and here's my guess, the next one is going to be Zen meditation increases performance.

As you can see from the positive comments about CFE here, the ironic thing about this exercise program and debate is that the program will most likely be adopted in triathlon training programs, and by triathletes, just like triathlon absorbs every new training and technique fad, much like Total Immersion, Natural Running, Pose Method, Chi Running, Core Strength Training, and now Yoga. Yoga is hot right now. But so is core strength. And it seems like every year, its something else.

In five years, it may be Karate or Judo, helps triathlon endurance or performance, or, and here's my guess, the next one is going to be Zen meditation increases performance.

Only have a moment here today, but I'll try to make my point quickly and succinctly.

1. At this point in my life, its going to take something substantially more than: "if you've got the guts" to get my attention. I am happy to let someone "sit in" on a few of my workouts and see if they can hang, because I'm going to be doing the same workout regardless.

2. And really, if I were to take my time and come up there to cherry pic some CF event, that'd be a pretty lame-assed thing to do; like beating up a little kid or something. NO, I think the challenge (as stated by an earlier CF post-er) is pretty good "as is".

3. This is an OPEN INVITATION, any CF'r who wishes to come do this AG'rs weekly training program can just PM me. This is as transparent an offer as I can create. No hostility, I"ll be nice; I promise. Like I said, this is what I do week in and week out anyway....................

kool-aid

Also, what is considered to be the pinnacle of performance today (Allen, Macca, Armstrong) does not dictate the truth of tomorrow. We might all be surprised in 10 years and find out that CFE had it right.

//

Yes you put in the yardage but its all intervals. Maybe there is something to learn from that.

While a CF athlete might not be the best 10k runner they would not be that far behind a comparable 10k runner and then CRUSH the 10k runner at any task involving strength, speed, power, coordination (all aspects of fitness).[/quote] That actually doesn't really make any sense as you've written it -- "they would not be that far behind a comparable 10k runner." Isn't that the definition of a "comparable" 10k runner? Someone that you are not too far behind/ahead of? So if you take a 40min 10km runner who only runs and a 41min 10km runner who also does CF, it is somehow supposed to be impressive that the guy who does CF stuff is better at the other stuff?

Here's what I'd argue: take a CF athlete and a typical triathlete. Pick guys who could run a roughly equivalent time for a mile, so not too biased towards endurance training or short distance training. Have both guys do a basic CrossFit benchmark workout (usually like a 500m row, some pull-ups, push-ups, etc.). And ALSO have them go to the pool and swim 1/2mile, then bike 10miles, and then run 3miles (with rest between). Then compare the percentage difference between the CF guy and the triathlete on the CF test and on the swim, bike, and run portions. Because here's what I think. Being able to competently swim, bike, and run are just as relevant in terms of "all aspects of fitness" as being able to do pull-ups, push-ups, and deadlifts. And that's really the fundamental problem that I have with CF. It's this air of superiority, that somehow being "CrossFit" is what fitness is really about, rather than being able to complete events that are just as useful in day to day life. Late for work? It's nice to be able to run to catch a bus or a train. Want to save on gasoline? Ride your bike to work. Swimming? Well, I think people just ought to know how to swim. It's a valuable life skill. Look at how many deaths there are from downing every year and then let's compare that with the number of times being able to do a pull-up would save your life. There are equally as many applications for triathlon fitness as CF fitness.

What I think would be most interesting would be to have a "get from A to B" competition and compare triathletes and CF athletes there. A test that is neither specific to CF style fitness nor endurance style fitness, but a competition where you use the skills you've got in whatever manner you can. And then see how folks stack up.

In the meantime, I think that every CrossFit evangelist ought to be forced to read Jack Daniels, Arthur Lydiard, Ernest Maglischo, Tudor Bompa and spend a little time learning about Zatopek, Shorter, Gebreselassie, LeMond, Merckx, and many more before they start speaking about all of the lessons CrossFit can offer. There are plenty of people who train stupidly, but that's not because it's not known how to train for endurance events. It's because people are stupid.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

There is a reason that the Marine Corps.... are rushing to CF. It's not because its cool and trendy its because it works. Look at the list I just layed out...these are people that rely on fitness for their lives!! Some have posted that Marine PFT scores have gone down because of CF. First I would say that the PFT is a specialized event. Lower scores could mean the Marine grew in some other capacity that increased overall fitness...such as improved deadlift capabilty or faster sprint...two thing that I think are more significant to a combat bound Marine than sit ups.
Lastly, as stated I am not some elite athlete and I would wager that neither are most of you. If you could spend 1/3 of your time training and still get good if not better results at the amatuer level and spend more time with friends, family and other passions, why wouldnt you? Why wouldnt you at least look into it?

