You'll still find that pushing to 95-100% FTP puts far more strain on the system. And pedaling at 70-75% FTP on the downhills is a long way from coasting. Also, if you assume a moderately hilly IM course with that kind of breakdown 95/70/58, you'll find yourself blown up on the run pretty quickly, unless your adaptation to running off the bike is unbelievable.

That'd work out to a fairly high VI, an intensity factor around .85, and assuming you're not a FOP racer on a hilly course, if you were racing the bike to a 5hr split, that'd put you comfortably over 400 TSS. That's a staggering load.

If you rode the entire course steady (assuming a bit of extra needed on hills) with 80-85% / 75 / 80, you'd see far better times, with far low impact on the system.

I'm not saying that TSS is the be all and end all of predicting run fitness, speed on the bike, or how your race will go, but its pretty often correct for the average athlete.

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Proud member of the GUCrew
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What trimick said. The metabolic cost of that might be higher but not enough that a reasonably well trained athlete couldn't handle it. Of course the duration of the climbing matters a lot too.

And I absolutely would love to see the many cases where it's faster to ride with equal power up and down a hill vs higher power uphill. Almost never would be my guess...

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

probably exactly never.... science. This can easily be calculated on Analytic Cycling.

EN has good advice sometimes, but they always construct a lame strawman to get their point across or have a foil to play against.

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If you're doing out and backs on the same hill, you're absolutely right you'd just about never see it. Often because the speed of the descent would be limited by factors other than power output for many athletes (I spin out a 52-11t at around 45mph on a long descent, it'd be impossible to put out 75% FTP at that point). If you've got a long loop course with climbs that are sharper than longer descents, I suspect you'd find it quite often.

What Trimick said is, again, not indicative of attacking the hill and coasting the descent, 70-75%FTP output is not coasting by any means.

And if the logic holds that "a reasonably well trained athlete [could] handle it", then why do we see power meter numbers from people like PJ where low VI is their goal on long-course?

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I guess simple physics is not always that simple... (;

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Arguing exact numbers in this context is just semantics imo. That all depends on exactly how the course is layed out. The fact is still that it's very hard to get away from the fact that a variable pacing strategy on almost all hilly courses will be faster. I'm not saying you should have a sky high VI but within reason it's doable.

Same with the example of power files of the pros as I doubt very much the best pros ride as described by EN on hilly courses. Not the smart ones anyway...

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

We can happily agree to disagree, and I do concur that without lots of power data at this point, it is a semantic argument.

I'm not taking a side with EN or against EN at all, just to be clear on that as well.

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This is actually closer to what the EN guidance is, or at least used to be although it may have been revised more recently. I think it is understood that it won't always be possible to ride a hill at your goal IF, especially for an Ironman we know that there are a lot of climbs that you simply can't get up at say 0.74 IF at any remotely reasonable cadence unless you have have just a ton of gearing, or unless you are a tiny / high W/KG guy.

For these climbs, I think it's understood that you're going to exceed your target IF, but that doesn't mean you have license to crush it at 120% FTP. Instead, you push the watts slightly with some common sense. I.e. if it's a shorter climb I can certainly apply more power (within reason) but if I know I'm entering into a long steady climb I certainly need to keep my climbing IF closer to my overall target IF.

It's also certainly understood that you can't maintain your target IF on every downhill, but frankly let's remember that not every climb ends in a downhill, or if it does, it certainly doesn't right away. The point is you moderate your effort on the climb so that you can carry your power through the crest and the beginning of the descent at least, or if the climb ends on a flat you then can proceed on at goal IF instead of floundering because you burnt a match on the ascent.

As I recall, Patrick went to Harvard so it's not like we're dealing with someone incapable of understanding nuance. You just have to remember that he is also a business owner and if he gave away 100% of what he had to offer it would be fantastic for us but probably not so great for his family. These blog posts garner attention, apparently quite successfully in this case, not represent the end-all, be-all of EN's guidance on the topic.

Full disclaimer of course, it's not like you have to pay for this knowledge or that there are any great life-changing secrets that you only get access to inside of EN, it's certainly out there for free or for a modest fee of picking up a few books if you know where to look. But that's not for everyone, and if you'd like to pay for someone to offer you the consolidated guidance and experience of some guys who have been around the block a few times, well then they offer that service, as do others if you prefer something different.

edit: grammar.

