Not sure how you looked before, but you ain't too pretty now.

Hey, big time thoughts and prayers from NC. We all wish you the best. I can tell by your posts that you'll be back in saddle. Please let us know if we can help you. If you need encouragement pick up the phone and call, or send your # and I'll call you. At times like this we need to rally around our fallen brother....

Best wishes,

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

First time poster. This thread was emailed to me and after reading it, I am absolutly apaluled.

This forum is exactly the reason why I do not waste my time in these forums.

Did you guys not see the OPs picture? Here it is again for those who did not see it.
http://i.pgu.me/TDRdB--q_original.png

This pour guy is asking for help, PERIOD. If you are unable to help, or care to bash other people and their choice of bikes, or their choice of riding positions in certain situations, please do so in another post as they have no relevance in helping the OP figure out what happened. The OP was not asking for your opinion on any club, group or bike choice.

I personally know the founder of WCTC and I do not agree with the way his posting came across, BUT, I am sure he had the best of intentions and only meant to help. No he does not know I am posting this, nor will he ever know.

Dave, I hope you figure out what happened. Sadly as the rules states, it's not a matter of when, but where we will fall and this is the risk we take. I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you have no lasting injuries from this unfortunate situation.

"This forum is exactly the reason why I do not waste my time in these forums."

and yet?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I can't even count how many times I will be looking ahead at the road and all the sudden hit something and wonder where it came from because I didn't see anything coming. Combine that with the 4-6" rocks scattered across del dios and you could have some major problems. I have hit one at 35+mph with an instant front blow out at the front of the swami ride and luckily coasted to a stop without getting run over. I can only imagine what would happen if i hit one of those in the aerobars. Has the guy who "crashed into" the OP come forward with his account? Until then I agree that nobody really knows what happened.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Sadly as the rules states, it's not a matter of when, but where we will fall and this is the risk we take.

There are things you can do to greatly avoid the possibility of crashing.

Mojozenmaster's 4 not so obvious things that a person can do to avoid crashing:

#1: Never go for a long ride (especially a group ride) the morning/day after a heavy rainstorm: there's too much debris/mud/sand on the road and too many new potholes.

#2: Be very careful riding on roads where trees or buildings cast long, dark shadows in front of you, as the shadows might camouflage a hazard in front of you.

#3: Always get off of your aerobars and on your hoods when crossing an intersection or outlet road.

#4: When on your aerobars and you see a huge semi truck coming in the opposite direction, get on the hoods so you can control your bike. I’ve seen people get knocked on their asses by the wind turbulence that follows the truck.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Do you really believe all of what you typed? You really think that if there are 15 people in a group, they all take equal turns? IF you believe that, there's really no point for stageracer, or anyone else to explain this to you, you're never gonna get it. And just because your not in your aero bars, that doesn't mean there is no benefit to riding a TT bike.

A scary picture indeed, and there, but for the grace of whatever you believe in, is anyone of us.

Sometimes accidents just happen, and it's not the result of any ill will or reckless behavior.

I think the takeaways here for me are that we ought to be sticking together as a community and while that may involve some self policing from time to time to assume or defend guilt really shouldn't be of any concern in light of no factual information. And of course I'll continue to put off the purchase of a TT bike, I don't care if it costs me time, it's not like I make a living racing.

Beat of luck and a speedy recovery to you Dave. I know from first hand experince that spinal injuries ar scary as hell, but you can come back.

Yes I believe what I typed because of the law of numbers. Yes there will be people who pull more and people who pull less. It doesnt matter if there are not equal turns or what, because it will still "average" to the same percentage riding in the pack. So basically by the law of numbers, in a 15 man group ride, a rider will be in the pack for 94% of the ride (average). If you cant understand that, not sure you will ever get it. There will be some guys who average on the front 10-15% and then by numbers there has to be guys that spend 1-2% at the front.

So if your going to spend the majority of a ride (around 88-96%, ballparking) in the pack (stageracer already said they dont ride in the aerobars in the pack) what advantages are there to a TT bike over a road bike in the group ride setting? It seems the geometry of the TT bike is setup for you to be in the aero position not sitting on the horns.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Well there are many scenarios...

1) pro ride/riders - international pros, olympians, national champions, pull a lot at the front and everybody else holds on, they do not go in the pack much and if they do they might stay in the aero bars because they trust the fellow riders

2) people with one bike - Some people only have one bike and still want to do group rides

3) stupid people - some people don't have enough power to stay with the group in a road bike so their only way to not get dropped is to ride in the aerobars, that way they can tell all their coworkers how sweet they are by being able to stay with the front group on the group ride

speaking of statistics: 50% of people are below average in intelligence so in a ride of 60 people that means 30 of them are less intelligent than the other 30

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Okay, I guess you have little to no experience in either a road race, CAT 5 doesn't count, or in a group ride full of ex pro's, current pro's, world champs, etc. There is probably an average of 50 people on this ride. Of those 50 people there are probably 5 or 6 people that do the majority of the work. Now, if you think thats right, or wrong, or not a workout or whatever you want to think, thats your issue. But I can assure you that just sitting in is a rough day most weeks.