-Andre

Sorry for bringing up an old post
While a CF athlete might not be the best 10k runner they would not be that far behind a comparable 10k runner and then CRUSH the 10k runner at any task involving strength, speed, power, coordination (all aspects of fitness).

You realize that those athletes that you mention - Allen, Macca, Armstrong - span close to 20 years of top level athletic competition and that they basic tenets of how they train extend at least as far back as Emil Zatopek (1950s), who - maybe it's news to you - was actually one of the folks who brought the concept of interval training to endurance running a good 50+ years before CF even existed (at least as a marketed program). So if you want to say that in 10 years from now, we'll see that how elite athletes have been training for the past 60 or so years is incorrect, be my guest, especially when your argument is contradictory - maybe not Allen so much, but certainly Macca & Armstrong know the lessons of "interval training" (which is really just proper endurance training) well. And as for your swimming analogy, it's not "all intervals." There is plenty of over-distance work as well (400m swimmers definitely do plenty of 800+ continuous "intervals" within their training). And part of the reason that intervals are more relevant for swimming is that even a swim race is basically a continuous set of intervals ranging from ~25yds - 50m in length. I can guarantee you that if there was the equivalent of a flip-turn in cycling or running, training would change to adapt to that, and run and bike training would likely look more like swim training. The same thing would also likely happen if the longest event in either running or biking lasted <20min. Any good cycling or running program also incorporates a good deal of interval work - either structured or unstructured "fartlek" style. Do a little research on Zatopek. So it's not only arrogant - it's ignorant - to say that there is a something to be learned from looking at intervals in swimming, as if somehow nobody ever thought of applying that to biking or running.

Wow, I thought I kept my post as cordial and tame as possible. Some amazing responses here considering that I made no grand or outlandish claims.

First, no where did I imply that interval training is something new to endurance sports that was bestowed upon us by CF. And it may be news to you but the ancient Greeks were doing intervals for their distance runners thousands of years before Zatopek. Your accusation is in itself "arrogant" and "ignorant".
Second, I never claimed that the training of the past 60 years was incorrect...unless by that you were refering to my wild claim that there will be improvements in the future. Improvement does not mean everything prior was incorrect. Do you not believe there will be improvements, CF or otherwise?
Third, I dont agree with your comparison of a swim race to a series of intervals. A flip turn does not provide the adequate opportunity to rest between the next maximal effort. I'm not sure of your training but when I do intervals I take breaks longer than 5 seconds and I actually allow myself to breathe. And cycling would be a better comparison...sitting in the peloton waiting for a break or the next climb.
Fourth, admittedly my use of the word "comparable" is inadequate. A better example would be if you took a world class decathlete and stacked them up against a world class 10k runner, the decathlete would be closer to the runner, in terms of percentage, on the 10k run than the 10k runner would any decathlon event or any event that required speed, power, strenght....
Fifth, I 100% AGREE WITH YOU THAT ENDURANCE (and the ability to bike, swim and run well) ARE JUST AS AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF FITNESS AS ANYTHING ELSE...problem is do you or others here really believe that? That implies that strength, power and speed are just as important as endurance. If everyone here believed that then we wouldnt have this debate.

