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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [Stevie G] [ In reply to ]
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I was referring to
" Endurance is strictly limited by the availability of glycogen in the liver and working muscles. When these stores fall too low, your day is done. Endurance training greatly increases the body’s capacity for glycogen storage. But even the fittest triathlete cannot store enough glycogen to fuel an entire Ironman. Thankfully, training also greatly increases the capacity to burn fats, which allows the athlete to conserve glycogen, making it last longer."

My assumption is that most (very fit) age groupers hit that mark at 7 hours
Based on the the stream today Jordan Rap hit this mark at 7.5 hours
Dave may be hitting it even earlier, towards the end of the bike, and running on empty a.sucks but even then you have to learn how to run 8min miles on empty.

This is just my opinion. I'm no doctor, coach, ...

side note: There was a Mark Allen article on this very topic: The fact that this is bound to happen for even the most elite triathletes, and our body being limited to taking in 250-350 calories max per hour at this exertion is why we've probably seen the limit of how fast the body can travel the 140.6 miles. unless you figure out how to consume more nutrition to offset that glycogen depletion.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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But you ARE following this thread! :)

If he sticks with it he has a good chance. It may not look like it now, but there is potential. He's gonna figure it out. Just my opinion.

Cheers,

thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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thechromedome wrote:
But you ARE following this thread! :)

If he sticks with it he has a good chance. It may not look like it now, but there is potential. He's gonna figure it out. Just my opinion.

Cheers,

I don't disagree with that, but as I said this all very premature. I'm following this thread as David is sponsored by Zoot and I want too see what they are getting for the exposure,

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
I think they go hand in hand. But to me HR is an output and power an input.

I'm not saying you should blow past your hr numbers and go on like situation normal. But a lot influences your HR. This isn't to say you can't be successful off HR as many people do it (and to much faster times than me) that's just my thoughts.

I think one of the big value to heart rate is that it reflects everything going on in your body that is important to keep tabs on in an IM. Digestion affects heart rate, heat affects heart rate, power output affects heart rate. When you layer high power output, on top of digestion on top of heat, the heart rate climbs and it can hit the same heart rate at a much lower power. Some of the powermeter guys just ignore their body cues (or heart rate) and follow a prescribed power number and then they pay on the run.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [B Bartels] [ In reply to ]
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B Bartels wrote:
Raw Oyster wrote:
In my opinion he doesn't have what it takes to properly pace himself or endure an IM right now. (A) He has a long way to go in order to qualify. (B) I think part of it is in his head. (C) How many races has he quit this year? (D) He swims poorly (E), he clearly over-bikes to make up ground (F), and hasn't shown anyone he can pull off a run worthy of punching his ticket (G). I give him credit for taking the real route to Kona and hope he can pull it together, (I) but for what I've seen he certainly has work to do. (J) Hope he learns something from today (K) .


A. In his defense, I believe he proved in IM LP that he can endure an IM even with his current fitness, pacing and nutrtion. 99% certainly wouldn't be able to wing a 11hour IM in your first attempt.
B. The head game comes down to seeing that no individual split required to KQ is out of the ordinary. Meaning swimming at 1:05, biking at 5:05 and running a 3:30 all seem manageable on paper. He's more than capable of all of these. You just can't train for what happens at hour 7 of the race, you have to experience it.
C. Again in his defense, if his main goal was to KQ this year he has every reason to pull out of races. But he is missing out on a lot of experience. With today, he could technically race again very soon. If he would have walked it in at 12-13 hours that would have been off the table.
D. 1:09 is not great, and teethering on the edge of being a deal breaker. I would be more concerned that with a lack of swim base he is probably losing a lot of energy on the swim. if he swims 20K a week, he may only get down to 1:07 but would be a lot fresher.
E. He's not over biking, he is biking as fast as he can to put himself in an outside position to KQ. If he bikes 10 minutes slower, he'd have to run a 3:15. There's really no option for him to bike any slower. I don't think he has the fastest bike split or Swim + bike combo in his AG.
F. I think his fastest 70.3 runs, 13.1 races, 10Ks, and practice runs show's he can pull it off.
G. Me too...
I. true...
J. true...

A. Dave has proven he can complete an IM, nothing else
B. Dave has proven that he can throw down an ok swim, over bike to get attention or people interested an then blow up, walk/partially walk the marathon or now pull out.
C. He can't race soon, he wasn't recovered from IMLP (obviously), I am sure his coach is the best but why they let him race IMMT is beyond me, he just walked the marathon at IMLP?!
D. I wouldn't worry much about his swim since he has proven to over bike and blow up, and his run just aint there, guy needs time to build some durability.
E. He is overbiking, plain and simple.

