Ouch. Get better. That was clearly a bad crash.

-Jot

Dang Dave! That must have been one hell of a crash! It really sucks that no one is claiming to have seen the accident. If they had, the EMS or Police would have certainly got their info. I am contemplating buying a little Scorpion camera and mounting it under my seat. It is tiny but will take an 8gb card which equals 2 hours of video. For $110 bucks I will probably buy 2 so I have enough battery and memory for most of my rides. That way there will be no question about who approached from the rear. I am sick of the inconsiderate motorists and now we have to worry about other cyclists? Sucks. Just plain sucks.

Hope you can track down these clowns. Not surprised that this happened to you and they didn't stop after the contact.

In the past, I also had to go into the ditch after being clipped by some idiot in a pack who gave me and other riders they were passing zero room.
Luckily I didn't go down.

Rude and inconsiderate scumbags.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I thought I had a bad crash last Saturday; yours is worse! I'm not local so I didn't see it, but get well.

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Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines. -Enzo Ferrari

That just makes me fucking sick. Sorry for the F-bomb but if there ever was an appropriate use for it... this is it.

Unreal.

Get well and glad you're still breathing oxygen.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Dave,

We were almost at Cielo with a teammate who had a flat and saw the ambulance/fire coming to get you.

The riders that rolled by you were on the back end of the Swamis A ride from West Coast triathlon (one guy had an Carbon Elite Razor).

They were rolling pretty hard into RSF so I dont think they knew you went down (the headwind east was pretty rough today).

Ill inquire on the swamis board.

http://www.facebook.com/...Club/135978169762149

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

I had a pretty bad accident mid May, and don't remember squat. I've love a video, not to see the other cyclist/driver/trucker/steam-roller-driver...as it was a solo accident, but to see just how in the world I broke what I did.

I went back to the scene last weekened, and nope, not a thing came back that I didn't already remember. around 2-3 seconds before (guessing from last thing I saw to where I ended up), and waking up.

No chance of nightmares, just easing the sense of curiousity.

Welcome to San Diego!

Twice in recent days, I've been buzzed by people on TT bikes (one triathlete and another looked like a roadie) while doing an easy ride on my road bike. In both instances, there was plenty of space, I was well to the right, and there was no other traffic.

"The guy who clipped me went down briefly but got back on the bike and left me unconscious in the road."

That is unfathomable. There are already enough airhead drivers on the road its hard to believe fellow riders and triatheletes would exhibit this kind of behavior. You should stop by the next West Coast tri team meeting. Good luck and hope everything works out.

Well in this day and age it won't take long for the dude who left UNC on the road to be outed with web forums and the small world created by the internet. Wow.

Glad you are alive, sad there are people who would leave you in the gutter, but it won't be long b/f he is standing on an island. It's not as if he can say he didn't know you went down, he went down with you.

What the heck is a Tarheel doing in Cali?

That is disgusting. How can one triathlete leave another for dead in the middle of the road, having caused the accident that put him there.

http://www.athlinks.com/...Tri-Club-(WCTC).aspx

Bombard their club chairman. At the very least he should pay for all your equipment, you are lucky to be alive.

I hope you heal up soon, just try to eat healthy, good food makes the day go by faster.

---

Strava:https://www.strava.com/athletes/20890878

I hope you find that worthless fuck and ruin his life.
yea, it was "only a bike wreck" but suppose it happened on the back roads and they didnt find his rotting carcass for a few days ?


do good samatarian laws apply to this ?

This really makes me sick. I hope you make a quick recovery.

Im not sure legally-but the other rider left the scene of an accident. (California Vehicle Code 20001 (a)

What-ever the CT scan indicated - sounds bad - heal quick and listen to the doctors.

Good work from the CalTain employee. Its sickening to think the guy would leave, but how about the rest of his team? One of their own crashes and they keep going - which is bad...Or did they wait for him and not ask - WTF happened?? - or did they ask and not give a sh_t. Seems like the whole club is pretty low class as none of those responses are acceptable.

.

Just sent a link to this thread to someone who knows people in that club.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

The guy who clipped me went down briefly but got back on the bike and left me unconscious in the road.

Holy crap! This is for real? What kind of thought process rationalizes this kind of behavior? Whomever this was needs to be criminally prosecuted! I can't even believe I read this!

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Steve Perkins

It turns my stomach. Even if he didn't go down, stop.

To the OP, heal fast. And the Road Id... If you weren't awake, they would have, but once you woke up and could talk their really was no need to look at the ID.

CS

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---

To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.

I owe a serious debt of gratitude to the CalTrans gentleman who protected me from motorists. Thank you, sir! I wish I could find his contact info.

Updated on the Swamis google group.

http://groups.google.com/group/swamis-cycling

I heard some riders talking about a crash while having coffee at Nytro post ride.

Ill keep mining Dave, keep getting better.

Hope you get some good news from the doc.

I posted it in his Facebook page, so hopefully lots of people will see it.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I've read that 10 times and everytime I read it I think about my wife and how freaked out she would be if she got a call from the hospital. I wrecked pretty bad once, but I called her from the road. The fear in her voice then still rings in my head, I cannot even fathom what your wife went/is going through.

:(

CS

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---

To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.

I am a member of Swami's and I was on that ride (granted, near the front). Unfortunately I did not know about the crash, and I am simply appalled at this development. We've had problems with Kona triathletes before (flying down Del Dios in the aero bars and not pointing out people or debris).

Last year around this time I was in a paceline going right through that area, maybe 5th guy back. Someone in their aero bars was on the front going downhill around 35mph and didn't point out a cluster of large rocks in the road, and just swerved left. The ripple of the swerve in the riders meant that I could not react in time and had to plow right through the rocks. Instant double blowout at 35mph. I managed to keep the bike upright and coast to a stop on my rims, but I could have easily been in your shoes. It's this same stupid shit I see all too often.

Yesterday the group on Swami's was unusually big. I remember purposely moving up the field right before that area because I felt unsafe sitting in the rear of the ride. I am appalled and ashamed that a fellow cyclist (triathlete, whatever) would cause a crash, go down, and keep on going with someone on the tarmac. My deepest apologies, and I wish you a speedy recovery.

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My Science Blog
"The only fair race is the race against the clock" -Anquetil

Hope you heal fully and quickly so that you are able to get back out there soon. I must say that I appreciate the manner in which you have posted here, refraining from hyperbolic statements and/or attacks etc., maybe that will compel someone to come forward at some point. I am saddened that the other rider involved did not choose to check on your condition and act appropriately. I am also saddened that others in the group who were not involved in the crash did not stop and provide assistance. Perhaps they ALL were unaware of the crash, but seems unlikely.

I am one of the founders of the West Coast Tri Club and Dave I wanted to first and foremost say I hope you have a quick recovery. I have received several emails regarding this accident and the mass email that was sent to the Swami's Club. I have contacted the individual that was mentioned in hopes of gaining some understanding on what happened.

Our club had at least 3 groups that were on Del Dios Saturday and the group of 4 or 5 that you mention had some very well respected members of the multi sport community riding. One member in particular was a woman that coaches and has been a part of the triathlon world for many years.

It is important to not make assumptions and from what I have read there have been a lot of assumptions made here. Dave I am very sorry you went down and I know I hate flying down Del Dios, but from what it sounds like you are not sure what exactly happened and you are trying your best to figure it out. Let me help you out with the information that I am aware of.

Our member that rides the Elite bike was in the number 2 position in a group of 5. They had a woman (coach) that had fallen back during the descent. There were not any members of this group that "went down" at any point during the ride yesterday. Had anyone gone down or clipped another individual not only would the woman that was trailing have stopped to help, but someone would have seen the accident. You said that the person went down and got back on their bike and left you. With out a doubt I know for a fact that was not from any of our members or other individuals that they were riding with. Our cycling and race kits stand out and perhaps you just remember seeing members out on the road yesterday and you are doing your best to recall what happened.

We would like to help you figure out what exactly happened, but before the rest of the community starts formulating theories it is important to realize the consequences of those allegations.
Posting a picture from a facebook post of one of our members going down during a weekly pace line workout is not grounds to make the assumptions that this is typical of our members. Our club is comprised of many elite athletes that have been riding for many years and our group always has the respect to look out for the safety and well being of our members and other cyclists on the roads.

Dave, once again I hope you have a quick recovery and if there is any information we can offer to help out we will be happy to do so.

Regards,
Garrett

I always laugh/cringe when I see triathletes in a pace line on the aerobars, especially as it sounds like groups of riders that are unknown by all. Just a recipe for disaster and as from the comments and pictures being shown, certainly sounds like bike handling skills are lacking (which is common among triathletes).

---

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I owe a serious debt of gratitude to the CalTrans gentleman who protected me from motorists. Thank you, sir! I wish I could find his contact info.

A letter to the head of your district would probably be appreciated

http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist11/contactus.htm

A wonder WHY they would be in a pace-line. You can't get in one "legally" in a race - so why do it in practice?

I just assume its the roadies on tri-bikes that can't seem to break the drafting mind-set.

My guess is that these clubs are probaly really large and basically all have "group" outings. I assume they do group runs, group rides, group swims (the tri club I am on, has a group ride, but I've never ridden it because I imagine they have all sorts of people mixed up with road/tri bikes, and I just dont really want to ride in a group setting like that).. I'm guessing by the pics on the club websites clubs like these certainly allow pacing with aerobars. Once a ride starts, your never going to have a legal pace line (my guess is that the rides dont even suggest riding legal distance apart as most "club" rides dont), as it will all bunch up, so it'll be a bunch of tri riders riding wheel to wheel like a road group ride (I myself have seen this happen with 4 different club rides throughout NC/VA). Group riding is fine when your on a road bike and you can have a bit more control with the brakes, etc., and as evident by pictures, stories, it sounds like there are many that lack ettiquette/bike handling (not singling out just this club, this happens all across tri club rides).

Edit: Not to say road riders dont crash or have bad ettiquette, but I would think your reaction time and overall bike handling is more dangerous in a tight group setting than on a road bike.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Ok once again I will reiterate what was said before people continue to make assumptions and continue to make this a thread where fingers are pointed at any group whether triathletes or not.