Also, CrossFit is ABSOLUTELY all about fitness that can be applied to every day life. "...strive to blur distinctions between "cardio" and strength training. NATURE HAS NO REGARD FOR THIS DISTINCTION.' ---CrossFit. Run for the bus or train? Unless you are running 10k in your work clothes to catch said bus I am guessing the CFer is going to out sprint the average triathlete to the bus stop. Where do some of you get the idea that there is no cardio development or even running in CF. Just because you are not doing "cardio" doesnt mean you are not developing your cardiovascular system. Plus, CF leads to a balance of skeletal strength which helps in everyday life. Swimming is a skill. I havent been in the pool for a while and would consider myself out of swimming shape but I still have the skill to not drown and even out swim someone that is in shape but a bad swmmer.
Sixth, with regard to your "get from a to b" type race it really depends on how you set it up. I would argue that if it called for equal parts endurance, strength, power, speed, coordination, agility then the CF would beat out the triathlete. If you would set it up otherwise then that only proves that you do not hold up those other capacities with the same regard as endurance.
Seveth, are you implying that I have to study all those greats to have an opinion that might have any value? Talk about an "air of superiority".
Eigth, may of you are right by saying that you need to specialize in a sport to be competitive in it. No where does CF argue otherwise and CFE is simply the attempt utilize the CF principles and help endurance athletes specialize in a different, they would argue, better/more efficient manner.
Finally, NO WHERE DID I SAY OR IMPLY THAT CF ENDURANCE WAS BETTER THAN WHAT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE DOES!!!!! IN FACT I AM NOT ENTIRELY CONVINCED MYSELF!! (seriously, some of you are a little defensive) CFE is an interesting concept that should be explored and tested before it is so willfully disregarded...what is wrong with that idea?

Laziness and time comes to mind here. Little easier on the schedule to knock out a 20 minute workout than do 2-4 hours of cardio, and you still feel like you did something, albeit not much. I tried the fad for several months to answer that question also. I still did cardio(30-40 MPW running) in addition to the base crossfit workout as if i did not i would get fat/slow. I was not impressed. I had far better results from the cross training program i had developed on my own. So much so that my PR for events like Fight Gone Bad were higher at the start than at the end (345 dropped to 320 iirc)

No reasonably fit Marine is struggling with Sit-ups. It's the Pull-ups and Run that kill their scores. Die hard cross fitters generally have the pull-ups down, which i promise is where the 40 Yr Old Marine improved his score from when he was young. It's the Aerobic event of a simple 3 mile run that kills them. Running a sub 18 minute 3 mile is not THAT hard with proper run training. While the basic PFT is no where near the end all indicator of fitness, it does show your aerobic fitness level.
As a Reconnaissance Marine, i've seen lots of training fads come and go. Thankfully crossfit has been on its way out since it spiked in popularity about a year ago.
Increasing your max deadlift doesn't help a team of Recon Operators make long range movements through the mountains with heavy packs where your heart is averaging 145 BPM for 4 hours and spiking in the 180's on hills. Funny enough, endurance training on a bike, running, swimming, and hiking with the pack itself does help this effort. Cross training with weights, gymnastics and plyometrics has it's role to help sustain core and other strengths, but cardiovascular endurance should be the bulk(70% or more) of the training.
There is not one crossfitting Marine in my unit i have not dropped on a ruck run by a large amount. Coincidently, my 3 mile is many minutes faster also. My aerobic capacity and muscular endurance is significantly higher as a result of better training.

Crossfitting makes you good at crossfit.

Andre, Crossfit is not a bad program. I am all about a program that the masses get excited about and follow. 99% of the population is going to see good results using crossfit as their base workout. The athletes here are focused on going long. No one here gives a shit about how fast they can complete helen. We are interested in completing Ironmans, Half's and Oly's as fast as we can.
To most here the satisfaction of setting a new PR riding our bikes up a 5000 Ft climb and gazing out over the mountains we just conquered is more satisfying than adding 10 pounds to a deadlift in a stuffy Gym where folks can't stop admiring themselves in the mirror.

You almost lost me after you implication that Marines are lazy...after noticing that you served I'll give you a pass :) I have actually read studies that a crossfit-like program actually better prepares soldiers for the riggors of modern combat than does an XX mile hump. I am sure you are aware better than I the injuries associated with these heavy humps. I am guessing these are the reasons that the Marines, SEALs, LEO, fire fighter and MMA fighters use CF.

Imagine a triathlete taking their current program and greatly reducing the LSD and increasing the interval training and incorperating complex, anerobic, multi joint strenght training..[/quote] So, to paraphrase, "imagine someone training the way pretty much every elite endurance athlete trains?" Wow. What a concept...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

So, you are in fact implying we have reached our capacity to understand training and there is no room for improvement? Interesting.