I don't have a horse in this race, but if we're following logic here, I'm not quite sure why you'd argue with someone who won Wildflower about the correct way to ride hills...

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tweets.

Outliers exist, and I'm happy to credit Bjorn both with the win and with his ability to be an outlier (Let's face it, being a Cycling National Time Trial Champ doesn't tend to represent 'normal' even at the pro level). That doesn't mean that his way of riding hills is optimal for many athletes (it doesn't mean it isn't either) and there is certainly quantifiable data to show that there are many pro athletes pursuing an essentially "steady" power profile.

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Glad you jumped in there. For what it's worth, you are 100% correct. I'll go further to say that not only is such a variable style of riding almost always faster, it is also something within grasp of any sufficiently trained age grouper. It's not superhuman abilities we are talking about here. It's just proper pacing.

Guess we all know why you're a former pro now.

I am a "stupid" and "lazy" triathlete who has given his money to EN for 3 years!

To those interested in EN you will find good advice in a helpful civil manor practiced by all team members and coaches who are not afraid to use there real names.

Tim Cronk

I'm glad to see you chiming in, Dave. I read a blog by you a while back about this topic that I thought summed it up well. I think you described it as riding hardest when going the slowest? I felt it was a good explanation of bike pacing strategy, so I saved it, and occasionally share it with beginners doing their first HIM when we discuss how they should ride on race day.

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Don Larkin
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USAT Lvl1 Coach, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, BS Exercise Science

I work at a LBS and one of our customers drinks the EN kool aid. He told me the other day that he was told that

"you dont need to do any swim training really for an IM. "

my response was somewhere along the lines of
"da fuq???"

He then totally clarified by saying
"His EN "coach" said that the actual time you waste getting in your car and going to a pool, getting ready, waiting for a lane, doing your swim workout, then getting ready to go home, being stuck in traffic, and getting home. You've wasted 2.5 hours to swim for less than an hour. That time is better spent just running or biking"

He made it clear that he was advocated to not swim at all. I guess they are right in line with WTC and the whole new coddle the not so good swimmers approach

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

I am a EN member. I have been with them for 3 years. I have never been told that "you don't need to do any swim training for an IM." My plan does call for swimming 3 days a week broken down into intervals, race prep sets, ect. I have a 20 week plan that I am currently doing which creates a good balance for my life style. This saturday I will be completing week 11 of the 20 week plan which has me swimming for 1 hour, biking for 4 hours, then running for 1 hour. Yesterday I did interval sets at 95-100% FTP and today I will be running 90 minutes. Tell me again how easy EN is? I guess I am also one of those lazy triathletes, right?

Ken Smith

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This is totally out of context. EN recommends not swimming during their outseason and spending that time getting faster on the bike and run. During the 20 week in season plan, there is plenty of swimming. I enjoyed 3 years with EN made a lot of friends, and think they have a sound plan. I left to try another online training group that purported a more holistic approach to training. I'm not going to out them here, you have probably received their emails and such. I found this group to be a bunch of hokum and snake oil. Sounds like a great plan and approach, but in practice, it didn't work for me. Lots of ego and no real help with planning when I asked for it. EN was much better.
Here is the opening line in their web site:
Has anyone else tried these guys?

Our triathlon training is unlike anything else out there. How? We start with�THE STORY OF YOU.

I also have to say I don't understand the intent and purpose of the OP's start of this thread. OP, what are you hoping to gain from this?

This is the Bash EN Bike Thread, The EN Swim Bash is another thread. :)

x2

I'm a few weeks further along in my EN plan, but the layout is similar. I find that, after the long Saturday sets, the Sunday extended tempo ride can be brutal. But, when you get through that, you feel like you really put in some good training. I guess I am one of those lazy triathletes too...

-Tropic

Than

Thanks for your business and perspective on our plans. Let me know if you ever have any questions or if there's anything else I can do to help.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Thanks for your perspective and congrats on June Lake! I'll see you in Lake Tahoe in September :-)

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Hey Rick!

Great to see you again, hope you're doing well.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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boy...you didn't out them at all. I mean...a simple copy and paste of your quote into "The google" didn't come up with an immediate hit or anything /end-pink

Hey Tim,

Thanks! Congrats on your performance at IMTX, looking forward to seeing you crush Kona!

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Thanks and you're welcome to come back anytime!

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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