It is now evident that this had nothing to do with the group of triathletes that Dave had remembered. No one in that group clipped anyone and no one went down and certainly not treated by medics.
I hope you are able to figure out what happened.

Update: doc says I'm out for IM AZ :-(

"Welcome to San Diego!"

HaHa,

From my limited experience I think that holds true for all of Southern California.
Recreational cycling there seems to have degenerated into an exhibitionist dick-measuring contest.

I blame LanceaLot.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Please explain? What evidence do we have that they were not the ones who clipped him?

It is wrong to make the assumption that the members of your club, whom UNC_tri_guy saw, were the ones who hit him. He worded his post very well to state only the facts he remembers and never did he accuse your club.

It is wrong to make the assumption that the members of your club, whom UNC_tri_guy saw, were definitely not the ones who hit him. At this point, we really don't know.

I understand you standing up for your club against unsupported allegations that they were definitely involved in the crash. But keep in mind, (1) UNC_tri_guy never made that allegation so your posted response should not have been directed at him and (2) you have no more proof your riders are innocent than the people saying they are guilty have.

Dave,
Sorry for the confusion here. I was not implying that you made the assumptions or posted the pictures. It was in reference to the other people that had posted. Based on the email that was sent out to the Swami's email list it was hard to determine if you felt a WCTC member was the one in fact that clipped you. Glad to here that is not the case.

We actually just found out that the last member of the small group that was out yesterday was actually the one that called the medics for you. She had fallen off the back of the other riders and actually saw your crash. I am sure you will here from her, but it sounded like she felt either you or the other rider hit something on the road (maybe a reflective light) and caused one to crash taking the other with them.

Garrett

Now, "We actually just found out that the last member of the small group that was out yesterday was actually the one that called the medics for you. She had fallen off the back of the other riders and actually saw your crash. I am sure you will here from her, but it sounded like she felt either you or the other rider hit something on the road (maybe a reflective light) and caused one to crash taking the other with them."

I would get your story straight before posting it on the internet. I sincerely hope this is a result of you posting before you had all the details and I hope you can see where these two accounts paint very different pictures. You say none of your club went down but now say that either UNC_Tri_Guy or the person who hit him struck something in the road causing them both to crash? Are you saying the woman saw someone not a member of your club go down? Or was your initial report that no member of your club went down incorrect?
Also, I thought if she saw it she would have stayed to help? You told us she saw it, we know it was a motorist who who stopped to make sure he didn't get run over. We also know the EMT spoke with a man who gave an account but there is no mention of a woman giving an account? Did she not stick around that long?
You don't owe me or ST answers to any of the above questions. You do them to owe them to UNC_Tri_Guy though.

"We actually just found out that the last member of the small group that was out yesterday was actually the one that called the medics for you. She had fallen off the back of the other riders and actually saw your crash. I am sure you will here from her, but it sounded like she felt either you or the other rider hit something on the road (maybe a reflective light) and caused one to crash taking the other with them"

?:-O
Speechless.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

 
This doesn't seem to jive with what the CalTrans man saw. Maybe someone needs to talk to him and the paramedic. Maybe the paramedic remembers the kit of the person refusing tx.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Yknot,
I am filling in information as it comes to me.
There were 3 men riding and 2 women. The 3 men and 1 woman were ahead of the accident. The 2nd woman was behind the two people that crashed. Neither of whom were in her group.
I actually don't have to worry about getting my story straight. I had nothing to do with this. And it is clear that people posting pics of our members in this forum and assuming they had anything to do with Dave's terrible accident is fairly premature.

I was simply trying to clear the air because I don't ride with anyone that wouldn't help out a fallen cyclist or one in need.

The 2nd woman said she called 911 to report the accident. Perhaps the car got to Dave before she did. It doesn't matter who called or in what order they called, the important issue was that she saw both parties go down and non of them were members of her group. I don't know and really it doesn't matter because the only person that could actually know what happened was the individual that was in the crash with Dave. No one knows who that person was.

Riding is extremely dangerous and they often say it's not if, but rather when you will go down. As stated before I wish all the best to Dave.

I don't have all the information and was simply trying to clear the air and hopefully bring in some information that might help.

Sounds like you should have offered any help and wellwishes then clam'd up. Your inconsistencies show that you are obviously trying to deflect any accountability before all of the details come in. What if in the end it turns out to be one of your people??? It will only look worse for you and your group and your words will definitely be used against you. It also makes you sound less sincere.

None of this story makes any sense.

First off this whole situation is sickening. How it is turning into a cover your @ss fest is even worse. It sounds like the only person to act with any decency was the Cal Train employee and perhaps the "woman" who called the paramedics. That being said, there are a lot of information gaps in the "facts" of this situation and I can only pray that it is being criminally investigated. For all of the cyclist traffic, many from the "club" and no one can ID this phantom cyclist or even confirm seeing him? Wouldn't the elite group have passed him just before passing the victim? The club story reeks of CYA and as an impartial observer believe some police interviews are warranted.

To UNC_Tri_Guy I hope that your recovery is full and quick. To have multiple compression fractures from a cycling accident is alarming and thank goodness you don't have any neural deficit! Hopefully they can treat you with a minimally invasive procedure and that you don't require a fusion. Heal quickly and stay strong; don't let these pathetic excuses for human beings get you down. You will be back on the bike soon and we'll see you at IMAZ next year!

Maybe you should get facts together for the police and actually help resolve this situation. Until then I would strongly advise you find another forum to post your inconsistent jibberish.

From your previous post it was not clear to me if the rider who hit UNC_Tri_Guy was in your club or not. That was something important to clarify.
I understand your desire to defend the club from allegations but I would support others recommendations that weighing in on this forum before you have all the facts looks very bad.
Also, just since there are allegations flying I don't want to hide behind anonymous usernames. Feel free to PM me and I will send contact info (in case you want it for whatever reason). We are all in agreement in wishing the best recovery for UNC_Tri_Guy. i will keep him in my thoughts and prayers.

-Joshua

Ah, the beauty of slowtwitch, just slamming people because. Dave simply asked if anyone had any details on his accident and it has turned into attacking Garrett and the WCTC. (And Dave I'm not talking about you.) Garrett has simply given his account of what has happened and you all continue to attack. Had he not said anything you still would have attacked him/ WCTC. None of you people were there except Dave, back off and wait for some facts before just attacking people.

You should stop posting, really. Your attempt at covering for the group makes it only sound worse.

"What if your lawyer doesn't ask the question?" "Vinny will!"
"It's not about asking questions, it's about asking the right questions. What if Vinny asks a question and the person has all the answers, it makes us look worse."

You've answered all the questions, but come out looking worse.

CS

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To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.

threads like this are why I come here.
Next!
Igot

I don' think "Garrett" said he was there.

His comments seem all to be hearsay and a clumsy attempt on damage control.

It is also evident that the cyclists/triathletes (regardless of their affiliation) who "came by" the accident all fell into the "ride on but feel guilty" and "ride on guilt-free" group of the last poll on this site.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

There were 3 men riding and 2 women. The 3 men and 1 woman were ahead of the accident. The 2nd woman was behind the two people that crashed. Neither of whom were in her group.

I call bullshit. 5 riders (3 men 2 women) in the group. 4 riders (3 plus 1) in front of the crash, 1 behind the crash makes 5, but the crash was caused by a 6th rider? Based on your statement, discounting mystery rider #6, it was either caused by the last person in the group of 4 or by the fifth rider (woman) trailing.

When adding the statement by the paramedic: spoke with FD/paramedic who treated me. According to him, the guy who clipped me declined treatment and bolted. it was a male rider who caused the crash which must the last in the group of 4.

If you have any standards in your club, leaving the scene of accident like that should result in expulsion.

The "facts" are why he is being questioned! His comments directly contradict what the OP has posted and in some cases what he previously posted. The "attacks" are simply saying that he should stop posting until these facts are proven and stop putting a patchwork story together that makes it appear that he is deflecting blame. Perhaps you should put your personal feelings aside and look at the posts dispassionately as everyone on here save you seems to be of like mind.

Have you ridden Del Dios before!? It happens to be one of the most bike traveled routes, especially on a Saturday. There easily could have been another rider behind the group of 5. Also if you've never ridden Del Dios, it's a screaming downhill where it wouldn't be uncommon if something did happen right behind you, you probably wouldn't hear a thing. But with your deductions, I'm assuming you're probably familiar with this road.

Garrett is a good guy and I don't think anyone is trying to cover for anyone.

no problem my friend! Have a great day!

agree with you de-tri-mental. Dave, get better man! it's hard for me to believe WCTC guy when he wasn't there, and seems quite defensive and comes across condescending; which then leads the readers to 'assume' anyhow.
Dave, hope you recover well and figure out the facts that may help you make sense of the situation.

According to his own story, the 5th rider, a woman, was behind the crash. The only explanation why it would not be one of the group of 4 is if a 6th rider had joined their group, riding second to last.

Looks like there are some updates over there on the swamis board.
Must be one heck of a busy/dangerous road....

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

To all:

I am a member of West Coast Tri and I ride an Elite Razor TT bike. First, I want to express that I hope Dave has a speedy recovery. Also I want to let you ALL know that NONE of the people in my group or I clip Dave as some my previously written/concluded that a WCTC rider "possibly" with an Elite bike did. I was descending down Del Dios with 3 other people in this order: my training partner Trevor (also on WCTC), myself, a guy named John and my Coach Terry. I remember passing a rider with a Garmin jersey, which was apparently Dave. Trevor, myself and John all cleanly passed by Dave and another rider in the street. My coach Terry was back a little further and watched us pass without any issues. She then passed Dave on her own to reconnect with us. After that we obviously can not comment on what we did not see. But what we can comment on is that we did not make contact with Dave or see him go down.

