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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [lonestar] [ In reply to ]
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First let me say that I have the utmost respect for Gordo and Scott Molina - I think the concept is great and clearly it was a successful strategy for Scott and is for Gordo. Who's going to argue with a sub 8:30 IM guy!

However, some comments:

1. The concept is a great one - get right minded people together for a big period of training. This is an old strategy, but highly effective. More athletes should do this. We used to do it years ago.

2. That being said, the distances that are being covered are HUGE. I wonder if you reach a point of diminishing or no returns. The physiological research hints at the fact that after a certain point there are no tangiable returns and that you have to have a closer look at intensity if you want to get results. Many top ednurance athletes will drop their yearly volumes substantially as they get older, but their performance remains the same or improves.

3. You don't have to train that much to go sub 10 - Myself and many others who have gone sub 10, have not trained anywhere near that level of volume.

4. When I first did an IM back in the 80's( IMH) they sent you a booklet with your acceptence note with some reccomended training volumes. I can't recall for sure but they seemed crazy to me at the time - somthing like 30,000 yards of swimming/300 miles cycling/50 miles of running each week. I was doing about 1/2 of those totals on average, with some bigger weeks and went 9:40 at IMH that first time out.

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I agree.

I too have alot of respect for the guys who put on this camp but the mileages they put in are far beyond what is needed for stellar performance. In fact, training at those volumes not only lay into diminishing returns but clearly put one at risk of injury and burnout. Clearly training this much is not healthy.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [audentia] [ In reply to ]
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well, with Olaf and Sergio, people in 8h30' IM shape :-)

just teasing...people should be comfortable doing 18mph for long rides. When we do IM pace we can go ahead and regroup later, and runs, there can be several groups. no big deal.

We could be very accomodating and smartasscoach can lead the slower group.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [audentia] [ In reply to ]
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Hey audentia,



Like Francois said, we're still working out the details.

But the main purpose is to have a fine-tuning camp before IMAZ. That's the kind of work Francois, Sergio and Olaf will be doing.

As for other people present there, it can depend on their own objectives. Are you doing IMAZ as well? I guess the requirements would be to be able to hang with those 3 guys ;-) However, with me being there, I think we can accomodate for different levels of athletic ability. Also for the people not doing IMAZ, having me on the deck of the pool would mean having a good opportunity to work on their swimming and I hear, also a great tan :-)

The objective is to get together a group of hopefully like-minded hard-working athletes, and do some purposeful training in a relaxed athmosphere. This is not a camp where either me or the guys are there to hold people's hands, but rather to learn from each other and have fun.



So after missing you here in Portugal, will we get to meet in AZ? I hope so! :-)



Paulo

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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one guy was putting in 10.5 hour training days on average!!! fucking nuts. psychologically it would make you tough...physiologically im not so sure...

i also heard one of the elites there is needing surgery...
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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"i also heard one of the elites there is needing surgery"

let me guess...brain transplant?? because that's how I felt last year at the end of mine...
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! Sounds good... I'm not doing AZ, but am planning on good miles for Brazil in late May... A friend and I were planning on heading down in March anyway, but to hang around you guys would be great! Not looking for 'holding hands' type of support, just plain JFT and good info and tips from guys like you 4... Whenever you have more details let me know...





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“You can't coach desire.” --Dathan Ritzenhein
http://xtreme4.com/ -- an extreme ride for extreme change: go green
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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The injury was due to a bike crash, apparently he'd have been dead without his helmet. They were cycling to a swim with wetsuits draped over their bikes. His got caught in the spokes at around 30mph.

There's always a lot of naysaying about big volume training. Some of the people doing it (Gordo, Molina) are pretty sure it works for them. The others hope it works. That's the difference between them and the rest of us. They'll try and they'll find out.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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>>i also heard one of the elites there is needing surgery...<<

And where did you hear that? If you are talking about the guy who crashed, that doesn't seem to be the case.

From gordo's report:

One bit of bad luck. On race morning Fritz had a solo crash when his wetsuit sleeve was blown into his front wheel. Unfortunately, it happened on the fastest part of the descent to the lake. His helmet saved his life (for sure - there are deep grooves along the brim - wear your lid!). Peter and Mark took him to Cooma to get stitched up and checked out (he's OK, just soft tissue injury). So always bag your wetsuit (or, my choice, put it on pre-ride) when you are riding to a race start. Apparently, this is a common accident at races where people camp and ride to the start (like Wildflower). So spread-the-word, I'd never even thought about that type of accident and have probably ridden with my suit on my bars several times.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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surgery from injuries sustained from pushing too big a gear ;)
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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you can't push too big! ;-)
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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While I know Gordo and have seen his progression since his early days of tri, I haven't read his reports lately. However, I know Wy (one of his major support crew) very well, and it seems these guys do quite a bit of work at low intensity levels. This coincides with some physiology bits I learned from a top notched physiologist who studied under Dr. Vigil. He mentioned that for people who train strictly aerobically, it would take over 20 years to peak their aerobic efficiency, and this is why we most people won't ever get into "training to diminishing returns" while doing it aerobically. They are consistently building base.

