
Because you are trolling
On the contrary.

AGomez wrote 500 odd words outlining 10 points that I found interesting and largely/directionally true. You posted a 2 line missive saying "you're wrong".

At first I was intrigued to know what your thinking was, but now I can see from this and other posts on this forum that you like to add your voice regularly to conversations but very rarely add anything of any substance or content. I now realise it was pointless to seek more, because it is clear there isn't anything there.

Good day.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:
jaretj wrote:
Because you are trolling
On the contrary.

AGomez wrote 500 odd words outlining 10 points that I found interesting and largely/directionally true. You posted a 2 line missive saying "you're wrong".

At first I was intrigued to know what your thinking was, but now I can see from this and other posts on this forum that you like to add your voice regularly to conversations but very rarely add anything of any substance or content. I now realise it was pointless to seek more, because it is clear there isn't anything there.

Good day.

It's pretty clear that you haven't actually read many of jaretj's posts then....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.
^
Absolutely 100% true post here.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

Well to be fair, you didn't critique the original post really but just attacked the poster. I re-read the post, and there are some very valid points. I only disagree that mlss can't be defined, however the duration of mlss isn't set in stone. Using 4 mmol is a bit of an old technique to define mlss, since it's an average not necessarily exact point for each individual.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.

I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:


I write great software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches.

Mark

I added the "great" for you and emphasised the "free". I am a bit disappointed that you didn't specifically mention that I use the software though.
Cheers,
Mark
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.


I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark

You like a post that confirmed your own bias.

I wasn't aware there was a science of TrainingPeaks. Despite the claims of sciencetismist's like Nathan Townsend, there doesn't have to be. Training Peaks is a coaching tool.

Perhaps you should actually do some science, or coaching for that matter before you cast doubt over those that do!

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
liversedge wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.

I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark

Still trolling me and now AC
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Mark57] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mark57 wrote:
..........Personally I love science and research so I'm not phased by contoversy except when it gets personal, which it unfortunately usually ends up being. So far so good on this thread.

Here's a nice paper that's recent and on this topic.

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../10.14814/phy2.14098

I spoke too soon.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
TizzleDK wrote:
In layman's terms does this mean the 20 minute test isn't valid and the hour test is? Or?


I think it says 95% of a 20min test does not correlate to lactate profiles.

I think that was almost predictable.


a 20 mins test on an indoor trainer tell you how good you are at doing 20 mins test.

You could use the numbers to guestimate so training zone... but we all have different power curves.

Also, we all different lactate tolerance... why our lactate level should correlate with ftp?

That been say, could be interesting to look at power curve vs lactate curve... but that will be alot more work for a phd student than just doing 30 ftp test an publish the results.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jaretj wrote:
liversedge wrote:
Felt_Rider wrote:
jaretj wrote:
I've seen what you write here and other places. I've seen your nasty exchanges and you wonder why nobody will discuss anything with you.

All you try to do is instill mistrust. You have created your own bad reputation everywhere.

^
Absolutely 100% true post here.


I write software for cyclists using peer reviewed science and give it away for free, so anyone can use it. It's used by pro tour and national teams as well as lots of amateur athletes and their coaches. I have spent a lot of time challenging the pseudo$cience bullshit from folks like Coggan. If you think that's instilling mistrust then that says more about you than me.

In all this noise it would have been easier for jaretj to actually posted an argument related to the topic. But he instead has spent a lot of time shooting the messenger. From where I stand it looks suspiciously like he doesn't have anything worthwhile to say.

Sorry if that seems "nasty"
Mark


Still trolling me and now AC

I don't need the negativity tbh. Its clear you have nothing to say worth responding to.
When you do I'll happily engage in debate, till then I'm out.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:


I do believe the CP/W' model predicts pretty well "failure". Last Sunday 8 riders i some bike race in France did a TTT. There CP/W' depletion model was BANG on.


Do you have a link for that?? :)

And for the good of the thread... while there are a variety of pathways to generate unsustainable power for short durations, do not type 1 and type IIa fibres correspond to the first two zones we train in?

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Last edited by: MarkyV: Aug 9, 19 14:45
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [liversedge] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're still trolling? I'll stop when you stop with all your negativity.
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [AGomez] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AGomez wrote:
If I may make a few observations based on a few years reading this literature I would summarize as follows.
(disclosure: some of these are not my original observation but from a colleague who is much smarter than me regard testing and training but who does not want to be named here).

1. There is no perfect FTP test, each one has pros and cons, so there aren't really any deadly sins, just different methods which are all estimates. Without a true agreed gold standard, we don't know the true accuracy of any test, so it almost impossible to be 100% sure which tests are best for whom.