However another person that was riding with us earlier, named Julie did witness Dave and a few other people go down. According to what Julie told Trevor and I is that she was riding with a guy named Bill in a Phit Group kit. Julie indicated that she did not see exactly what made Dave crash but she said that all of a sudden she saw him and another rider in the air and then went down. Julie indicated that after that Bill went down along with another guy riding a white Colnago. Julie said she called 911 and that all of those riders got themselves together along with another rider that stopped who was an orthopedic doctor and stayed with Dave until the Medics got there.

Again, I did not witness this as I am just relaying what Julie told me happened. I would appreciate it if people would stop arguing on here about roadies and triathletes. That's lame. Someone got hurt out on the road and that's all the matters. Not what type of bike you ride.

Also, Garrett is a great friend of mine and someone I have the utmost respect for. He did not mean any disrespect in his previous post. He was only trying to look out for his friends and teammates.

-Scott

Check this thread of Julie's account....

http://groups.google.com/...ead/e49dae6b0d86a552

uh, you new here? ;)

All the best Dave, get well now, kick ass later. Don't forget to post up what the doc says.

Thanks for posting, good to hear an actual witness' account.

hi --
i don't know who you are but I am certainly sorry to hear that you had such a horrific accident. I hope you have a speedy recovery.

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******************************************
Have Fun ** Tri Hard ** Be Kind
******************************************

OP,

Best to you and your family, and godspeed in recovery.

Unreasonable assumption. I have never seen or heard of roadies riding their TT bikes in a paceline. By definition, they have road bikes, and one would think they would ride those in group rides. Usually, when I see a tri-bike in a group ride, it is a triathlete who only owns that one bike, and many have the good sense to stay off the aerobars unless they are off the back, or perhaps at the front. Funny thing, I regularly do a ride around here with a local tri club, but most people are on road bikes, since it is a group ride. There are a few idiots, however, who insist on getting in the aerobars at inappropriate times. One guy who does that consistently still has his race number on the bike from last year's IM AZ!

And just like that all the ST BS stops. Thanks Scott, appreciate you stepping in to clarify and stop this foolishness. Please also pass along our thanks to Julie for stopping and rendering aid. Dave, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

 

[/reply]


And just like that all the ST BS stops. Thanks Scott, appreciate you stepping in to clarify and stop this foolishness. Please also pass along our thanks to Julie for stopping and rendering aid. Dave, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[/reply]

Wrong. The ST BS will continue whether in this thread or another. Those who make spurious accusations simply move on without apology and without learning from the experience. It is so easy on the anonymous internet...

So very true!!

<< I have never seen or heard of roadies riding their TT bikes in a paceline.

also not a good assumption for here in the San Diego area. On the regular Wednesday ride there are many roadies that show up on their time trial bikes. Thurlow Rogers, one of the best over 50 roadies in the World regularly rides his Trek TTX on the Wednesday group ride and he's never done a triathlon.

Dave, hope you make a speedy recovery and if I can help with anything don't hesitate to PM me.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Sure, but do they ride on the aerobars in close proximity (like a regular group ride)? If so, I wouldn't want to ride anywhere near them, no matter how much of an accomplished pro they might be. That's simply irresponsible.

So this kind of ties in with the OP that someone clipped him and they went down.

So does either Bill or Julie have the identify of the other rider who flew through the air? Because it sounds like that is the douchebag who needs to step forward and take responsibility for his actions.

@AZTRIGUY

See example above. Told ya so...

This is the email that was sent to Dave from Julie.
Rather than people calling the other cyclist that went down with Dave a "douchebag" or any other names it is important to actually know the road we are all talking about. This road is by far one of the more dangerous stretches in San Diego and can easily have a couple thousand cyclist on it during the weekends. People ride fast and close. Dave unfortunately was seriously injured and really has no idea what happened. The reflectors that Julie mentions in the email can cause a rider to loose control very easily when you have trucks flying by and you are in excess of 35mph. As you will read from Julie's email all riders were instructed to leave the scene. With thousands of people on the road it is hard to know if the other rider will ever come forward, but at those speeds it is hard to know who is at fault or if blame should even be placed. In San Diego we have riders crashing every day and on the Swami's ride which was a part of this stretch where Dave went down there are accidents very frequently and this is a road bike group ride. Road or TT it is all dangerous.


"Hey Dave,
I am the woman who called 911 for you yesterday on Del Dios. I was riding
2-people back from you when you crashed. Unfortunately, I did not see anything
happen that I can attribute to the cause of the crash so I am sorry I can't
offer you any more information on that. One our way back to the coast, talking
to one of the other two riders that went down (who also didn't see anything
happen), we discussed possibly that you hit one of those little white reflectors
along the side of the road (but, again, I really don't know and this is my
opinion).
From my vantage point, all I saw was your body flying in the air and the two
other guys in front of me tumbling over you. Somehow I managed the avoid
everyone and got my cell out first to call 911. There was a group of about 5 of
us who stayed with you until the paramedics came, one who was an orthopedic
surgeon who attended to you, (stabilized your neck and wouldn't let you get up,
etc) until they arrived. The Cal Trans guy came up behind our group and put his
truck behind us with his flashers and stepped out onto the road in a reflective
vest to alert oncoming traffic. Immediately after the crash, you were
completely unconsious and laying in a slump on the side of the road. As we
waited for the ambulance to arrive, we kept trying to talk to you and you
started to gain some awareness, asking what happened and how your bike was, etc.
I did not notice your RoadID until about the time that the medics arrived and
my cell was on lock-down from having called 911, so I could not make that call
to your wife. Sorry I did not leave any contact information, while some of the
medics were working on you and talking to the other riders who stopped, I was
cleaning up debris from the bike lane.
I am really sorry that I don't have more information to offer you regarding what
caused the crash, but please know that there were about 5 of us who stayed with
you (2 of whom were riders that also went down) until the ambulance came and
loaded you up. After they arrived and started treating you, they told us they
would take care of you and your bike and that we should carry on.
I hope you heal fast.
Julie"

yes, this is a regular group ride, anywhere from 30 - 60 people in a group that included several world champions, national champions, Olympic medalists and even an Ironman champ or two mixed in.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Sounds like an horrific accident.

Really hope you get some clarity on the accident. It would have been a coincidence had you clipped a reflector and crashed at just the same moment that another rider came past. Its possible though.

Heal well !

Sorry to belabor the point, but you didn't answer my question - do they ride in the same close proximity as a regular group roadie ride? In my opinion, it doesn't matter if they are world champions, national champions, etc. - it is inherently unsafe to ride in your aerobars in the same close proximity as one would find in a group ride. No matter who is doing it.

Thanks Cougie!

I am actually feeling great now. But then I am clear across the country from where the accident occurred, and not even the dude who crashed...so...maybe you meant to respond to someone else?! And of course it IS possible that the OP clipped a reflector and crashed in front of another rider who then also went down. "Possible", I said.

I read through the whole thread so to try to get a sense of the whole picture. I think that the club in question acted properly. We may not know exactly what caused the crash, but from what I am seeing, it doesn't seem like it was this group or maybe even the cause of a rider clipping another.

However, as a fairly new rider myself, I do see kamikaze style riding on fast descents far too often. Sometimes these riders come way too close to other riders not in their group. Sometimes they pass on both sides, and you have no idea where they are coming from. When you have only one lane and people passing at high speed on both sides, it can get nasty. When I say high speed, I myself am going at 60-65K/hr, so those that are passing me are going a lot faster. As many have siad, that road has thousands of cyclists on it, so it might be a bit irresponsible to be going super fast on that road when there are lots of riders and the hazards that have been mentioned.

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

well there is no hard and fast rule in this group. I would say generally no they aren't in the aero bars all the time in close proximity. Someone on the front or starting to fall off the rear (which is me usually) will be down in the aero bars but I think in the middle of the pack, no they aren't usually down in the aero bars. Once they get going, the pack is usually riding 28 - 32mph on the flats. But back to my original point, just because a group ride is made up of roadies, don't expect that they are never on a TT bike. Heck even Chris Horner shows up for this ride ocasionally on his TT bike.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Not to further hijack this thread in your 'belabored' point, let me speak for everyone on our Wed ride that if you're uncomfortable riding in a group situation where accomplished high-level racers who ride together every week for years on end ride in aerobars at the front of the field, then we're glad you recognize your abilities and stay in a ride you're more comfortable with. If you think that we sit in the middle of the pack in aerobars, then you really don't have any idea what is going on in the ride which Mike speaks of. Lots of big pulls from people who know what they're doing 'AT THE FRONT' and not really a ride for the novice or MOP rider.

Before you start calling people unsafe and make judgments on what's going on in a ride that you have no clue to, well.....let me just thank you again.

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

The OP said they “flew by me on the left.” I do not know this road, but I’ll bet it’s on a downhill section where you can really pick up some speed. Also, the road probably does not have a wide shoulder. If this is true, it would not take much (as in very minimal contact) for one rider in the pace-line to take out a rider they are passing downhill at 35MPH+ If the pace-line did not have at least an arms- length distance to pass the OP, they should not have passed until it was safe to do so. Seems to me it was the responsibility of the pace-line to show some self-control/prudence in their riding, since obviously (because of the noise of the headwind) the OP had no idea they were about to overtake him.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Mojo,

What is the basis of your assumption for the comment highlighted above?

You should read my posts in this thread before responding - I have reproduced the first one below, where I specifically stated that I have no problem with people riding in the aerobars if they are off the back, or at the front (& by that, I meant THE front rider). Anyone, whether it's Lance, Fabian, or anyone else, who rides in the aerobars in the middle of a closely-spaced group, is irresponsible and dangerous. Whether you are a novice, or an accomplished pro, when you are riding in the aerobars, you cannot reach the brakes or take evasive action as easily as you could on a road bike. This is cycling 101 - I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand. I never made any guesses about what actually occurs on your Wednesday ride - that was Mike's example. I merely stated common sense (perhaps not so common) safety issues.



