I think it's clear that Robert has an irrational hatred of automobiles and his agenda is to find them at fault -- no matter what the circumstances might be.

This reminds me of whenver you sign up for a race the disclaimer about how the course can have traffic on it and to follow traffic laws, etc.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

This discussion isn't about my accidents, even though you seem hell bent on making it about me. It's about what happened to this cyclist in a race. Try to stay focused on the facts, notsosuperPhil.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I think we've been through this specific case enough to see that the cyclist should have looked up the road, saw a vehicle slowing, and slowed down himself.

If the cyclist was not a cyclist and was instead a driver, what do you think they should have done?

So what is your stance on this issue?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Since we are talking about standard rules of the road here, clearly the cyclist carries most of the blame. Triathlons don't override standard road protocols.

I would add this... That biker was in a race. Race directors need to think long and hard about the degree to which they are going to control access to the bike course. If you don't have a closed course, then you don't have a race IMO. People can ride the course, but the race aspect is over. Why? Because there was no safe way to approach that car, or perhaps any car, without just slowing way down -- to a stop if necessary. The winners of the race could easily be folks that simply risk their lives for a faster time. If you have an open course, its pretty safe to assume that you aren't going to see just one car.

Requiring closed courses for every race? Congratulations, you've just killed the sport of triathlon. Do you have any suggestions for the name of this new swim/run sport that we're all going to do?

Normally, if you hit a car in front of you, you are at fault, unless a car comes flying by you and slams on its brakes, which I see all too often on roads around here. But, you need to clarify your question. If you are asking if the car had hit the cyclist in an auto race then I would blame the cyclist for being so stupid and inattentive as to cycle into their lane without giving the autos sufficient clearance.

I'd like to know a lot more about the facts here, including what signage was up warning drivers. Most races have huge posters and/or electronic billboards warning drivers. Such warnings should be sufficient for drivers to be especially careful and vigilant. Thus, my strong inclination is to find the driver negligent.

To the guy who thinks I don't like aggressive drivers in gas sucking land yachts spewing hydrocarbons into my breathing space, uh, I plead guilty as charged.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I just want to ask something. How many people have actually raced on a "closed" course?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Hello, Kettle . . . this is the Pot . . . . . .

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

Nonsense! You can close one side of a road quite easily. It's done all the time in many towns across America for running races, walks, bike races, and triathlons. What IS killing triathlon is the air and water quality of so many venues is terrible. How many lakes in Florida could be certified by the State Health Department as safe for swimming? Very few. And Florida isn't the dirtiest state by far. NJ has some of the worst air pollution in the country, particularly as you get close to NYC. Southern California air pollution has gotten better, but some days it's just awful there if you have asthma or chronic bronchitis. Cleveland? Pittsburgh? Chicago? NYC? All pretty bad, AQ-wise. And what about swimming in the Hudson River? LOL! I hope no one grows an extra head after the NYC/NJ Ironman....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

So I guess there is only one relevant question here.

Were the roads closed for this race, or not?

Tri California has a few. Alcatraz, Treasure Island, Pacific Grove, one common piece to this is that they cost more to enter.

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Brett Miller
Cydesdale Triathlon
M2 Revolution

Sometimes you have to stoop lower than your "enemy" (or opponent in an argument), or at least as low!

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

5 seconds is an eternity when it comes to the brain making calculations. Most football plays take under 8 seconds. U-Turn is out of the question since the car wouldn't have had enough room to make a U-Turn. I suppose now you're going to say he could have been making a 3 point turn, or like someone else, say he could have been turning 50 feet down the road.

I remember exactly what it is like to race, and also what it's like to have things happen in front of you. I've had a race official drive their golf cart out in front of me when I was going downhill 30+ mph. In the 5 seconds I had I was able to slow down, sit up, avoid him, and still have time to yell at him and give him the finger. You might think I just have quick reactions, but my wife, and anyone who's ever sparred me, would disagree. As she says, "You're soooo slooooooooow!" All while kicking me 15 times. :)

If you think the race director should be flogged than I think it's time for you to start racing indoors, I see an Endless Pool, a Bike Trainer, and a Dreadmill in your future.

Let me guess . . . when you practiced law, you represented plaintiffs, didn't you?

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

How did you reach the conclusion that whether the roads are closed is the only question at issue? You obviously have not read much of the thread.....

I'd love to hear from the cyclist and driver about all of this...and the race director.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Real estate....;) But, nice try.

The guy was racing, had an expectation that cars would be careful with all the signage, and this guy pulls right across him. At 25 mph in aerobars the kid is lucky to be alive. I go with the biker....Call me all the names in the book, but I think racers must be protected at all times if you aren't closing one side of the highway. Race director may have learned a lesson as well, but don't count on it.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Well, isnt it simple:

If the race isnt "closed", than traffic laws take affect. So if the cyclist "hit" the truck (which it obviously did), isnt he at fault? If the truck failed to signal correctly, he can be at fault as well, but I'm not sure that clears the cyclist does it?

Are we trying to make it harder than it actually is?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No, it isn't that simple because every road rule is subject to the conditions. You don't drive 60 mph through 3 feet of water, as some girl did here 10 days ago and died. Even if the speed limit is 60 mph. If you are on notice of a hazard you must slow to accomodate the hazard. Extra caution is mandatory in all states, I'm sure. Also, the driver is armed with a deadly weapon! We haven't discussed that wrinkle yet. ;)

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

So you dont ride your bike 25 mph toward the back of a car. As much as you want to fault the driver apparently, your own logic must be held to the cyclist.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

That explains a LOT.



In any court of law, you'd lose that argument. I think in the court of public opinion you'd not only lose, you'd be run out of town on a rail.


Nah. Unlike you, I won't engage in speculation, guess-work, and fiction-writing, nor will I stoop to ad hominem attacks, despite your inconsistencies.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

I do 3 - 4 Tris a year and I can think of only one since I started in 2007 that was closed to cars, that one being USAT AG Nationals. Most, if not all the others would not have happened if the road had to be closed to cars. The local governments wouldn't have allowed them.

So, at least here in New England, triathlons would mostly disappear if road closures were required.

Victor

You are the one claiming that the fact that a race was on, somehow changes the rules of the road.

The only way this would be the case would be if the roads were CLOSED. If the roads were not closed, then the rules of the road remain exactly the same as always and the responsibilities of both driver and cyclist are just as if there was no race on at all.

Can you elaborate on this a little? Should he be able to just put his head down and hammer away and expect that any obstacles would move out of his way 'or else'?

You know what happens when people ride that way? They get hit.