Jan 1- 6.54 mi run (65 min), 2.6 mi walk
Jan 2- 3000 yd free and 1000+ kick/goof off

30 x 50 on 55
50 kick
6 x 100 on 140
50 kick
6 x 50 on 50
50 kick
6 x 100 on 140
Kick and play

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I have a general question directed to the readers of this.

First of all I am older - swimming since the days before googles, and now assist coaching a masters swim club.

I really enjoy reading the posts here and they often give me ideas for the workouts that I write. What I would really like to understand better is the reasoning behind the swim sets. While I personally like longer swims, my observation is that shorter swims with adequate rest seem to produce better results. IE - swimming fairly fast with the best form possible.

I do understand that what is long and what is fast varies widely between swimmers, but it seems to me that the metabolic adaptations we are looking for should be similar.

I would appreciate any and all thoughts.

Steve

Main set today, first masters practice of 2024....

20 x 25 kick down, swim back, IM order
24 x 50 (1-6 = 50IM, 7-12 = free, 13-18 = no free, 19-24 = free)

my workouts right now are entirely - and I mean entirely - about refining technique to swim pain free. I have a nerve palsy in my R shoulder that has resulted in the complete loss of my supraspinatus muscle on the R and a good deal of the infraspinatus. I'm having surgery on 1/19 to release the nerve. I may or may not get any of that muscle back (MD thinks unlikely on the supra. I pray to prove him wrong). So, don't read "fitness goals" into anything I post right now.

here are some examples of sets I use for a HIM swim. If you want stuff for other distances LMK and I'll try to respond when I have time. I'm a miler by trade; if I could tell you how to swim a fast AF 500 yd in the pool I would have typed that out, but at one point in college I was going 5:57 for the five and 19:47 for the mile soooooo

HIM swim or pool mile
20 x 100 on an interval with :05-:10 rest (threshold stimulus)

4 x 500 or 5 x 400 with :30 ish rest with a narrow range descend. I think this is threshold-ish

8 x (300 fast, recovery can be a 50-100 super super super easy and usually I'll do breaststroke kick for a 50 here). The 300 should be a vo2 max effort. If you can swim a 300 in 4 min or so, pick a distance that puts you close to all out aerobic capacity for 4 ish minutes. The effort here is gut wrenching

3 x 100-200 fast with a 50 kick rest. I use these because in an OW race I want to be able to get out fast and not get stuck in the pack. The pack is annoying.

I'm a decent swimmer in tri, nothing special in the pool compared to really good pool swimmers, and those are my go-tos. I love the 300s. I wish I could swim that set right now but my shoulder won't take it. I love that gut wrenching feeling.

the final thing I'll say is I like to do something like 6 x 100 with a 50 kick recovery just to play games and see how fast I can swim a 100, without actually training for sprint free. My distance pace is my sprint pace but if I do a meet I want to have some idea of what an all out 100 should look like, and I can really only get there if I do a couple fast ones and descend them. My fourth repeat on this set will typically be pretty good, the 5th will suffer, I might get a faster 6th one.

the next time I get in the pool I might do some 25s because I think I can maybe do them without breathing and breathing is part of what seems to cause shoulder pain - hence the shorter repeats here.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Dr. Tigerchik,

Thanks for the extensive reply.

I certainly hope your surgery goes well. That must make your swimming very difficult.

Everyone has different goals when they go to the pool. It sounds like you would advocate repeats with short intervals for building endurance. Several of the swimmers in the masters group I work with are committed open water swimmers and triathletes. They are probably swimming 4ish hours a week in three swims. Although that varies with the time of the year.

I'm thinking endurance work (repeats on short intervals) one day a week is one goal WO. A second WO goal might have a good diet of 50's/75's/100's with a little longer RI to help with speed / turnover. And because they are masters swimmers the third might have more of an IM focus.

Thoughts?

Steve

Great thread title.

Great questions/discussion.

Of course I'm just going to be a stubborn old bastard and keep doing my WU + x + CD sessions, where x = a single "effort" of anything from the 15m Challenge (which is A Thing!) to the 5000m. Because....I love it. 😂

Check out how I distribute 10 "options" per week:

A.M./P.M.

M-x/15m
T-50m/200m
W-800m/3000m
T-x/x
F-25m/100m
S-400m/1500m
S-5000m/x

I'm generally content with 5 sessions, and thrilled with 6-7.

I enjoyed a 50m this morning (hi36sec) and I hope to do 200m at 5:30pm ish.

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I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

I can understand being a stubborn old bastard. Some of my friends might say that of me.