With that said, I know they have the capability to go out and shell each other as well (Gordo's apparent satisfaction in riding with the roadies and throwing down a bit on the climbs? ;-), so as long as they continue to monitor themselves and their intensity, I'm not sure how much damage they are actually doing. They tricky part is where the higher intensity work now needs to be applied to get Gordo up to the "winning an IM" level (which I believe he is got to last year with his fitness level), and when he cuts back on the mega stuff. So far over the past couple of years, he's done quite well...so only time will tell as he continues (now in his mid 30's) over the next couple of years...

oh yeah...and that skid guy ain't so bad either ;-)

Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Craigster] [ In reply to ]
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Gordo has been at a level to win an IM for the last 2 years or so...
it just depends where...
he races where the field is strong, but he could have won in Korea or Japan for instance.

this is true obviously for other even more talented athletes, like Faris Al Sultan...who may win his first IM in AZ ;-)
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I attended two insanely intense wrestling camps in high school put on my the head coach of the University of Minnesota. The camp was extremely difficult.

No need to break out the measuring tape. I'll just say that training like that would completely burn me out. Just like it did at those camps.

Hinton
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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With all due repsect to Gordo et all, he had a revealing quote in his day ten report:

"Me? I was sleeping through much of this. I was tired and five days of near pointless training had worn me out a bit mentally and physically."

Joel

>>>>
JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [czone] [ In reply to ]
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"Me? I was sleeping through much of this. I was tired and five days of near pointless training had worn me out a bit mentally and physically."

Joel[/reply]

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that. My mammalian physiology prof used to call it 'testosterone toxicity'.


Josef
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [czone] [ In reply to ]
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I read that to. Interesting!

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [czone] [ In reply to ]
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last year, I packed 56hrs in 8 days during my sorry ass camp in march...

the result was amazing...I was tired, I didn't want to train anymore and I got sick and injured again soon after...

of course, maybe they are going really easy on most sessions which is not something I did (for the first 4 days or so...after I was just training to train)...

but I didn't see the value of doing this at all.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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well no wonder you got injured - that's only 7 hours of training a day!

Nancyboy.

Your planned AZ camp sounds like fun, btw.


Josef
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [JoB] [ In reply to ]
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yeah...I should have done more...why didn't I think of this before! ;-)

we'll have an official announcement soon...the technical details are fixed.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Caught it too. My first thought was what the campers that paid big cash and crushed themselves to train like this will think when they read that comment . . . or what people thinking of signing up would think. My guess is that Gordo will put that into better context. He seems like a person who thinks through most thoughts, and perhaps this was just a comment made while "shelled," as he likes to say. Interesting though.
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [RA] [ In reply to ]
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I believe Gordo was referring to himself in regards to his comment, "pointless training". Gordo is extremely Passionate about this sport and I don't think he puts on Epic Camps for pointless training, atleast not for the campers! :-D
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Kestrelkerri] [ In reply to ]
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Thats nothing!

At my last running club camp in Lake Tahoe, we put in 20 miles a day on the trails, 4 hours on the beach drinking beer, and half a bottle of tequila per man in the evening doing shots.

4 days straight.

Thats a training camp!



(I'd love to see the food bill at the end of Molina's camp...thats a lot of calories those guys are burning)

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill
Last edited by: MattinSF: Jan 19, 05 16:02
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
it makes my Do It Yourself Epic Camp of last march look week...
although I was on my own AND cost was $0 ;-)

$3000 not high?? for the same price, I can put the same thing with the flight included...

with smartasscoach we are looking at doing a smartasscamp in AZ...cost would be around $700 for 8 days...how do you get to $3000 without the flight?


With all due respect there's no way you could put on the same thing with flight included for a 12 days point to point camp in Australia with everything included for $2500. Food, acccomodation, support vans, crew, bike mec etc; you do the math..

$0 for do it yourself camp?? You didn't eat?

Regarding some of the the other peoples comments about the training. This might not be the best thing from a strict physiological viewpoint but it's all about challenging yourself and for athletes with regular jobs this is often a once in a life time oppurtunity to train like this. Most people come out a lot stronger after the camp.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: Epic Camp... Are you kidding?! [czone] [ In reply to ]
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The "pointless" comment may relate to not earning points in the point compitition and not be a waste of time training comment.

All things are relative and what's epic for some is routine for others. For me riding 500km a week is epic. To pros that's a recovery week.

IMO the real epic stuff is done in adventure racing. Eco challenge is a 6 to 12 day event. The winners may only sleep or rest for an average of 2hrs a day. They are racing (relative term) for 22hrs a day. That's epic.
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