-----------------------------

Unreasonable assumption. I have never seen or heard of roadies riding their TT bikes in a paceline. By definition, they have road bikes, and one would think they would ride those in group rides. Usually, when I see a tri-bike in a group ride, it is a triathlete who only owns that one bike, and many have the good sense to stay off the aerobars unless they are off the back, or perhaps at the front. Funny thing, I regularly do a ride around here with a local tri club, but most people are on road bikes, since it is a group ride. There are a few idiots, however, who insist on getting in the aerobars at inappropriate times. One guy who does that consistently still has his race number on the bike from last year's IM AZ!

its not too late to sign up, pre reg is still open http://www.fiestaisland.com/fiestatt/ttt

Yeah, I thought someone would bring up a team time trial situation. Obviously, much, much different than a public group ride.

Ah yes the elitists finally make a showing. If you're not good enough...sniff sniff... for the Swami's ride...sniff sniff...then you better know your place. And if you haven't ridden with us for years...sniff sniff... then you really don't belong... sniff sniff.

---

Live long and surf!

Just so I understand the dynamics of this epic super fast ride, for the pro's pro ride. So these guys are riding 80-90% of a ride (as part of the pack) on the bullhorns of a TT bike and only in the aerobar for the parts where they are pulling at the front or spit off the back? If that is the case why even ride a TT bike? Seems kinda silly to even ride in your TT bike if your only going to be in the aerobars when your pulling at the front. Even if it is say a 10-15 man group, the majority of your ride will be in the pack, and thus having to sit up in on the horns (according to what you say).

---

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

San Diego never struck me as the safest place for road/triathlon cycling. There are exceptions: a few spots in Carlsbad, Eastern SD County (Alpine/Boulevard/Ocotillo) Fiesta Island, Camp Pendleton.....

Most roads in San Diego 'proper' are too narrow, too heavily congested with automobile traffic and too heavily congested with poseurs out for the Saturday morning 'coffee ride.'

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"In San Diego we have riders crashing every day and on the Swami's ride which was a part of this stretch where Dave went down there are accidents very frequently and this is a road bike group ride. Road or TT it is all dangerous. "


Listen:

Dave didn't ask to be on a group ride. He purposely did not chose to participate in said group ride.
He got taken down, directly or indirectly by some stupid fuck who participated in that ride without having the proper skills or brains to give riders that he passed at significantly higher speed the proper room.

I read that you seem to blame Dave for being on that road at that time?

If so, you are the most stupid PhD candidate I have ever come across. By far. And I have seen a couple.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I don't know that it has been firmly established that ANYONE took the OP down. He is attempting to come up with the narrative from his memory of the accident, and it seems there are some gaps he needs to fill. Why not pull your claws back in and wait for more information before you make comments you MAY need to apologize for later?

  
Ah yes the elitists finally make a showing. If you're not good enough...sniff sniff... for the Swami's ride...sniff sniff...then you better know your place. And if you haven't ridden with us for years...sniff sniff... then you really don't belong... sniff sniff.[/reply]



Well, every other cliche' Slowtwitch out of the box response got used, figured it was time to pull that one out too....

---

Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

If you got that from reading my post, english language reading isn't your strongest suite (I'm staying in the ultra-elitist mode here)

---

Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

Glad to hear you're alive, and hopefully won't need surgery. It's a scary world out there.

If they are truly only in the aerobars when they are on the front (your words) than it seems pointless to be on a TT bike because the rest of time they have to be on the horns which doesn't make alot of sense due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of time will in fact be pack riding. My guess is that they are in aero more than just on the front. People don't ride a tt bike to simply sit on the horns for a over whelmingly majority of a ride. That basically compromises the advantage a TT bike gives a rider. I've seen too many rides to know that people are in the aerobars for more than just the front pacing.... Maybe it is different for the pro's when riding in a public group ride (you already said they only ride in aero on the front). So my point is, it doesnt seem to make alot of sense to ride a TT bike in a public group ride if your only going to use the aerobars when on the front. Lets say there is 15 people in a group ride, by what you say, each rider will only be riding in the aerobars 1/15th of the time (basically the pull that they are doing while in the paceline rotation, if we want to "average" it will probaly be less than 12-15% of the total ride where you state they are in the aero=being at the front). Which to my point, my guess is that people do in fact ride in the aerobars for more than just the front (and not counting when they get chewed off the back).

So my question is, why even ride a TT bike when your only going to be able to utilize the aerobars for a small portion of the group ride?

Are you referring the Wednesday ride on Camp Pendleton? the same ride where your group never obeys the rules, collides with an MP, gets groups kicked off of base and only because of a Facebook group and some insiders groveling to the base to get back on were you allowed back on? Yeh, a real good group of guys.

Not sure how you looked before, but you ain't too pretty now.

Hey, big time thoughts and prayers from NC. We all wish you the best. I can tell by your posts that you'll be back in saddle. Please let us know if we can help you. If you need encouragement pick up the phone and call, or send your # and I'll call you. At times like this we need to rally around our fallen brother....

Best wishes,

---

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

First time poster. This thread was emailed to me and after reading it, I am absolutly apaluled.

This forum is exactly the reason why I do not waste my time in these forums.

Did you guys not see the OPs picture? Here it is again for those who did not see it.
http://i.pgu.me/TDRdB--q_original.png

This pour guy is asking for help, PERIOD. If you are unable to help, or care to bash other people and their choice of bikes, or their choice of riding positions in certain situations, please do so in another post as they have no relevance in helping the OP figure out what happened. The OP was not asking for your opinion on any club, group or bike choice.

I personally know the founder of WCTC and I do not agree with the way his posting came across, BUT, I am sure he had the best of intentions and only meant to help. No he does not know I am posting this, nor will he ever know.

Dave, I hope you figure out what happened. Sadly as the rules states, it's not a matter of when, but where we will fall and this is the risk we take. I wish you a speedy recovery and hope you have no lasting injuries from this unfortunate situation.

"This forum is exactly the reason why I do not waste my time in these forums."

and yet?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I can't even count how many times I will be looking ahead at the road and all the sudden hit something and wonder where it came from because I didn't see anything coming. Combine that with the 4-6" rocks scattered across del dios and you could have some major problems. I have hit one at 35+mph with an instant front blow out at the front of the swami ride and luckily coasted to a stop without getting run over. I can only imagine what would happen if i hit one of those in the aerobars. Has the guy who "crashed into" the OP come forward with his account? Until then I agree that nobody really knows what happened.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Sadly as the rules states, it's not a matter of when, but where we will fall and this is the risk we take.

There are things you can do to greatly avoid the possibility of crashing.

Mojozenmaster's 4 not so obvious things that a person can do to avoid crashing:

#1: Never go for a long ride (especially a group ride) the morning/day after a heavy rainstorm: there's too much debris/mud/sand on the road and too many new potholes.

#2: Be very careful riding on roads where trees or buildings cast long, dark shadows in front of you, as the shadows might camouflage a hazard in front of you.

#3: Always get off of your aerobars and on your hoods when crossing an intersection or outlet road.

#4: When on your aerobars and you see a huge semi truck coming in the opposite direction, get on the hoods so you can control your bike. I’ve seen people get knocked on their asses by the wind turbulence that follows the truck.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Do you really believe all of what you typed? You really think that if there are 15 people in a group, they all take equal turns? IF you believe that, there's really no point for stageracer, or anyone else to explain this to you, you're never gonna get it. And just because your not in your aero bars, that doesn't mean there is no benefit to riding a TT bike.

A scary picture indeed, and there, but for the grace of whatever you believe in, is anyone of us.

Sometimes accidents just happen, and it's not the result of any ill will or reckless behavior.

I think the takeaways here for me are that we ought to be sticking together as a community and while that may involve some self policing from time to time to assume or defend guilt really shouldn't be of any concern in light of no factual information. And of course I'll continue to put off the purchase of a TT bike, I don't care if it costs me time, it's not like I make a living racing.

Beat of luck and a speedy recovery to you Dave. I know from first hand experince that spinal injuries ar scary as hell, but you can come back.

Yes I believe what I typed because of the law of numbers. Yes there will be people who pull more and people who pull less. It doesnt matter if there are not equal turns or what, because it will still "average" to the same percentage riding in the pack. So basically by the law of numbers, in a 15 man group ride, a rider will be in the pack for 94% of the ride (average). If you cant understand that, not sure you will ever get it. There will be some guys who average on the front 10-15% and then by numbers there has to be guys that spend 1-2% at the front.

So if your going to spend the majority of a ride (around 88-96%, ballparking) in the pack (stageracer already said they dont ride in the aerobars in the pack) what advantages are there to a TT bike over a road bike in the group ride setting? It seems the geometry of the TT bike is setup for you to be in the aero position not sitting on the horns.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Well there are many scenarios...

1) pro ride/riders - international pros, olympians, national champions, pull a lot at the front and everybody else holds on, they do not go in the pack much and if they do they might stay in the aero bars because they trust the fellow riders

2) people with one bike - Some people only have one bike and still want to do group rides

3) stupid people - some people don't have enough power to stay with the group in a road bike so their only way to not get dropped is to ride in the aerobars, that way they can tell all their coworkers how sweet they are by being able to stay with the front group on the group ride

speaking of statistics: 50% of people are below average in intelligence so in a ride of 60 people that means 30 of them are less intelligent than the other 30

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Okay, I guess you have little to no experience in either a road race, CAT 5 doesn't count, or in a group ride full of ex pro's, current pro's, world champs, etc. There is probably an average of 50 people on this ride. Of those 50 people there are probably 5 or 6 people that do the majority of the work. Now, if you think thats right, or wrong, or not a workout or whatever you want to think, thats your issue. But I can assure you that just sitting in is a rough day most weeks.

Now as to why would you ride a TT bike even if you're not in the aero bars? Well, its not about "advantage". Most road guys that ride a TT bike could care less about some aero advantage a TT bike will give them while out training. If they are riding their TT bike its either to simply get miles in on it, yes it matters even if you're not in the aero bars.

But the bottom line really comes down to this. Maybe you're just not that comfortable of a bike handler. And thats irrelevant here. But what I can assure you of is this. There are many people out there that are more then capable of riding a TT bike, in the aero bars if they want, in a group, in tight space. I can assure you I'd rather ride next to Horner at 40 in his aero bars then most other people I've seen ride a bike.