Now as to why would you ride a TT bike even if you're not in the aero bars? Well, its not about "advantage". Most road guys that ride a TT bike could care less about some aero advantage a TT bike will give them while out training. If they are riding their TT bike its either to simply get miles in on it, yes it matters even if you're not in the aero bars.

But the bottom line really comes down to this. Maybe you're just not that comfortable of a bike handler. And thats irrelevant here. But what I can assure you of is this. There are many people out there that are more then capable of riding a TT bike, in the aero bars if they want, in a group, in tight space. I can assure you I'd rather ride next to Horner at 40 in his aero bars then most other people I've seen ride a bike.

#5: If you care for your safety, never ride in a group larger than 5 riders. Make sure you know these people and know that they are of similar skill/ability. If it is a group ride larger than 5 where you are not sure who you are riding with........split....... Do a solo ride and enjoy your solitude instead of worrying about reading the minds of people who might make you crash.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

One other thing to add. Many of the people that show up on their TT bike ride a bit to get to the start of the ride. The ride itself is about 40ish miles, its not uncommon for someone to ride 20 miles one way to get to the start of the ride.

First off, where have I said it is an issue with only 5-6 guys working at the front? (If your mad that I brought up actual numbers for a 15 man ride, sorry, but you cant really argue numbers). Unless you want to argue that only the 5-6 guys at the front are the only ones in the TT bike and all the rest are sitting on the horns or on road bikes in the pack 100% of the time (but you already mention that there are guys riding in the aerobars). Just my own case study, I have been apart of 4 different tri club rides in 10 years and each of these 4 club rides included group rides where there were riders riding in the aero while in the paceline/pack.

Thank you for your explanation and you basically proved the point I was making (I just took a scientific roundabout way). That people are riding in the aerobars for more than just the front (not saying its right or wrong). I was bringing it up because the discussion was about "safety" that was being discussed earlier in this thread. I do think it is inherently unsafer for a 50 man group ride to have people riding in the aerobars in a close tight pack part of the ride. Even if we take our focus off just this one group ride example, (and talk general terms).

So I dont really think it matters what level of skill your riding skills are, is it more dangerous to ride in the Aerobars in the pack than if the entire ride was made of road bikes? Even if the entire 50 man pack is LANCE and his Pro friends, isnt it still more dangerous/unsafe to ride in the aerobars for the entire ride than to ride in a road bike? (I'm not saying its wrong to do that, just saying as a matter of which is safer).

That was basically the point by an earlier poster, and stageracer seemed to take offense to his comment.

I wasnt trying to say that what yall are doing on that super fast ride wrong, I was simply making the notion that riding in the aerobars occurs more than what he wanted to admit, which brought up the issue about safety vs a road bike group ride setting (I'm guessing it is inherently more dangerous to be in a 50 man peloton with 22 guys in the aerobars than in a 50 man peloton with all road bikes). That was all I was getting at, nothing more, nothing less.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Not directed at anyone particular here, but I rode with the swamis last winter for two weeks and since I only had my tri bike on that trip I checked out the swamis website to see what it says about aero bars. see below.


Aerobars are allowed on group rides BUT:

Only use the “aero” position when you're off the front (i.e. no one else is in front of you) or when you’re WAY behind the group (i.e. by yourself). Do not use the “aero” position when in the pack ever (i.e. Don't be the guy 5th in line tucked down low and tight on your "aero" bars)!!! We have seen it dozens of times where "that guy" is trying to roll in the pace line while being all "aero", and we have see it lots of times where "that guy" is either way sketch or in some cases that guy hits the deck, don't be that guy! Seriously stay off the "aero" bars and kindly keep your hands on the handle bars where the brakes are and you have maximum control, for yours and for everyone’s safety.

Also a guick point, that being in the draft in 5th or 10th position in the paceline going into your areo position isn't going to gain you much speed since you are already out of the majority of the wind by vitrue of being in the draft. What going aero will do is make you a lot less stable.

I tried to excuse myself from this part of the conversation but I couldn't resist.