2. There is no fundamental "threshold" on the power duration curve, and definitely not one set at a specific time (eg 8mins, 20min or even 60mins) for everyone. The curve is complicated as will be known to anyone who has tried to model it mathematically across a large sample of riders

3. There is no entirely linear (aka flat) area of the power duration curve and it is probably not very useful to model it in a linear way (eg as a percentage). Indeed there is very rarely anything entirely linear in human physiology.

4. Research from various large sources shows around 90% of non-pros do *not* manage to achieve 95% of their 20minFTP test power in a 60min maximal effort. Heck 90% of non-pros don't do a 60min max effort, but lets ignore that!

5. The definition of FTP doesn't tie up with any known physiological measures in most (but not all) research studies, including this one, which is not a perfect study (is there any such thing?)

6. The entire concept of "lactate threshold" is probably incorrect or perhaps a huge oversimplification, no lactate testing protocol especially those with a fixed value (eg 4mmol/l ) has really proven that useful in itself (although they can add additional information in some circumstances)

7. The entire concept of "anaerobic threshold" is a huge oversimplification; in short energy systems overlap much more than previously realized and are hard to separate into distinct steps in reality.

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply AND those who provide or perpetuate a vague definition without seeking to improve it for the benefit of the entire community.

9. The concept of FTP is mainly flawed because a. there is no threshold in the way commonly understood b. "without fatiguing" is plain wrong in the way that fatigue is commonly understood c. there is no precise time definition in the phrase "about an hour" d. there is no robust physiological verification . However FTP seems to be a more handy phrase than .......a convenient point on the power duration curve or CPPDC :)

10. The science of cycling and the science of human physiology is never perfected and never fully known. Therefore no individual (and no group) is the font of all true facts, rather the entire field evolves, and everyone who has a constructive comment, or can conduct a study contributes to the field and should be welcomed, not criticised or flamed or shouted down.

that's all, have a good day!


Good post. Some good points made.

Some might find this study interesting.

"Appreciation of the relationship and differences between MLSS and CP has been obfuscated by the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h. This is evident in the assumption that MLSS corresponds to a so‐called ‘functional threshold’ power that can be sustained for 60 minutes (Gavin et al. 2012; Morgan et al. 2018). This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min. Indeed, maximal exercise of 60 min duration is positioned squarely within the heavy‐intensity domain (Black et al. 2017) such that the physiological responses to maximal exercise of 50–55 min or 65–70 min duration, in terms of end‐exercise values and response dynamics, would likely be very similar. A more justifiable scientific approach is to define the maximal metabolic steady state as the speed or power output which separates distinct physiological response behaviors, irrespective of the corresponding exercise duration. Such an approach, which is enshrined in the CP concept, would be expected to better predict performance capability and be of greater utility in exercise/training prescription (Jones et al. 2010; Vanhatalo et al. 2011a). "
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.14814/phy2.14098
" CP is therefore the appropriate metric when the goal is to evaluate the maximal metabolic steady state. "
"the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h."
" This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min."
Last edited by: Trev The Rev: Jan 4, 21 5:12
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Was this your study?
Last edited by: jaretj: Jan 4, 21 12:23
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Trev The Rev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trev The Rev wrote:
AGomez wrote:
If I may make a few observations based on a few years reading this literature I would summarize as follows.
(disclosure: some of these are not my original observation but from a colleague who is much smarter than me regard testing and training but who does not want to be named here).

1. There is no perfect FTP test, each one has pros and cons, so there aren't really any deadly sins, just different methods which are all estimates. Without a true agreed gold standard, we don't know the true accuracy of any test, so it almost impossible to be 100% sure which tests are best for whom.

2. There is no fundamental "threshold" on the power duration curve, and definitely not one set at a specific time (eg 8mins, 20min or even 60mins) for everyone. The curve is complicated as will be known to anyone who has tried to model it mathematically across a large sample of riders

3. There is no entirely linear (aka flat) area of the power duration curve and it is probably not very useful to model it in a linear way (eg as a percentage). Indeed there is very rarely anything entirely linear in human physiology.

4. Research from various large sources shows around 90% of non-pros do *not* manage to achieve 95% of their 20minFTP test power in a 60min maximal effort. Heck 90% of non-pros don't do a 60min max effort, but lets ignore that!

5. The definition of FTP doesn't tie up with any known physiological measures in most (but not all) research studies, including this one, which is not a perfect study (is there any such thing?)

6. The entire concept of "lactate threshold" is probably incorrect or perhaps a huge oversimplification, no lactate testing protocol especially those with a fixed value (eg 4mmol/l ) has really proven that useful in itself (although they can add additional information in some circumstances)

7. The entire concept of "anaerobic threshold" is a huge oversimplification; in short energy systems overlap much more than previously realized and are hard to separate into distinct steps in reality.

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply AND those who provide or perpetuate a vague definition without seeking to improve it for the benefit of the entire community.

9. The concept of FTP is mainly flawed because a. there is no threshold in the way commonly understood b. "without fatiguing" is plain wrong in the way that fatigue is commonly understood c. there is no precise time definition in the phrase "about an hour" d. there is no robust physiological verification . However FTP seems to be a more handy phrase than .......a convenient point on the power duration curve or CPPDC :)

10. The science of cycling and the science of human physiology is never perfected and never fully known. Therefore no individual (and no group) is the font of all true facts, rather the entire field evolves, and everyone who has a constructive comment, or can conduct a study contributes to the field and should be welcomed, not criticised or flamed or shouted down.

that's all, have a good day!


Good post. Some good points made.

Some might find this study interesting.

"Appreciation of the relationship and differences between MLSS and CP has been obfuscated by the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h. This is evident in the assumption that MLSS corresponds to a so‐called ‘functional threshold’ power that can be sustained for 60 minutes (Gavin et al. 2012; Morgan et al. 2018). This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min. Indeed, maximal exercise of 60 min duration is positioned squarely within the heavy‐intensity domain (Black et al. 2017) such that the physiological responses to maximal exercise of 50–55 min or 65–70 min duration, in terms of end‐exercise values and response dynamics, would likely be very similar. A more justifiable scientific approach is to define the maximal metabolic steady state as the speed or power output which separates distinct physiological response behaviors, irrespective of the corresponding exercise duration. Such an approach, which is enshrined in the CP concept, would be expected to better predict performance capability and be of greater utility in exercise/training prescription (Jones et al. 2010; Vanhatalo et al. 2011a). "
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.14814/phy2.14098
" CP is therefore the appropriate metric when the goal is to evaluate the maximal metabolic steady state. "
"the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h."
" This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min."




I agree that 95% of 20 minute power is not a good estimate of FTP, although the big issue there isn't FTP. It's that everyone does the test wrong. The book Training and Racing with a Power Meter has the test in there and it's very clear that you're supposed to do a 5 minute all out effort first. Yet all these online training platforms cut that out and then have everyone do 20 minutes all out and multiply that by .95 and tell people that's their FTP. People need to read the book.

I've done the test correctly and it will over-estimate my FTP by a bit (I've compared it to an hour all out), but only by about 5 watts so it's close. I think they should have just defined FTP as your 60 minute power, told people to test it with an hour all out, and not claimed it estimates MLSS. Maybe there wouldn't be so much arguing about FTP then.

Personally, I don't understand the constant attempts by people to discredit FTP. Is it because of Coggan? I understand that it's probably not grounding in physiology, but it has proven to be an effective way to train. I like to follow the science and read studies, but it's hard to translate that to training when no one can even agree on a set of terminology to use (MLSS, OBLA, VT2, CP, etc.). FTP comes with a book that gives you a way to test it in the real world and build a training plan around it. Sure it has limitations - like you should probably plan your VO2 Max efforts off a percent of your 5' power rather than a percent of FTP - but we don't need to scrap the entire concept of FTP to evolve and change the way we set up workouts as we learn more.

I guess my big issue with the attempts to discredit FTP is this....if I stop using FTP for training, what should I use? I can test my FTP and use that to measure progress, determine my zones, build workouts, etc. I've done some coaching and my athletes all saw progress over prior seasons using those methods, and it gives coaches and athletes a set of terminology to use. And in the end, I don't even care that much if it's grounded in physiology because all I really need is an effective way to train. So if FTP has so many problems, what replaces it?
Quote Reply
Re: FTP Research [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supersquid wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
AGomez wrote:
If I may make a few observations based on a few years reading this literature I would summarize as follows.
(disclosure: some of these are not my original observation but from a colleague who is much smarter than me regard testing and training but who does not want to be named here).

1. There is no perfect FTP test, each one has pros and cons, so there aren't really any deadly sins, just different methods which are all estimates. Without a true agreed gold standard, we don't know the true accuracy of any test, so it almost impossible to be 100% sure which tests are best for whom.

2. There is no fundamental "threshold" on the power duration curve, and definitely not one set at a specific time (eg 8mins, 20min or even 60mins) for everyone. The curve is complicated as will be known to anyone who has tried to model it mathematically across a large sample of riders

3. There is no entirely linear (aka flat) area of the power duration curve and it is probably not very useful to model it in a linear way (eg as a percentage). Indeed there is very rarely anything entirely linear in human physiology.

4. Research from various large sources shows around 90% of non-pros do *not* manage to achieve 95% of their 20minFTP test power in a 60min maximal effort. Heck 90% of non-pros don't do a 60min max effort, but lets ignore that!