#5: If you care for your safety, never ride in a group larger than 5 riders. Make sure you know these people and know that they are of similar skill/ability. If it is a group ride larger than 5 where you are not sure who you are riding with........split....... Do a solo ride and enjoy your solitude instead of worrying about reading the minds of people who might make you crash.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

One other thing to add. Many of the people that show up on their TT bike ride a bit to get to the start of the ride. The ride itself is about 40ish miles, its not uncommon for someone to ride 20 miles one way to get to the start of the ride.

First off, where have I said it is an issue with only 5-6 guys working at the front? (If your mad that I brought up actual numbers for a 15 man ride, sorry, but you cant really argue numbers). Unless you want to argue that only the 5-6 guys at the front are the only ones in the TT bike and all the rest are sitting on the horns or on road bikes in the pack 100% of the time (but you already mention that there are guys riding in the aerobars). Just my own case study, I have been apart of 4 different tri club rides in 10 years and each of these 4 club rides included group rides where there were riders riding in the aero while in the paceline/pack.

Thank you for your explanation and you basically proved the point I was making (I just took a scientific roundabout way). That people are riding in the aerobars for more than just the front (not saying its right or wrong). I was bringing it up because the discussion was about "safety" that was being discussed earlier in this thread. I do think it is inherently unsafer for a 50 man group ride to have people riding in the aerobars in a close tight pack part of the ride. Even if we take our focus off just this one group ride example, (and talk general terms).

So I dont really think it matters what level of skill your riding skills are, is it more dangerous to ride in the Aerobars in the pack than if the entire ride was made of road bikes? Even if the entire 50 man pack is LANCE and his Pro friends, isnt it still more dangerous/unsafe to ride in the aerobars for the entire ride than to ride in a road bike? (I'm not saying its wrong to do that, just saying as a matter of which is safer).

That was basically the point by an earlier poster, and stageracer seemed to take offense to his comment.

I wasnt trying to say that what yall are doing on that super fast ride wrong, I was simply making the notion that riding in the aerobars occurs more than what he wanted to admit, which brought up the issue about safety vs a road bike group ride setting (I'm guessing it is inherently more dangerous to be in a 50 man peloton with 22 guys in the aerobars than in a 50 man peloton with all road bikes). That was all I was getting at, nothing more, nothing less.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Not directed at anyone particular here, but I rode with the swamis last winter for two weeks and since I only had my tri bike on that trip I checked out the swamis website to see what it says about aero bars. see below.


Aerobars are allowed on group rides BUT:

Only use the “aero” position when you're off the front (i.e. no one else is in front of you) or when you’re WAY behind the group (i.e. by yourself). Do not use the “aero” position when in the pack ever (i.e. Don't be the guy 5th in line tucked down low and tight on your "aero" bars)!!! We have seen it dozens of times where "that guy" is trying to roll in the pace line while being all "aero", and we have see it lots of times where "that guy" is either way sketch or in some cases that guy hits the deck, don't be that guy! Seriously stay off the "aero" bars and kindly keep your hands on the handle bars where the brakes are and you have maximum control, for yours and for everyone’s safety.

Also a guick point, that being in the draft in 5th or 10th position in the paceline going into your areo position isn't going to gain you much speed since you are already out of the majority of the wind by vitrue of being in the draft. What going aero will do is make you a lot less stable.

I tried to excuse myself from this part of the conversation but I couldn't resist.

<< So I dont really think it matters what level of skill your riding skills are, is it not more dangerous to ride in the Aerobars in the pack than if the entire ride was made of road bikes? Even if the entire 50 man pack is LANCE and his Pro friends, isnt it still more dangerous/unsafe to ride in the aerobars for the entire ride than to ride in a road bike? (I'm not saying its wrong to do that, just saying as a matter of which is safer).

in a lot of situations this would be true. But on this particular ride I would say it is the exception. In comparing the two rides, the Saturday Swami's ride and the Wednesday ride, there are more wrecks in a couple of weeks on the Saturday ride then there are in a whole year on the Wednesday ride. The skill level (not trying to be elitist) is so much higher on the Wednesday ride. How many weekend warriors have all morning off to do a ride on a Wednesday starting at 8:15am? Not many, most of the people on this ride are full time cyclists or full time triathlon pro's or at least close to it.
I stopped doing the Saturday ride back in 2003 because of the risk involved with that ride. But the Wednesday ride, while similar in difficulty, I have no problem doing from a safety standpoint.

Think of it this way, when the dust settles on this ride and it's broken down, the front group is usually about 5 - 8 riders and it turns into something akin to a team time trial.

PS. back to the real topic at hand, any updates on how Dave is doing today? That's all that really matters right now.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Now that right there is funny. Funnier than you realize or intended, I suspect! Repeat after me..."DOH!"

I think everyone was talking about roadie rides, we don't even want to get started with the tri club ride. I saw them riding in the aerobars in the middle of the highway(55mph) going against traffic weaving around the TNT people also running in the middle of the road against traffic.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

I guess we are making progress in sorting out UNCs crash details.

The word has spread and the holes are being filled in one by one thanks to riders out that day, thanks.


If you were in the pile up or know who was in the pile up please contact David however you can if you havent already.

Crahses happen and they are always upsetting.

KW

Mike,

I guess what I was arguing/asking, is that no matter what the skill level, will it be more dangerous to ride a group ride in a "team time trial" format where 90% of the guys in the whole of the pack are in the TT areobars at all times? I would think it will always be safer (hand position, body position on the bike) in a group setting for everyone to be on a road bike. I fully understand how awesome pro's have bike handling skills, and I am in no way saying that it is wrong for them to ride like that.

I wasnt trying to offend anyone or say that it is right/wrong, just bringing up what in fact is "safer".

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I think you just have to know who you are riding with. Like I said, to me the Wednesday ride is an exception and I have no problem with the people on that ride riding a TT bike or being in the bars. By the time the ride gets to the point where people other then the very front person is down in the bars, the group is smaller and the speed is pretty high and its more like a TTT workout at that point.
What I don't think you can do is make a blanket statement that will apply to every rider and every group ride across the board.

Earlier Matt alluded to the fact that a lot of people ride about 20 miles each way just to get to the ride as part of a reason why many are on TT bikes and why it is still useful to ride a TT bike in this group setting. I'll add to that, the last time I managed to finish with the front group, there were 7 of us, where we started with about 40. That means there were a lot of people strung out behind in smaller groups and riding solo. I know the times when I get dropped on this ride (which is often), if I am on my road bike, I basically sit up the rest of the ride. If I'm on my TT bike, I still make it a workout and I'm down in the bars hammering solo.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Unfortunate, best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Lest this be a reminder to all that its "The Coast Olympics" out on the road this time of year. Packs, TTT's and pacelines etc. can/will come out of nowhere, stare you down, then race by at any time (only to be caught at the next red light in most cases)!

[relpy]Spending night or two in hospital. Severe concussion, occipital skull fracture (CT just came back) chipped teeth, back injury, but alive.[/reply]
And posting on ST!

Seriously - many, many (((hugs))) and wishes for a fast recovery. I haven't read the thread, but I hope you get some info, and please keep us updated.

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Thanks for wishing me well, I feel pretty good at the moment, actually. Maybe because I was clear across the country from where the crash occurred and that makes me not-the-guy-who-crashed.

Several people expressed similar sentiments and I have to disagree with you. Accidents don't just happen. People take risks, make poor judgements and people get hurt. There may not have been any ill will or intention, but that means next to nothing. The responsible party needs to be found and exposed to help the original OP. This other person, by eyewitness accounts left the scene of the accident that they were involved in. Did they cause it? I don't know, but they did not hang around to talk to the police. With as serious injuries as this the police would likely do a lot to reconstruct what happened. Who was passing who, at what speeds and distances etc.

I know some nice people who caused a bad accident (in a car). It was not their intention and they felt bad, but they stayed to help, talk to the police, and they were held responsible. We should be encouraging this other rider to come forward to the OP/police and be questioned. We should be sticking together to help the OP, not someone who is hiding from the law.

Somebody sounds guilty.
I've come across WCTC on a few occasions and have been passed a little too close with no courtesy call that they were passing. Some gave a mean look as they passed. If you ask me it was only an amount of time until they hurt someone trying to display their dominance. WCTC needs to stop making counter accusations and start talking to their people. This post by WCTC looks a little shady.

WORD!

And no, Geg'n. I do not apologize to scumbags who make my life miserable and dangerously by "buzzing" around me if I am out on a structured training ride.
Abou time that those who use their weekend rides to "race in the TDF" get to know what goal oriented cyclists think of them.
When I was down in Southern California, I changed my weekend training rides to mid afternoon after the first weekend, just to not be around those public menaces.

...and I did a couple of Thursday night crits, with people who knew what they were doing and what they were getting into.

Heal up Dave! Next time ride mid afternoon.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I've read most of the posts on this thread and first I wish you a speedy recovery UNC_Tri_Guy.

I'm older and wiser, and I now refuse to participate in group rides. In the early 90's, and in my youth, I was on a European national triathlon team for 5 seasons. Which means that the years before and during I was averaging about 10,000 KM's on the bike every year, with many being group rides. Best shape and time of my life. Group rides in Europe in those days did not allow triathlon bikes, as only road bikes were allowed. The more experienced riders would yell at you if you ever rode dangeoursly, did not point out obstacles on the road, did not stick with the pace line, or did not take your turn up front. Even with all of that, I crashed into a brick on the road when in a group ride the guy in front failed to point it out to the rest of us while going fast down a hill at the end of a 200km ride day. Shattered some discs on my back and ended my competitive career. So even with all precautions and proper training it can happen.

Having grown up in European cycling, I am constantly blown away at the lack of etiquette on the group rides I see in the US. In fact, there is no etiquette, no paceline, no safety precautions, nothing. It's like no one has ever taken a moment to tell the riders the proper way to ride in a group. Or it's a cultural thing. It's like a hammerfest free for all chaos ride. I blame the bike clubs and triathlon clubs. I don't care how "elite" their members are, they all ride like crap in group rides, and the clubs don't institute any policies or training to make sure there is safety and etiquette. The should have things like training classes, pre ride talks, etc. Help them become better riders.