<< So I dont really think it matters what level of skill your riding skills are, is it not more dangerous to ride in the Aerobars in the pack than if the entire ride was made of road bikes? Even if the entire 50 man pack is LANCE and his Pro friends, isnt it still more dangerous/unsafe to ride in the aerobars for the entire ride than to ride in a road bike? (I'm not saying its wrong to do that, just saying as a matter of which is safer).

in a lot of situations this would be true. But on this particular ride I would say it is the exception. In comparing the two rides, the Saturday Swami's ride and the Wednesday ride, there are more wrecks in a couple of weeks on the Saturday ride then there are in a whole year on the Wednesday ride. The skill level (not trying to be elitist) is so much higher on the Wednesday ride. How many weekend warriors have all morning off to do a ride on a Wednesday starting at 8:15am? Not many, most of the people on this ride are full time cyclists or full time triathlon pro's or at least close to it.
I stopped doing the Saturday ride back in 2003 because of the risk involved with that ride. But the Wednesday ride, while similar in difficulty, I have no problem doing from a safety standpoint.

Think of it this way, when the dust settles on this ride and it's broken down, the front group is usually about 5 - 8 riders and it turns into something akin to a team time trial.

PS. back to the real topic at hand, any updates on how Dave is doing today? That's all that really matters right now.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Now that right there is funny. Funnier than you realize or intended, I suspect! Repeat after me..."DOH!"

I think everyone was talking about roadie rides, we don't even want to get started with the tri club ride. I saw them riding in the aerobars in the middle of the highway(55mph) going against traffic weaving around the TNT people also running in the middle of the road against traffic.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

I guess we are making progress in sorting out UNCs crash details.

The word has spread and the holes are being filled in one by one thanks to riders out that day, thanks.


If you were in the pile up or know who was in the pile up please contact David however you can if you havent already.

Crahses happen and they are always upsetting.

KW

Mike,

I guess what I was arguing/asking, is that no matter what the skill level, will it be more dangerous to ride a group ride in a "team time trial" format where 90% of the guys in the whole of the pack are in the TT areobars at all times? I would think it will always be safer (hand position, body position on the bike) in a group setting for everyone to be on a road bike. I fully understand how awesome pro's have bike handling skills, and I am in no way saying that it is wrong for them to ride like that.

I wasnt trying to offend anyone or say that it is right/wrong, just bringing up what in fact is "safer".

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I think you just have to know who you are riding with. Like I said, to me the Wednesday ride is an exception and I have no problem with the people on that ride riding a TT bike or being in the bars. By the time the ride gets to the point where people other then the very front person is down in the bars, the group is smaller and the speed is pretty high and its more like a TTT workout at that point.
What I don't think you can do is make a blanket statement that will apply to every rider and every group ride across the board.

Earlier Matt alluded to the fact that a lot of people ride about 20 miles each way just to get to the ride as part of a reason why many are on TT bikes and why it is still useful to ride a TT bike in this group setting. I'll add to that, the last time I managed to finish with the front group, there were 7 of us, where we started with about 40. That means there were a lot of people strung out behind in smaller groups and riding solo. I know the times when I get dropped on this ride (which is often), if I am on my road bike, I basically sit up the rest of the ride. If I'm on my TT bike, I still make it a workout and I'm down in the bars hammering solo.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Unfortunate, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Lest this be a reminder to all that its "The Coast Olympics" out on the road this time of year. Packs, TTT's and pacelines etc. can/will come out of nowhere, stare you down, then race by at any time (only to be caught at the next red light in most cases)!

[relpy]Spending night or two in hospital. Severe concussion, occipital skull fracture (CT just came back) chipped teeth, back injury, but alive.[/reply]
And posting on ST!

Seriously - many, many (((hugs))) and wishes for a fast recovery. I haven't read the thread, but I hope you get some info, and please keep us updated.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Thanks for wishing me well, I feel pretty good at the moment, actually. Maybe because I was clear across the country from where the crash occurred and that makes me not-the-guy-who-crashed.

Several people expressed similar sentiments and I have to disagree with you. Accidents don't just happen. People take risks, make poor judgements and people get hurt. There may not have been any ill will or intention, but that means next to nothing. The responsible party needs to be found and exposed to help the original OP. This other person, by eyewitness accounts left the scene of the accident that they were involved in. Did they cause it? I don't know, but they did not hang around to talk to the police. With as serious injuries as this the police would likely do a lot to reconstruct what happened. Who was passing who, at what speeds and distances etc.

I know some nice people who caused a bad accident (in a car). It was not their intention and they felt bad, but they stayed to help, talk to the police, and they were held responsible. We should be encouraging this other rider to come forward to the OP/police and be questioned. We should be sticking together to help the OP, not someone who is hiding from the law.

Somebody sounds guilty.
I've come across WCTC on a few occasions and have been passed a little too close with no courtesy call that they were passing. Some gave a mean look as they passed. If you ask me it was only an amount of time until they hurt someone trying to display their dominance. WCTC needs to stop making counter accusations and start talking to their people. This post by WCTC looks a little shady.