5. The definition of FTP doesn't tie up with any known physiological measures in most (but not all) research studies, including this one, which is not a perfect study (is there any such thing?)

6. The entire concept of "lactate threshold" is probably incorrect or perhaps a huge oversimplification, no lactate testing protocol especially those with a fixed value (eg 4mmol/l ) has really proven that useful in itself (although they can add additional information in some circumstances)

7. The entire concept of "anaerobic threshold" is a huge oversimplification; in short energy systems overlap much more than previously realized and are hard to separate into distinct steps in reality.

8. The concept of FTP was once useful when the field was young but as with many early concepts but now, not so much. Further it is often misquoted which is a fault of those who both those who misuqote/misunderstand/misapply AND those who provide or perpetuate a vague definition without seeking to improve it for the benefit of the entire community.

9. The concept of FTP is mainly flawed because a. there is no threshold in the way commonly understood b. "without fatiguing" is plain wrong in the way that fatigue is commonly understood c. there is no precise time definition in the phrase "about an hour" d. there is no robust physiological verification . However FTP seems to be a more handy phrase than .......a convenient point on the power duration curve or CPPDC :)

10. The science of cycling and the science of human physiology is never perfected and never fully known. Therefore no individual (and no group) is the font of all true facts, rather the entire field evolves, and everyone who has a constructive comment, or can conduct a study contributes to the field and should be welcomed, not criticised or flamed or shouted down.

that's all, have a good day!


Good post. Some good points made.

Some might find this study interesting.

"Appreciation of the relationship and differences between MLSS and CP has been obfuscated by the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h. This is evident in the assumption that MLSS corresponds to a so‐called ‘functional threshold’ power that can be sustained for 60 minutes (Gavin et al. 2012; Morgan et al. 2018). This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min. Indeed, maximal exercise of 60 min duration is positioned squarely within the heavy‐intensity domain (Black et al. 2017) such that the physiological responses to maximal exercise of 50–55 min or 65–70 min duration, in terms of end‐exercise values and response dynamics, would likely be very similar. A more justifiable scientific approach is to define the maximal metabolic steady state as the speed or power output which separates distinct physiological response behaviors, irrespective of the corresponding exercise duration. Such an approach, which is enshrined in the CP concept, would be expected to better predict performance capability and be of greater utility in exercise/training prescription (Jones et al. 2010; Vanhatalo et al. 2011a). "
https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.14814/phy2.14098
" CP is therefore the appropriate metric when the goal is to evaluate the maximal metabolic steady state. "
"the persistent but perplexing notion that the maximal metabolic steady state should correspond to an exercise duration of approximately 1 h."
" This is a convenient but entirely arbitrary definition that is devoid of physiological meaning. There is nothing any more ‘special’ about 60 min of exercise compared to, for example, 65 min, 44 min, or 23 min."





I agree that 95% of 20 minute power is not a good estimate of FTP, although the big issue there isn't FTP. It's that everyone does the test wrong. The book Training and Racing with a Power Meter has the test in there and it's very clear that you're supposed to do a 5 minute all out effort first. Yet all these online training platforms cut that out and then have everyone do 20 minutes all out and multiply that by .95 and tell people that's their FTP. People need to read the book.

I've done the test correctly and it will over-estimate my FTP by a bit (I've compared it to an hour all out), but only by about 5 watts so it's close. I think they should have just defined FTP as your 60 minute power, told people to test it with an hour all out, and not claimed it estimates MLSS. Maybe there wouldn't be so much arguing about FTP then.

Personally, I don't understand the constant attempts by people to discredit FTP. Is it because of Coggan? I understand that it's probably not grounding in physiology, but it has proven to be an effective way to train. I like to follow the science and read studies, but it's hard to translate that to training when no one can even agree on a set of terminology to use (MLSS, OBLA, VT2, CP, etc.). FTP comes with a book that gives you a way to test it in the real world and build a training plan around it. Sure it has limitations - like you should probably plan your VO2 Max efforts off a percent of your 5' power rather than a percent of FTP - but we don't need to scrap the entire concept of FTP to evolve and change the way we set up workouts as we learn more.

I guess my big issue with the attempts to discredit FTP is this....if I stop using FTP for training, what should I use? I can test my FTP and use that to measure progress, determine my zones, build workouts, etc. I've done some coaching and my athletes all saw progress over prior seasons using those methods, and it gives coaches and athletes a set of terminology to use. And in the end, I don't even care that much if it's grounded in physiology because all I really need is an effective way to train. So if FTP has so many problems, what replaces it?

The Critical Power model predates FTP by nearly 50 years.
Quote Reply