Bottom line KQ in his age group is tough, he is so far from a KQ it aint funny, it takes years not months to get it right....
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Precisely. They work together to paint a bigger picture.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, almost 30K hits on a thread about a guy blowing up. Barely 3K view on the main thread with Rapp winning with an ST approved 4:25 bike split.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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See Paul Devashish's last post for what Zoot gets out of it. It's crazy to me too. AND Dave. The man has a following. What Zoot and Cervelo are doing with him is just smart marketing.

And FWIW there's a lot of those green shoes on folks here locally.

Cheers,

thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious, what % of people head into a race thinking they're going to qualify for Kona? Obviously many are unsuccessful and disappointed. This is just one example that we're all aware of and is very visible. I wish him well in his quest and applaud his openness.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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I hope Dave stays true to his goal of qualifying. If he takes a celebrity slot after being beat up in races for a while I'll be heart broken. I've seen so many try the desperate Kona double and nobody has ever done it, of the people I know.

My first race was Placid in 11:56 then went 9:58 in Penticton the next year. It was all about experience and seasoning. I've been to Kona twice now and every time I try to do it again it's rolling the dice. I don't think it's ever easy, and it's never a given. Tell Dave to come race in Muskoka in two weeks it will be fun racing with a legend.

Ken


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
If he sticks with it he has a good chance

Have you seen his swim times? WTF?

All that time and all the resources he throws and the sport and he swims a fucking 67?

He's stepping over quarters, dines and nickles to get 1 penny. 1 lousy penny.

67 min is on the very outside, the very edge of the outside edge of swimming fast enough to be in contention to KQ.

He doesn't KQ until he learns to swim better. Any takers on that bet?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
If he sticks with it he has a good chance

Have you seen his swim times? WTF?

All that time and all the resources he throws and the sport and he swims a fucking 67?

He's stepping over quarters, dines and nickles to get 1 penny. 1 lousy penny.

67 min is on the very outside, the very edge of the outside edge of swimming fast enough to be in contention to KQ.

He doesn't KQ until he learns to swim better. Any takers on that bet?

I'll take the bet. I'm a crappy swimmer but with a decent bike and run. As they say you can't win the race in the swim, but you can lose it.

Ken


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Well, obviously I have Brian. A 1:07 was good for him. Today. He can make up that gap on the bike. The run is the unknown of course at this time until he puts that part together.

I don't think beating down his swim like a fur seal holds any weight when at LP he more than made up for that on the bike, and at MT he was too. Did he over bike to do so? Probably. That's maybe lower hanging fruit dontcha think?

Cheers,

thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
If he sticks with it he has a good chance


Have you seen his swim times? WTF?

All that time and all the resources he throws and the sport and he swims a fucking 67?

He's stepping over quarters, dines and nickles to get 1 penny. 1 lousy penny.

67 min is on the very outside, the very edge of the outside edge of swimming fast enough to be in contention to KQ.

He doesn't KQ until he learns to swim better. Any takers on that bet?

While I agree with you, Sam Gyde swam a 65 (minus 3s) and finished first AG overall.

Sam needs to swim faster too. :)
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I don't totally disagree but for reference, 3rd place Male 40-44 (KQ) at Boulder had splits of: 1:27/4:49/3:26.

Formerly DrD
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
If he sticks with it he has a good chance

Have you seen his swim times? WTF?

All that time and all the resources he throws and the sport and he swims a fucking 67?

He's stepping over quarters, dines and nickles to get 1 penny. 1 lousy penny.

67 min is on the very outside, the very edge of the outside edge of swimming fast enough to be in contention to KQ.

He doesn't KQ until he learns to swim better. Any takers on that bet?[/quote
I agree. If I had to guess, his swim is not paying many divends on his bike/run as well. AGers forget the swim can suck the life out your overall performance.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
He can make up that gap on the bike. The run is the unknown of course at this time until he puts that part together.

I don't think beating down his swim like a fur seal holds any weight when at LP he more than made up for that on the bike, and at MT he was too. Did he over bike to do so? Probably. That's maybe lower hanging fruit dontcha think?

No I don't think that. I think he rides like an idiot. Why? Bc he's so far back out of the water to the spots he has no option. Then his run craters bc he's ridden well above what his triathlon training allows.

His swim kills the rest of his race bc he has to over ride to catch up. Look at it this way, if this were a boxing match he's so far behind after the first round it's almost impossible to come out ahead in round 10. He's thinking about round 2 not round 10 the minute the gun goes off.

That's about the worst way to race an IM

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [biglazybum] [ In reply to ]
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biglazybum wrote:
I'm curious, what % of people head into a race thinking they're going to qualify for Kona? Obviously many are unsuccessful and disappointed. This is just one example that we're all aware of and is very visible. I wish him well in his quest and applaud his openness.