What I do and what might actually be good for me and help me improve can be two different things. I think I'm just trying to come to a clear understanding of the best (most efficient, most effective) ways of swim training not only for me but for the swimmers I try to help. And I do understand that blanket generalities are at best, just that.

Steve

:D

thank you

I'm hoping I can come up with cool stuff for other months. Fishtember, for instance, is on the list

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

masters swimmers as a group I think can be hard to coach because you're literally trying to hit everything from people who are IM (the kona version) focused and need to do a fast OW 4k, to people who want a fast 50 fly. I can talk semi-intelligently about distance free and that's about it.

for MWF ish swimmers I'd go
M - fast 200s or 300s with lots of rest
W - endurance work (threshold set, the 20 x 100 or 400s and 500s set I posted)
F - 50s/75s/100s with longer rest

those are basically the things I've done that made me get reasonably fast.

I know two people who are good stroke and IM swimmers. One is a pure sprinter and one is actually an incredible all around guy who can swim everything from a fast 50 fly to a fast mile. The stroke work they do is a lot of 12.5 fast, 25s, 50s. I rarely see them do more than a 50 fly all at once because fly is really hard on the body and shoulders. They also don't seem to do a lot of, like, repeat 200 IMs. They do short stuff that works on being fast, having good technique, and they do things that let them practice turns (like 50s IM in various IM order things, like 50 as fly back, 50 as back breast, etc). I make those observations from occasional glances at some other lane while I don't have my nose pointed at a black line, which isn't a lot of the time. But what they're NOT doing is, like, repeat 100s of fly.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

the hands-down most efficient way of swim training is to fix technique

all the magic sets in the world won't help if the technique is poor. You want to fix things like kicking from one's knee, lack of body roll, turning head too much or lifting it up to breathe, etc etc

the things I think about in the pool right now, as I'm trying to build my own stroke anew, are
head DOWN
hips up
body roll
STRONG KICK squeeze glutes

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

First swimming workout in two weeks bit and was a bit painful:

3 x (9 x 100 LCM in ~1:30, out in 1:40, 2 x 50 m easy ) First two rounds felt "Easy" but last one was hurting.

Good luck with surgery!

I really like your observations. FWIW I did some of my best distance swimming when I was doing a mix of stroke work in the pool. Whenever I focused almost exclusively on distance free my times tailed off. I was also swimming 12 to 15k per week with almost nothing longer than 200 yds.

the hands-down most efficient way of swim training is to fix technique

all the magic sets in the world won't help if the technique is poor. You want to fix things like kicking from one's knee, lack of body roll, turning head too much or lifting it up to breathe, etc etc

the things I think about in the pool right now, as I'm trying to build my own stroke anew, are
head DOWN
hips up
body roll
STRONG KICK squeeze glutes

I would add that fitness plays a role. It's difficult for swimmers to learn good technique without good swim fitness.

Steve

I disagree with some of the very basic technique stuff. You don't need fitness to not kick from one's knees. You don't need fitness to exhale when one's face is in the water (a key mistake adult onset swimmers make is turning head to breathe, exhale, inhale, stick head back in and hold breath until their mouth is out of the water again). Avoiding "crossing over" w arms doesn't take fitness.

Things like body rotation, fitness helps because you have to be able to swim okayish to work on that. But if you're thinking about body roll you're probably past the "kicks with knees" stage of freestyle.

I may be thinking the group you're working with is far less advanced than they actually are... but most triathletes I see at the pool have fairly terrible technique. It's not their fault; swimming is very hard to pick up as an adult.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I LOVE THIS THREAD TITLE.. mad me laugh.

(somehow I just deleted my entire post)

So i wont go through it all again
Day 1. 3200 easy mix

It felt so amazing to be back in the water!!!

daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

you know what they say, sex is nice, but have you tried swimming well

I had said we were going to have Fishtember but I've changed it and we will have Swimtember and Fishtober

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

That’s so true.

My Strava post said that there were tears … and there were. My ankle still isn’t healed. But the scab seemed solid enough.

I will go again Thursday and then Friday I hope too.

Daved

Ps if you’re ever around Boston and want to swim hit me up.

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

re: Boston area
thanks - I'll do that! May be there Feb 9/10 to see OK state track, and I'm coming Apr 14 to do the marathon expo, staying overnight so can be Wellesley girl. (I have a wellesley sweatshirt I bought to be a W girl for halloween... it is vastly underappreciated costume)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

This morning was 800m o'clock:

WU: 8x100m on 3min, starting at 1:56 and ending at 1:41.

800m in 13:23. (400m 6:44/6:39. 200m 3:22/3:22/3:21/3:18.)

CD: 400m in 7:19.