Anyway, I started racing in my early teens so I've crashed my bike plenty. If you ride enough miles, it's not if but when your'e going to crash.

Take care, and don't forget - triathlon and bike clubs have insurance to cover them for these types of events.

"Take care, and don't forget - triathlon and bike clubs have insurance to cover their asses for these types of events."

I took the liberty to fix that for you.

Other than that I couldn't agree more:
"Who are you ? The cycling police?"

Hilarious, those hicks!

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I'm older and wiser, and I now refuse to participate in group rides.

This new Mountain Bike thing might take off... ;)

-Jot

WORD!

#6 Even though it might be your favorite climb in the morning, never descend that mountain in the late afternoon when your ass might get taken out by an idiot towing a large boat or trailer.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Hope you have a healthy recovery.

With that said, I'm assuming that everyone here is a grown adult. It seems fairly simple that you are simplying looking for help to put together the pieces and understand what may have happened, as it appears you have no recollection of exactly what triggered or caused the accident. Hopefully you can somehow get in contact with the Paramedics, Orthopedic Surgeon and 911 Transcripts as mentioned in various posts in order to put names and statements together. Do you know if any reports or statements were taken by the paramedics or other(s)?

Not sure how this thread went from a request for help to a juvenile "he said she said" thread and debate about riding, but it's clear that a few individuals got their panties in a bunch do to the reference of the tri group/club.

Perhaps Slowman or Jordan can excercise judgement to put the bashing somewhere else or just remove it and get back to topic. Rather than trying to defend a position or determine who's bike is better, why not simply help as originally requested, if help can be provided.

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"There is no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness." Po "The Dragon Warrior", Kung-Fu Panda

Looks like you had absolutely nothing to offer except to rant about the people who were ranting. Obviously you got your panties all in a bunch.

A fast ride, with riders of variable skills drafting on TT bikes is a recipe for disaster. No club should promote this type of ride. If you want to promote group rides as a club, ask the riders to please show up on their road bikes. Riding most of the time on the bull horns of your TT bike is also absurd for various reasons.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

Sorry to hear about your wreck. Hope the possible surgery / healing goes well.

I've ridden this stretch a few times, but I usually hit it Sunday and after most groups are done (around 9 or 10). I guess I've always been lucky. After a few very close calls with car doors and debris, I decided to start riding North through Camp Pendleton. I've got an active duty ID so it's never been an issue getting on base. That said, I hope for a speedy recovery for the OP. Sucks to be out, but maybe you can sign up tomorrow for the Oly Tri next March.

I'm in TCSD but wasn't ever really able to make the group rides (and learn from the coaches/senior members) since they seem to be way South of me. Regarding the post I'm replying to, and others similar, is there a good guide on-line to common practices, etc, for signaling debris, etc? I've been riding sportbikes (Honda CBR 1000RR Repsol Edition is waiting on me at home right now) for over 27 years, so I know signals for motorcycles, but as I mentioned above, I'm new to road bikes. Raced BMX in school days, but doesn't apply. The rule, "Don't ride after rain," is also a good one for motorcycles too, especially in locals that get hard rain often (e.g. Colorado Springs). Intersections with large crossing markings are also very dangerous when the markings are newly applied (e.g. again Colorado Springs).

I've high-sided and low sided at decent speeds, so my thoughts are with you as you recover. Any get off is a bad get off. I guess when I get back from Afghanistan in a few months, I should learn from this thread and get some better safety gear. I've got a $600 high end Shoei for my sportbike, but my road bike helmet is a $20 import from K-mart. From my brief experiences last summer, I think I'm far more likely to go down on PCH (on my road bike), than draggin knees up Palomar Mountain on my Repsol. Just for giggles, I might wear my full leathers one day going down PCH just to make a silly point. :)

Take care.

Thanks for posting that. I am so glad that the riders did stop to help. It was hard for me to believe that any cyclist would hit someone and then just continue on riding and not assist the injured.

OMG, I am so sorry you are hurt but glad you will recover. Take care of yourself.

Rest up and heal quickly. All the best, man.

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Hans

Get well soon bro. Take it slow for a while and keep the same spirits you have had when first posting. think you will find the answers and hope that it all works it self out. I am glad we found out some people and I will USE the word PEOPLE stopped to help. My guess is they were a few types that HELP'ed non-cyclist, roadies and triathletes. Again get well and I hope a speedy recovery to you and get back to racing soon as you can.

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Wow. Crazy wreck. If this club is such a mix of pros, champs, etc why don't they step up, activate their ambassadorship to this community, and help this dude out. People seem to have forgotten that he has ruined ALL his gear. Even if he got cleared to train tomorrow, he has nothing to ride? Its pretty obvious from all their overly defensive post that they at least cut him off while bombing a hill in their aerobars. Seriously? Public relations 101... Fix the bridge or build a wall.

While I am in no way trying to be an "ambassador" for anyone. I hope that you're not referring to the swamis group ride. My guess is that you are talking about West Coast tri club. But, if you read back through it has already been discussed in detail that it was from all accounts no one's fault. I am not sure who is supposed to step up. Crashing is terrible, and I hope nothing but the best. But I don't see how its anyones responsiblity to cover his lost gear.

But, if you read back through it has already been discussed in detail that it was from all accounts no one's fault. Crashing is terrible, and I hope nothing but the best. But I don't see how its anyones responsiblity to cover his lost gear.

_______________________________

So has the person that hit the OP given his account (Hell, has he even been id'd)? Because even the Lady's (the woman that was behind the wreck) account suggested she didnt actually see the cause of the crash, just the 2-3 secs of aftermath. She had a "theory" but that means nothing in terms of determining fault in the accident. So unless everyone involved in the accident has given their accounts, not really sure you can say this was no one's fault.

If it turns out that the OP was the cause than I'd agree with your assessment, but if someone did in fact clip in from behind, than I would assume they take some responsiblity, right? I wish it were as easy as you say because if it were, than why is the person that hit the OP not identifying themselves? Seems they would have come up by now and said, "sorry man, and good luck with your injuries".

From Julie's account:

Unfortunately, I did not see anything
happen that I can attribute to the cause of the crash so I am sorry I can't
offer you any more information on that. One our way back to the coast, talking
to one of the other two riders that went down (who also didn't see anything
happen), we discussed possibly that you hit one of those little white reflectors
along the side of the road (but, again, I really don't know and this is my
opinion).
From my vantage point, all I saw was your body flying in the air and the two
other guys in front of me tumbling over you.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I understand your point. And I don't know what really happened there. I wasn't out there that day. I doubt we'll ever really know. I've had more then my fair share of head injuries, I've been out 3 times for over 6 minutes each time. And what I can tell you is that its basically impossible to reconstruct what happened yourself. If your out that hard, you really don't know what happened. But, i've ridden that section of road hundreds of times and what I can tell you is that it sucks that he crashed. But accidents are accidents and I tend to believe that if someone did clip him, then it wasn't intentional and they probably honestly don't know they did anything.

This may make you smile. Lavender room approved.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Hope you keep your positive spirits as you recover.

But accidents are accidents and I tend to believe that if someone did clip him, then it wasn't intentional and they probably honestly don't know they did anything.

____________________

Again I'm not trying to say it was intentional, I'm simply saying, if you hit someone in an accident be a man about it and atleast figure out what happened, communicate what happened. Why did it turn into a tri club wide search to figure out who hit the OP? BTW, according to the OP who talked wiht the paramedics, the guy who hit the OP did in fact know he hit him (in all crashes there is always someone at fault, thats how an accident happens, and it doenst mean they did it intentionally, just means they messed up). So that tells me something is at fault. And btw, even if they didnt do it intentional, doesnt mean they arent at fault. Even if the OP cant get anything out of it, it seems like the OP deserves to know why/how it happened.
From Page 2 of this thread:

Hi: spoke with FD/paramedic who treated me. According to him, the guy who clipped me declined treatment and bolted. He didn't leave any contact info for me or the paramedics.

I guess I'm kinda taken aback by the laissez faire "accidents happen" mindset especially in terms of all the details in this incident.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Dave,

I'm sorry you are having to go through all of this. Hey atleast you can watch your heels in somewhat comfort, get throttled on national tv this saturday in football (go pack!!!)! :)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I can’t take it anymore. I am 100% positive that if a fellow cyclist saw you go down that they would have stopped. Whether it be in a pace line or solo. I am also 100% sure that whatever happened out there that the other cyclist did not know that you went down.
Cycling is a dangerous sport. We all know that. So why is it that anytime someone goes down they have to blame someone? Dude, accidents happen and it is unfortunate that you experienced injuries, but this is the price of admission into a dangerous pastime. Again, there is no way that a group of riders would just keep motoring on if they know that someone crashed. Let it go…Stop whining!! Shit happens.

David, regardless of what you intended when you wrote the post, it's pretty clear that based on what you did write, multiple people have formed the opinion that one of their riders is at fault and that they then left you to die on the side of the road. Based on the actual info, the former isn't able to be determined, and the latter has been shown to be false.

So while I wish you the best in your long road to recovery, his response seems perfectly fair to me. He isn't trying to harass you, he is just trying to get you to clarify what you posted to clam down some of this madness.

David

You have handled this situation with nothing but class....of course I would expect nothing else from a Tarheel....GO HEELS!!!

Take care and heal well brother!!


PS: Garrett...really man...there aren't words...

Hopefully everything works out in the end and most importantly you have a full recovery.

I wasn't going to post, but I have to ask......

If this guy hit you and went down and was there when the paramedics got there, he had to be there for at least several minutes before riding off and from the story there were several people around the scene of the accident at some point of all of this happening. Did no one else get a good glimpse of who this persom was whether it be the group of people he was riding with, or anyone that saw the accident, or anyone that was present at the scene of the accident before he rode off that could give you a better description of who this person is? Bike, clothing, height, weight, even going as far as someone being able to describe him to a sketch artist? Not that knowing who he is might help in recovery of damages or anything, just would be a nice thing to figure out or to try to get the other side of the story..if that is even possible or the fact that this person would give an accurate description of what he remembers.

Best wishes and a speedy and full recovery.

David, if you were clipped by people on an organized club ride, then you should consider seeking legal advise to recover medical and short/long term care costs. Even if not organized, you should still be able to recover costs from the individual even if it is an accident.

I once had a guy's attorney call me to recover costs for damage to his bike from a crash we had on a road bike race. He knew a friend of mine and was able to identify me that way. It was a bike race on a rainy day and we crashed in a pack on a slippery curb. It just happen to be my bike that went into his. I left because we were racing. I paid. True story.

People get hurt in races all the time. I was in a crash in a triathlon a few years ago and broke several ribs. It was in a pack of riders going around a curve and some fool crashed into me and several others. He left me on the ground without even checking on me. I should have sought legal advise on that one as I incurred medical costs.

Do this and the responsible person will be outed by their club pretty quickly.

You get the point.

It looks more and more like the club in question is trying to deflect blame and get Dave to feel he is at fault. Hey if I am in a car and overtake someone and clip them in the side or rear who is at fault? Anyone ? Answer the overtaking group or person who clipped or rubbed him on the side is at fault in any court of law 100% of the time at fault. Seems the club is really protecting one of their "good Ole boy's" and has put him into hiding and is telling him to say nothing. That is now my take on it. I say to the club please stop the bullshit this is why you have insurance. I can guess you already emailed Dan and have asked this thread to be removed. Dan do not cowtail to them if you can

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

   
"I was on Del Dios going south past Lake Hodges (N. San Diego county) approx 9:30AM

Doozy bike accident this morning. I was riding solo after 50 miles into my ride with friends (we parted ways for different routes home) A string of cyclists (Tri bike setups) in a drafting paceline flew by me on the left. I think some guy clipped me...I flew over the bars. Out for 5 min (so I'm told) and woke to being strapped to a back board in the ambulance. Nobody left any info. All my gear is shot (timex Global Trainer, Rudy Rydons (ImpactX probably saved my left eye). Rudy Sterling helmet shot but saved my life. Bike (Litespeed Saber) is toast.

Spending night or two in hospital. Severe concussion, occipital skull fracture (CT just came back) chipped teeth, back injury, but alive."

**********

Dave,

I really am sorry you had this experience. That said, with regard to what REALLY happened out there, I am inclined to go with what you wrote in your original post, and will take you at your word. You THINK some guy clipped you.

Heal completely and quickly so you can return to action.

Agreed. If this was a car that sideswipped the rider, about 95% would be all over the driver. Saying catch him. Because it is a cyclyst many of you have warped your sense of justice.

Dave, I know you may not have the energy to pursue this, but talking to the police and encouraging them to investigate may be your best bet if you want people to cooperate fully.

Get better!

I haven't followed this thread for a couple of days so I'm just catching up and I'm blown away. I never got the impression that UNC (OP) ever blamed the club directly or one of it's members for what happened. It became obvious throughout this thread that the pieces to the story were coming together for OP and he was getting what he originally asked for- a reconstruction of what happened to him.

I am in disbelief at Garrett's behavior. It is in no way the OP's job to quiet anyone that may email you regarding something that may or may not have happened in this story. I don't know what happened here, but it sure as hell sounds like your club may have some serious issues with rider safety and just general sportsmanship on the road. There are several stories of people having problems with your group and if I were you I would address the problems now before something very serious happens to someone, similar or worse than what happened to OP.

I never read where the OP asked for the WCTC or any of it's members to pay for his gear. Someone else may have emailed on his behalf without his knowledge and made this request, but it isn't OP's responsibility or fault that this has happened. Frik, I'd say leave the guy in the body cast alone and pick on some other people for a while. In fact, I might suggest holding an open forum meeting in your area and invite any/all triathletes to attend to help clear the air yourself, Garrett. Don't make the guy healing from serious injuries do your job!

By the way, make sure your club has plenty of GL/Participant Acc/AD&D and also some D&O for your club. At the rate of people complaining about your club member's behavior I would highly recommend this.

San Diego can become a frighteningly small place.

You should get on the right side of this real quick, if I were you.

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Wow a threat veiled as advice!

We think the riders involved in the crash that possibly clipped him should get on the right side of this event.

Personally I think he should be contacting police and attorneys to seek legal action against triathlon clubs in SD. It will start to fix some of the issues quickly.

Wow, this needs to be preserved for posterity. Seriously? Um ... he is the victim, he is on the "right" side.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

You misunderstand.

My message was not directed at the the OP, it is directed at the group who participated in the crash.
And there is no threat, just my personal preference that those leaders and participants choose to step forward before that choice is made for them.

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Why do you keep saying this is no one's fault? There is very little hard evidence either way. Since we can't be sure what happened, we also can't be sure it was no one's fault. Please stop asserting some thing that is not necessarily true (for clarity, I have no idea what happened - at this point it seems no one really does).

And this Garrett fellow really seems like a weasel. Who would have the gall to email an injured fellow in the hospital so as to protect one's club - especially when there is no certainty that a club member is not at fault and given that the injured party has been clear that he is not certain who, if anyone, clipped him?

I say that no one is at fault because from everything that everyone has put forth, it appears to be an accident. I really doubt that anyone clipped him and forced him to go down. IF anyone did, they would have been outed by now. There are a tons of people that ride that stretch of road on the weekends, and someone would have pieced it together by now.

I don't think your original post accused anyone. I think there were just a few that started making assumptions and making accusations. Thanks for making it clear to those few. I hope you heal fast and completely.

That may be your experience, but I can offer a counter.

I hit a cat at 50mph on a screaming descent (verified on later post-mortem of Garmin data). Was out for 15 minutes and came to in the middle of the road surrounded by vehicles.

I remember every millisecond before and during the crash like it was slow motion. Seeing the cat dart from the brush. Thinking, "oh man, please make it in front of me cat". Feeling the thud and thinking "uh oh, I got him". Flying through the air and thinking "oh crap, this is going to hurt." Don't really remember the landing or that I decided to put my arms out to brace the fall and obvious collar bone fracture.

But I certainly remember the very rapid events that caused the crash and even flying through the air.

uncguy could definitely recall being bumped. I have no doubt of that.

I am not gonna get into a medical debate with you. But, I call BS. 15 minutes out? And you remember all of it? I highly doubt that.

But accidents are accidents and I tend to believe that if someone did clip him, then it wasn't intentional and they probably honestly don't know they did anything.

___________________________________

If this stretch of road is as crazy as it sounds from all accounts than for a cyclist to "clip" someone else and have no recollection of it or didnt know they clipped someone, that cyclist has no cycling awareness at all, and are a danger to everyone on the road.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

The guy riding behind me said it was about 15 minutes. Maybe it was 10, maybe 20. Don't know. I was out. And long enough to create a good traffic backup on a road that sees little traffic.

Remember seeing the cat, hitting the cat, flying through the air. Vividly. Not great memories. I love going downhill fast. Now I am unable to do it without scanning the side of the road and descending in fear. It sucks.

Here is what WCTC is posting on their facebook site. Shocking:

A woman came forward and cleared up the story
stating that the WCTC group had long passed David and David either struck a
rock or a road reflector and was pitched over the bars taking out a rider next
to him (the rider David thought clipped him) and also taking down 2 other riders
behind them. David was knocked out for alm...ost 10 minutes.

The person was not affiliated with WCTC. The David that crashed thought perhaps it was someone in the WCTC group that went by him. With the head trauma from his accident he had lost his memory. One of the last things he remembers was seeing a WCTC kit. The accident was not with any WCTC members nor did they have anything to do with it.

Now I'll admit that my reading comprehension is not that great, but this is not what the "woman who came forward" said. Now David is at fault according to WCTC. And how do we know that a WCTC member wasn't involved? This hasn't been established - only that WCTC is very interested in CYA. I'd really like to hear from the other riders who went down. Their silence and the actions of WCTC have done nothing but feed this fire - and suggest that they are hiding some kind of guilt/culpability.

Just from reading accounts of accidents and even my own accident, it seems it is usually normal for people to know exactly what happened up until actually hitting your head/face/brain/body. Lots of people have been able to piece exactly what happened to them, IE the accident/crash etc, but they cant piece together the "out" part. IE, they wake up 2 days later in a hospital bed or 10 mins later on teh side of the road and not even realize they were "out". They cant remember the "out" part of it (whether they flew 100 feet in the air, or did 2 backflips, etc), but countless people have been able to remember exactly the "accident", just not the affect from the accident.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Welcome to San Diego!!

wow, 7 pages full of ST-isms and nobody said the accident was due to the elevation of your seat?

impressive!

heal fast and continue to be a stand up person. i applaud your diplomacy during this whole event.

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Tim

yet the OP isn't able to confirm he was clipped, he just thought he was. If his memory was so vivid up to hitting the ground I would imagine he would of known exactly what happened.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Yep, the West bound Shoulder of Del Dios, tends to always have debris from vehicles and chunks of fallen rock that have skipped over or through the catch fence. Its a Fast section if you are in the drops or on a TT bike and making a decent effort (or greater). In a paceline on Roadbikes that section is near 50mph. If a paceline passed a single rider who couldn't hold his line because of debris, it would be pretty ugly indeed.

And I'm not saying I think this is what happened, I'm just saying that if you are familiar with that piece of road; you could see how things could go awry in a heartbeat.

quote MSUGUY:""yet the OP isn't able to confirm he was clipped, he just thought he was. If his memory was so vivid up to hitting the ground I would imagine he would of known exactly what happened. ""

Sometimes when things happen for the first time, your brain doesn't know how exactly to process the sensations that are occurring as you go down. So, I can understand that part being potentially confusing to the downed rider. Its like when you are on the mat being choked out for a second time and your breathing gets really snore like: oh yeah.......here we go again.

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

WOW, so he is saying David caused the accident with absolutely no substance to back it up?

Isn't there a contradiction here? Didn't the women who called 911 say 2 riders went down and they were behind him? Garrett is saying here that 3 riders went down, the one next to him AND the 2 behind him.

From her email: From my vantage point, all I saw was your body flying in the air and the two
other guys in front of me tumbling over you. Somehow I managed the avoid
everyone and got my cell out first to call 911. There was a group of about 5 of
us who stayed with you until the paramedics came, one who was an orthopedic


David, I really do hope you heal strong. You have done nothing wrong, your posts have been professional and unthreatening.

If I was present at an accident and I was that rider at the side of you, under no circumstances would I have left. I would have made sure you got my contact details and I would have rung the hospital to make sure you were ok. I think the majority of people on this forum would do the same as well. I hope that person isn't sleeping well, because they shouldn't be!

Garrett should hang his head in shame. The guy has serious potentially life changing injuries and you are worried about club image? Park that ego and search for some compassion.

WCTC,

Can you confidently state that no one from your group went down on Saturday? I would hope that you inquire with your members and reply.

As a Chapel Hillian, I pass along my hope for a speedy recovery to UNCTriGuy

Welcome to San Diego!!

Garrett continues to amaze. His bumbling efforts to protect his club have only served to ruin his credibility.

Anyone with class would simply say that 1. they are sorry to hear a fellow rider got hurt, 2. they do not condone dangerous riding, 3. they have done what they can to get to the bottom of this, 4. at this point they have not seen any evidence that a WCTC member was involved, 5. if new evidence comes forward they will consider it fairly.

I was on the fence about Garrett until I read the statement that he said, in so many words, there is absolutely no way that anyone in his club is responsible. I can understand maybe his powers of deductive reasoning could be limited, or ability to recognize fallacies of logic are not top notch.... but if you're not present at an event, and the best you have are a series of second hand accounts of an event that start with, "I'm not sure what happened, but..." then no. You can not make absolute statements like, "there is no way..." Maybe he is inexperienced, but making such statements in a fluid situation just sets you up to look really, really bad. In this case, he then backs it up with a thread in his FB that makes assumptions and jumps to conclusions.

That said, I clearly don't like this guy and what ever doubt I had before is now gone. Clearly in a CYA mode for reasons that would make most suspicious. He has no "dog in the hunt," if he's not responsible or his club isn't involved, and yet he persists. If people are hounding you Garrett, ignore them. By responding this way, you're just feeding the trolls and making anyone (like me) who might have given you the benefit of the doubt decide to lean back the other way.

I've been riding motorcycles for 29 years, and usually go down about every 5-6 years. Events can and do become clearer in some cases. The fact he remembers most of the events up to and including feeling a "shove", makes sense. I had a car accident where I thought something had fallen from my sun visor, and my nose bruised a few days later. Upon going back a day or two later to try and figure out what might have fallen (since I never keep anything on my visor), I realized what had happened is my head had whipped forward, hit the steering wheel, and returned to the normal upright position so fast (I was driving into the sun @50 mph, in a 55 zone, in the Colorado mountains and hit a disabled car that had left their rear 2-3 feet in the highway, and I never saw it) that my brain didn't realize that my head ever moved.

I've had similar when I highsided pretty hard off the bike and slid into a curb (hip pointer and contusions). What I do is go back to the scene, and then piece it together. I use it as a learning experience. What did I miss? In one case, I realized later the corner I'd taken every morning to work for about 4 years was off-camber (road slopes away, decreased traction).

So, when you get healthy, try going back to the scene. You can post up pics that say, "OK where's this cateye?" You were on the shoulder anyway, and I'm about 99.999% certain CAL TRANS doesn't put markers on the shoulders. They put them between lanes. I'm in Afghanistan right now so I can't verify this (and I've been here awhile so my memory might be wrong). The shoulders are usually just painted lines.

As you have indicated, the local community certainly knows what has occured, as evidenced through various postings. I'm sure those postings carry over to discussions in the community.

Like you, I am amazed that the other rider(s) who went down have not added to the facts or have not attempted to contact Dave to at least wish him well. Hopefully they have or will and we just have not heard about it. As a third party reading this it is interesting to see how people may read and interpret information, which they do not have first hand account or knowledge of. Personally I would like to see some goodwill, integrity and support from the community and for Dave to get some help as originally requested: "Can anyone tell me if they saw this to help fill-in the gaps..."

I recall a couple of years ago being passed by a motorcyclist who I thought was riding recklessly. Sure enough a few seconds later around a corner I was calling 911 for the same motorcyclist who was down in the road. About 3-4 individuals stopped to assist. I even tried to haul it down to a local fire station to see if I could get quicker response than waiting for the 911 dispatch. We all waited for paramedics to arrive in order to ensure the individual was in good hands.

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"There is no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness." Po "The Dragon Warrior", Kung-Fu Panda

As of 9/02/2010, there are ZERO cateyes/bott's dots on that section of Del Dios, except in the center of the road. There is only relatively new asphalt and white paint.

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Out of respect for the OP and his situation, I will keep this reply to the point.

A) A body cast is not the price of admission.
B) You should read the OP's posts specifically. He has been nothing short of saintly in such a state of injury, without accusation, and for you to give "stop whining" as your advice is completely classless at best.

As far as I understand from rereading the thread and the links, according to Julie it is fairly certain that none of Garrett's riders were involved. It is the two mystery riders that went down with Dave that are unaccounted for, at least to us at the third hand perspective, with small specifics in LJRider's post. While it would be nice to hear more from Julie, she certainly doesn't have an obligation to post here. Now, why Garrett can't even get Julie's account right in his own facebook posts, when he even pasted the email here, I can't tell you. . .Darwin Award in PR for sure.

I can’t take it anymore. I am 100% positive that if a fellow cyclist saw you go down that they would have stopped. Whether it be in a pace line or solo. I am also 100% sure that whatever happened out there that the other cyclist did not know that you went down.
Cycling is a dangerous sport. We all know that. So why is it that anytime someone goes down they have to blame someone? Dude, accidents happen and it is unfortunate that you experienced injuries, but this is the price of admission into a dangerous pastime. Again, there is no way that a group of riders would just keep motoring on if they know that someone crashed. Let it go…Stop whining!! Shit happens.

To be the biggest douchebag in this thread is quite an accomplishment, congratulations.

Replying to last thread here (not directly to you Sevans.

I think I have read every post on this thread. I hope that Dave has a speedy recovery and comes back faster and stronger than ever.

Did Julie notice what kind of kit / bike the other guy in the crash was wearing? According to some, it was "definitely" not a WCTC one.

Maybe the dude the ran into Dave is a casual rider and does not spend time on forums / facebook / group pages and has no idea what happened. Sounds like he was there when the paramedics arrived and he told them that he did not need assistance. If I put myself in this type of mindset, maybe this guy thought he did the right thing. He was there until help arrrived. The guy he crashed with was alive and being helped. He said goodbye to the paramedics and pedaled along on his merry way.
It's not like he wiped some guy out and then took off for Mexico and left his family behind (See Rappstar's accident thread).

Man is it ever hard to interpret what people mean when they type into a forum or an email. The key is communication and simplification. A revised WCTC message might look like this:

Team,

On Saturday there was a pretty serious accident on Del Dios/Lake Hodges. A guy named UNCTriGuy who is an active triathlete went down shortly after a paceline of guys/gals in our kits passed him. He is in pretty bad shape, but it looks like he will eventually be okay. Julie from the team saw the aftermath of the accident and called 911 for help. She is not quite sure what happened, but there may have also been 1 or 2 other riders involved. Dave was wearing xxx top, xxx shorts, a xxx helmet and riding a xxx bike. To the guys in the paceline that remember passing him, do any of you recall any detail of other riders that were in the same area? UNCTriGuy is trying to figure out what the heck happened. I find it really hard to believe that someone who was involved in an accident would just ride off, but it seems like this might have happened on Saturday.
Be safe out there and remember when you are hammering past other riders, give them a heads up that you are coming. Leave plenty of space if possible. Better to bomb down the hill at 40 and be safe than at 50 and come home via ambulance.
Happy Training

I was hit by a car while riding a bike at the age of 5 years old.

I can remember every second up to the blackness.

Brother was taking off on me on his bike and didn't want me to follow, as a 5 year old, I saw him leave our blind driveway and simply went after him - turned and saw a woman's face with a look of horror and then I remember being 7...

Don't call BS unless you've been there.

Since then, I have had plenty of concussions / head injuries / etc. and I can mostly remember the moments leading up to them vividly, it's the after that is blurry.

To the OP, this thread is getting far too crazy with a bunch of people going back and forth. Personally, I wish you all the best, hope your recovery is well and fast and that whoever bumped you, if they did, comes forth and this gets resolved.

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"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp

Dave - glad to hear you are well. I think if you'd offered your family the outcome you've got at the moment the ambulance arrived, they'd have taken it, however bad it seems. I've heard so many stories that have ended worse.

I'm still not clear on something. The samaritan that called 911 had no clear view - it was obscured by cyclists behind Dave who subsequently got caught up in it aswell, albeit with better outcomes than our man. So Dave is halfway there - we know now that no cyclist abandoned him until advised to do so by medics (good) but he still does not have closure on what happened (bad). Even if there was no coming together of cyclists, he does not know whether he made a mistake on his own, or whether his choice of line was restricted by someone passing too close, forcing him to hit an obstruction of some sort.

All we need is one of the 3 (?) guys who were very close to him to either say "sorry dude, you looked across to say hello and hit a stone" or "sorry dude, I passed too close and you had nowhere to go but to hit the stone" or "dude, you veered left to avoid a stone not realising I was coming past and there was contact" or whatever. Someone must know one of them - it's a story you'd tell in the pub afterwards, right? - and be able to get even an anonymous answer? Maybe Dave's suspicion (and I would be inclined to agree) is that if the other riders had alerted him to their presence and left sufficient room, he'd be training for IMAZ this week.

Dave,

Any update to your condition?

Hope all is well.