My guess is that 1/3 of every age group enters a race with a hope of Kona. Let's take a 200 person age group,
  1. probably 70 think they have a chance
  2. After the swim it is still 70
  3. After bike loop 1, still 50 think they have a chance....maybe more
  4. After bike loop 2, probably 50 are mathematically in the "mix" even through physiologically they are shot and have no hope at that point, either because of actual capability, or bad pacing
  5. The reality is that by this point, maybe 20 have a shot at Kona
  6. After run loop 1 it is down to 15 people mathematically,
  7. However, physiologically, only 7-8 are left with enough in the tank.
  8. Now it is down to the top 2-5 depending on slot allocation.


Mirra to date is probably described in line 4!
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
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there area few people that are pointing out exceptions.

They are just that, exceptions. Now how many KQ's in the most competitive AG swam faster than 67? Almost every single one of them. Go look a the norms, not the exceptions. Reality is a bitch at times folks.

If you two want to believe in fairy tales, go ahead. They come true every once in a very, very great while.

On a side note, you may be a crappy swimmer with a decent B/R. Guess how many non crappy swimmers have a decent B/R as well? A lot.

Hoping for hope is hopeless

Brian Stover USAT LII
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Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 16, 15 16:35
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, cool. Thanks, Brian.

Cheers,

thechromedome
http://www.favoritefinishlines.blogspot.com
http://www.cupcakecartel.org
My 20% off code for 2018 FS Series races: tricred18
"there are no drafters in heaven" - C Bonner
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Disagree!
Sam Gyde was only 3 minutes faster on the swim and still one the AG race and finsihed 8th overall.
I think he still would have gotten a ticket to Kona if he would have swam 1:20, the swim is not important of you're a powerhouse on the bike and solid on the run.
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [thechromedome] [ In reply to ]
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Bruce,

I'm not trying to be a dick but he's missing the forest through the trees.

Never underestimate what the swim will take out of you...and the worse of a swimmer you are, the more it will take out.

There is a saying: Once a fish always a fish referring to people who swam competitively. A former competitive swimmer can swim 10k/wk for 8mo and swim 56 and expend less energy then a non swimmer swimming 700k/yr swimming a 65.

The 700k guy may swim a lot more but their swimming economy is really low. The former swimmer has excellent swimming economy.

It's all about the run, but if you're trashed before you get to mile 16 it's game over.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 16, 15 16:48
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Zenmaster28 wrote:
desert dude wrote:
Quote:
If he sticks with it he has a good chance


Have you seen his swim times? WTF?

All that time and all the resources he throws and the sport and he swims a fucking 67?

He's stepping over quarters, dines and nickles to get 1 penny. 1 lousy penny.

67 min is on the very outside, the very edge of the outside edge of swimming fast enough to be in contention to KQ.

He doesn't KQ until he learns to swim better. Any takers on that bet?


While I agree with you, Sam Gyde swam a 65 (minus 3s) and finished first AG overall.

Sam needs to swim faster too. :)

Actually if Sam swims 55 min instead of 65 min, then he will also bike with guys of his ability in the pro pack and ride 4:30 vs riding a solo 4:36. So Sam would end up being a 8:3x second pack pro. But the guy is over 40 years old, and works in IT and had a full professional load outside of sport. So yes, Sam could win 40-44 with a 1:30 swim with the same bike and run, but the reality is that aside from hard work, he has some pro level genetics/V02max.

I think what Desertdude was referring to is the usual FOP age group types who are several tiers below pro zone genetics. With a 67 min swim, it is harder to KQ than with a 57. Now we could debate that Mirra has pro level genetics.... earlier in this thread, I made the point that Mirra was out biking Gyde by 2 kph and was biking at the same speed as Rapp and Sanders and that he should slow down and at least ride the speed of Gyde!
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [lmar77] [ In reply to ]
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Your fairy tale awaits:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5660459#5660459

Now go through the result's of all IM's and find the number of times someone in the most competitive male divisions swim 67 and makes it to the show.

It's the exception, a minuscule amount, a super small number of people.

Do you really think swimming a 67, even with a strong B/R is going to get you to Kona more than 2-3% of the time?

If that's your idea of good odds so be it.

fwiw Sam swam a 64 not a 67.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Dave Mirra Takes on IMLP Today! Make That IMMT! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Why the hell are people just trying to shit on Mirra. Yeah, the dude has a schedule that allows him to train more than others. Yeah, he gets more exposure because he already had a huge following from his BMX days and people know the name. The dude is an athlete and works his ass off. Good on him if he pulled out of the race today. Why put yourself through a whole race if your sole reason was to KQ and it wasn't in the cards today? He might swim a 67, but that's not terrible for someone with no swim experience and a heavy cycling focus (see RAAM). So yeah, he's probably got to work on his swim and he probably will. Good for him for aiming for a KQ in his first and second IM attempts, even with a 67. That takes balls to put it on the line like that. He's wants to earn it rather than take a handout celebrity spot. I grew up a Mirra fan and I still am. The dude epitomizes hard work and brings exposure to the sport.

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