The 800m felt rather pleasant to 600m, then it was a bit of a slog - but never "very hard".

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I only swim.
I used to run. (31:09 10k)
I never did Triathlon.
Sue me.

Daved - good to see you back at it.

Re the rationale for sets and training to the person who posted above, distance and sprint are completely (almost fundamentally ) different.

Proper sprint training is about power and strength and attention to detail. Need to get stronger out of the pool and in it.

Proper distance training is just lots of aerobic training and lots of threshold training - in the pool. Aerobic swimming in the pool is still kind of fast. Think your IM pace and better. If your shoulders and arms aren’t hurting it’s too slow.

Building the stroke efficiency as you go. You can’t just drill. Relationship with the water is complex. Needs time spent doing it. But technique is very very important. How to get good technique? Swim consciousness

For the person who posted above, hard distance kills speed so get the speed athletes to just do any distance work slowly and relaxed.

Really struggled with it today. Got too much lactate early in the set and never cleared it

Long course
500 back 500 free easy
Backstroke set all hard 50 3x100 150 200 6x50 (all around 36-39 per 50)
300 easy
500 free 2-15-150 free on 130 base
5-4-3-2-1 free on 120 base (heart rate at 180 by end)
4-4-3-2-1 easy
8x25 fast
200 easy

Re the rationale for sets and training to the person who posted above, distance and sprint are completely (almost fundamentally ) different.

Proper sprint training is about power and strength and attention to detail. Need to get stronger out of the pool and in it.

Proper distance training is just lots of aerobic training and lots of threshold training - in the pool. Aerobic swimming in the pool is still kind of fast. Think your IM pace and better. If your shoulders and arms aren’t hurting it’s too slow.

Building the stroke efficiency as you go. You can’t just drill. Relationship with the water is complex. Needs time spent doing it. But technique is very very important. How to get good technique? Swim consciousness

For the person who posted above, hard distance kills speed so get the speed athletes to just do any distance work slowly and relaxed.



Thanks for your thoughts. How do you differentiate or do you differentiate between aerobic training and threshold training? Would you suggest particular distance or is the effort the most important factor? In other words kind of fast longer efforts on short intervals and faster/harder efforts on longer intervals?

Steve

 How do you differentiate or do you differentiate between aerobic training and threshold training?

- yes I don’t do too much threshold training unless coming up to an event. Makes me feeltoo tired throughout the day. Threshold would be like 25-40 minutes above 8 out of 10 effort. Maybe 1.8 to 3km sets basically at best effort. But also not dropping the pace off , so you are finishing at or just faster than what you started at. Aerobic being 6 to 7.5 out of 10 and longer sets.

Obviously you can mix a bit of threshold into an aerobic set but if you want to do a really good quality threshold set then there is no going soft

In my head I save up a really high quality threshold set before an event - like a 20-30x100 holding a goal pace or 30-40x50 best effort on 20 seconds rest. As I train solo I can probably do these more often but mentally quite taxing


Would you suggest particular distance or is the effort the most important factor?

- for a threshold set I would probably say nothing longer than 200s, mostly 100s. Classic threshold is 18-30 x100 on different time intervals giving 15-45 seconds rest going as fast as possible. Don’t have to do as fast as possible all the time but it’s really good to try it out. So a good threshold set might be -
3x100 (7.5 effort) 3x100 (8.5 effort) 3x100 (9 effort) - all 2 or 3 times through. As effort goes up a bit more rest. Look up kieiren Perkins heart rate sets.

Another really good set bob bowman and grant Hackett coach use a lot is a 40x50 set. Look up grant Hackett mid season speed set

Aerobic can be anything - longer sets and short rest or just 15-30 seconds rest after each 400 600 or 1k
I really like descending sets, start out aerobic end up real fast at threshold effort

I swim by myself and set my own sets but I also think just swimming more distance each week gets people fitter without too much thought being required on the particular sets. Most fish participants on here have had times where they have swam a lot and improved a lot. In the 70s and 80s distance swimming was pretty good and it was just double cross over kick swim till your stupid and blue in the face. Worked then and don’t see why it doesn’t work now

Waverider 101

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I both coach and swim and despite the fact I have been a swimmer for many years I'm questioning my approach and hoping to make improvements where needed. Despite years of experience, I find that I get into ruts and need to take the time to listen to others. Thanks again!

Steve

yesterday 9.5 mi run easy 96:35, 2 mi walk
today 3000 yd free + lots of goofing off/kicking

2 x (12 x 50) on :55, :50 (no break between sets)
50 kick
12 x 100 on 1:40
50 kick
2 x 50 on :50
50 kick
4 x 50 on :45
50 kick
300 easy

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD