So this kind of ties in with the OP that someone clipped him and they went down.

So does either Bill or Julie have the identify of the other rider who flew through the air? Because it sounds like that is the douchebag who needs to step forward and take responsibility for his actions.

@AZTRIGUY

See example above. Told ya so...

This is the email that was sent to Dave from Julie.
Rather than people calling the other cyclist that went down with Dave a "douchebag" or any other names it is important to actually know the road we are all talking about. This road is by far one of the more dangerous stretches in San Diego and can easily have a couple thousand cyclist on it during the weekends. People ride fast and close. Dave unfortunately was seriously injured and really has no idea what happened. The reflectors that Julie mentions in the email can cause a rider to loose control very easily when you have trucks flying by and you are in excess of 35mph. As you will read from Julie's email all riders were instructed to leave the scene. With thousands of people on the road it is hard to know if the other rider will ever come forward, but at those speeds it is hard to know who is at fault or if blame should even be placed. In San Diego we have riders crashing every day and on the Swami's ride which was a part of this stretch where Dave went down there are accidents very frequently and this is a road bike group ride. Road or TT it is all dangerous.


"Hey Dave,
I am the woman who called 911 for you yesterday on Del Dios. I was riding
2-people back from you when you crashed. Unfortunately, I did not see anything
happen that I can attribute to the cause of the crash so I am sorry I can't
offer you any more information on that. One our way back to the coast, talking
to one of the other two riders that went down (who also didn't see anything
happen), we discussed possibly that you hit one of those little white reflectors
along the side of the road (but, again, I really don't know and this is my
opinion).
From my vantage point, all I saw was your body flying in the air and the two
other guys in front of me tumbling over you. Somehow I managed the avoid
everyone and got my cell out first to call 911. There was a group of about 5 of
us who stayed with you until the paramedics came, one who was an orthopedic
surgeon who attended to you, (stabilized your neck and wouldn't let you get up,
etc) until they arrived. The Cal Trans guy came up behind our group and put his
truck behind us with his flashers and stepped out onto the road in a reflective
vest to alert oncoming traffic. Immediately after the crash, you were
completely unconsious and laying in a slump on the side of the road. As we
waited for the ambulance to arrive, we kept trying to talk to you and you
started to gain some awareness, asking what happened and how your bike was, etc.
I did not notice your RoadID until about the time that the medics arrived and
my cell was on lock-down from having called 911, so I could not make that call
to your wife. Sorry I did not leave any contact information, while some of the
medics were working on you and talking to the other riders who stopped, I was
cleaning up debris from the bike lane.
I am really sorry that I don't have more information to offer you regarding what
caused the crash, but please know that there were about 5 of us who stayed with
you (2 of whom were riders that also went down) until the ambulance came and
loaded you up. After they arrived and started treating you, they told us they
would take care of you and your bike and that we should carry on.
I hope you heal fast.
Julie"

yes, this is a regular group ride, anywhere from 30 - 60 people in a group that included several world champions, national champions, Olympic medalists and even an Ironman champ or two mixed in.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Sounds like an horrific accident.

Really hope you get some clarity on the accident. It would have been a coincidence had you clipped a reflector and crashed at just the same moment that another rider came past. Its possible though.

Heal well !

Sorry to belabor the point, but you didn't answer my question - do they ride in the same close proximity as a regular group roadie ride? In my opinion, it doesn't matter if they are world champions, national champions, etc. - it is inherently unsafe to ride in your aerobars in the same close proximity as one would find in a group ride. No matter who is doing it.

Thanks Cougie!

I am actually feeling great now. But then I am clear across the country from where the accident occurred, and not even the dude who crashed...so...maybe you meant to respond to someone else?! And of course it IS possible that the OP clipped a reflector and crashed in front of another rider who then also went down. "Possible", I said.

I read through the whole thread so to try to get a sense of the whole picture. I think that the club in question acted properly. We may not know exactly what caused the crash, but from what I am seeing, it doesn't seem like it was this group or maybe even the cause of a rider clipping another.

However, as a fairly new rider myself, I do see kamikaze style riding on fast descents far too often. Sometimes these riders come way too close to other riders not in their group. Sometimes they pass on both sides, and you have no idea where they are coming from. When you have only one lane and people passing at high speed on both sides, it can get nasty. When I say high speed, I myself am going at 60-65K/hr, so those that are passing me are going a lot faster. As many have siad, that road has thousands of cyclists on it, so it might be a bit irresponsible to be going super fast on that road when there are lots of riders and the hazards that have been mentioned.

---

Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

well there is no hard and fast rule in this group. I would say generally no they aren't in the aero bars all the time in close proximity. Someone on the front or starting to fall off the rear (which is me usually) will be down in the aero bars but I think in the middle of the pack, no they aren't usually down in the aero bars. Once they get going, the pack is usually riding 28 - 32mph on the flats. But back to my original point, just because a group ride is made up of roadies, don't expect that they are never on a TT bike. Heck even Chris Horner shows up for this ride ocasionally on his TT bike.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Not to further hijack this thread in your 'belabored' point, let me speak for everyone on our Wed ride that if you're uncomfortable riding in a group situation where accomplished high-level racers who ride together every week for years on end ride in aerobars at the front of the field, then we're glad you recognize your abilities and stay in a ride you're more comfortable with. If you think that we sit in the middle of the pack in aerobars, then you really don't have any idea what is going on in the ride which Mike speaks of. Lots of big pulls from people who know what they're doing 'AT THE FRONT' and not really a ride for the novice or MOP rider.

Before you start calling people unsafe and make judgments on what's going on in a ride that you have no clue to, well.....let me just thank you again.

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

The OP said they “flew by me on the left.” I do not know this road, but I’ll bet it’s on a downhill section where you can really pick up some speed. Also, the road probably does not have a wide shoulder. If this is true, it would not take much (as in very minimal contact) for one rider in the pace-line to take out a rider they are passing downhill at 35MPH+ If the pace-line did not have at least an arms- length distance to pass the OP, they should not have passed until it was safe to do so. Seems to me it was the responsibility of the pace-line to show some self-control/prudence in their riding, since obviously (because of the noise of the headwind) the OP had no idea they were about to overtake him.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Mojo,

What is the basis of your assumption for the comment highlighted above?

You should read my posts in this thread before responding - I have reproduced the first one below, where I specifically stated that I have no problem with people riding in the aerobars if they are off the back, or at the front (& by that, I meant THE front rider). Anyone, whether it's Lance, Fabian, or anyone else, who rides in the aerobars in the middle of a closely-spaced group, is irresponsible and dangerous. Whether you are a novice, or an accomplished pro, when you are riding in the aerobars, you cannot reach the brakes or take evasive action as easily as you could on a road bike. This is cycling 101 - I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand. I never made any guesses about what actually occurs on your Wednesday ride - that was Mike's example. I merely stated common sense (perhaps not so common) safety issues.



-----------------------------

Unreasonable assumption. I have never seen or heard of roadies riding their TT bikes in a paceline. By definition, they have road bikes, and one would think they would ride those in group rides. Usually, when I see a tri-bike in a group ride, it is a triathlete who only owns that one bike, and many have the good sense to stay off the aerobars unless they are off the back, or perhaps at the front. Funny thing, I regularly do a ride around here with a local tri club, but most people are on road bikes, since it is a group ride. There are a few idiots, however, who insist on getting in the aerobars at inappropriate times. One guy who does that consistently still has his race number on the bike from last year's IM AZ!

its not too late to sign up, pre reg is still open http://www.fiestaisland.com/fiestatt/ttt

Yeah, I thought someone would bring up a team time trial situation. Obviously, much, much different than a public group ride.

Ah yes the elitists finally make a showing. If you're not good enough...sniff sniff... for the Swami's ride...sniff sniff...then you better know your place. And if you haven't ridden with us for years...sniff sniff... then you really don't belong... sniff sniff.

---

Live long and surf!

Just so I understand the dynamics of this epic super fast ride, for the pro's pro ride. So these guys are riding 80-90% of a ride (as part of the pack) on the bullhorns of a TT bike and only in the aerobar for the parts where they are pulling at the front or spit off the back? If that is the case why even ride a TT bike? Seems kinda silly to even ride in your TT bike if your only going to be in the aerobars when your pulling at the front. Even if it is say a 10-15 man group, the majority of your ride will be in the pack, and thus having to sit up in on the horns (according to what you say).

---

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

San Diego never struck me as the safest place for road/triathlon cycling. There are exceptions: a few spots in Carlsbad, Eastern SD County (Alpine/Boulevard/Ocotillo) Fiesta Island, Camp Pendleton.....

Most roads in San Diego 'proper' are too narrow, too heavily congested with automobile traffic and too heavily congested with poseurs out for the Saturday morning 'coffee ride.'

---

**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"In San Diego we have riders crashing every day and on the Swami's ride which was a part of this stretch where Dave went down there are accidents very frequently and this is a road bike group ride. Road or TT it is all dangerous. "


Listen:

Dave didn't ask to be on a group ride. He purposely did not chose to participate in said group ride.
He got taken down, directly or indirectly by some stupid fuck who participated in that ride without having the proper skills or brains to give riders that he passed at significantly higher speed the proper room.

I read that you seem to blame Dave for being on that road at that time?

If so, you are the most stupid PhD candidate I have ever come across. By far. And I have seen a couple.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I don't know that it has been firmly established that ANYONE took the OP down. He is attempting to come up with the narrative from his memory of the accident, and it seems there are some gaps he needs to fill. Why not pull your claws back in and wait for more information before you make comments you MAY need to apologize for later?

  
Ah yes the elitists finally make a showing. If you're not good enough...sniff sniff... for the Swami's ride...sniff sniff...then you better know your place. And if you haven't ridden with us for years...sniff sniff... then you really don't belong... sniff sniff.[/reply]



Well, every other cliche' Slowtwitch out of the box response got used, figured it was time to pull that one out too....

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

If you got that from reading my post, english language reading isn't your strongest suite (I'm staying in the ultra-elitist mode here)

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

Glad to hear you're alive, and hopefully won't need surgery. It's a scary world out there.

If they are truly only in the aerobars when they are on the front (your words) than it seems pointless to be on a TT bike because the rest of time they have to be on the horns which doesn't make alot of sense due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of time will in fact be pack riding. My guess is that they are in aero more than just on the front. People don't ride a tt bike to simply sit on the horns for a over whelmingly majority of a ride. That basically compromises the advantage a TT bike gives a rider. I've seen too many rides to know that people are in the aerobars for more than just the front pacing.... Maybe it is different for the pro's when riding in a public group ride (you already said they only ride in aero on the front). So my point is, it doesnt seem to make alot of sense to ride a TT bike in a public group ride if your only going to use the aerobars when on the front. Lets say there is 15 people in a group ride, by what you say, each rider will only be riding in the aerobars 1/15th of the time (basically the pull that they are doing while in the paceline rotation, if we want to "average" it will probaly be less than 12-15% of the total ride where you state they are in the aero=being at the front). Which to my point, my guess is that people do in fact ride in the aerobars for more than just the front (and not counting when they get chewed off the back).

So my question is, why even ride a TT bike when your only going to be able to utilize the aerobars for a small portion of the group ride?

Are you referring the Wednesday ride on Camp Pendleton? the same ride where your group never obeys the rules, collides with an MP, gets groups kicked off of base and only because of a Facebook group and some insiders groveling to the base to get back on were you allowed back on? Yeh, a real good group of guys.