Until one of his tatted up sideshow athletes starts winning pro races, I'm going to remain sceptical, but he does have a few good points:

"You are quad dominant, and your hips don�t work for Christ's sake. Learn to move correctl" -Man that used to be me, I'm working on getting my hips correct and it's helped improve my overall fitness A TON.

"I�d also like to throw in that none of them look at their particular sport as a skill, and because of this they will never do what they love for a long time. PERIOD!" -This is also very true, if you get obsessed with results you aren't going to do well at triathlon, but if you look at it as a skill you need to master, all of a sudden you don't mind putting in a long time learning the nuances of proper training and racing.

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

So, I too could be racing 11:33 IMs if I trained the CrossFit way?

Junk.

Young. Proud of his accomplishments. Cocky.

But not able to see the forest for the trees. And not more than a passing understanding of real sports science.

11:33? And he thinks that equates to having the requisite understanding of what it takes to go sub-8 in an IM?

I like the crossfit concept as a general way for the majority of people to approach being fit. It really works toward total body fitness. But it should NOT be considered essential to success in triathlon or any other sport.

There is nothing new or worth paying attention to there.

With absolutely no research to back me up, I strongly believe that CFE (Cross Fit Endurance) can take a low to mid level athlete and make them better (faster, etc.) but to get to high levels..... I don't think it is there. There is too much evidence that points to miles and miles (or yards and yards for swimmers) to take it to the next level.
Does that mean that we know everything there is to know about endurance training.... no so we can still learn but I have yet to see evidence of that type of trainig (relatively short and high intensity) taking an athlete up to "world class" performance.

This story made my morning when I read it. I laughed my ass off. This is one of the many myths that is started by the crossfit crowd that it is the dominant form of training and anyone who is not doing it doesn't know what they are doing. I am sure his nutrition plan that he puts all his athletes on is the Zone diet which is what is pushed by crossfit. It might help him to go read some legitimate published studies and go get an understanding of bioenergetics rather than his blog/ancetotal evidence that he claims is superior. I firmly believe crossfit is a great fitness program for a lot of people who just want to get into great shape it is by no means a superior method of endurance training or other type of training for that matter.

I agree with those comments. I think that CrossFit is a great way to approach fitness, but not endurance sports or triathlon. Spending 20min a day tossing around kettleballs will not make you run or swim faster.

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-- Aaron Davidson

Marketing BS, that's all. A good way to get/stay in shape but he needs to know his limits when venturing out of his lane.

Cross fit ain't going to keep you in the saddle for 6 hours.

http://www.crossfitendurance.com/ - Love the picture of them running in the rain with 45lb plates over their heads.

An interesting read. Some potentailly valid points.

I always note that these cutting edge fitness, diet and training "trends" always seem to start in places where a lot there are a lot of wealthy people. I note that his studio is in Newport Beach, CA - a zip code with some of the richest and wealthiest people in the U.S.( well, up until the recent real-estate/stock-market slump).

How come these cutting edge training trends never start where the top athletes are - Eldoret, Kenya; Trondheim, Norway; Flagstaff, AZ. . . .? Just wondering.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Gotta love California marketing. They're trying to go against proven methods, and I guess that's one way to be innovative, but no one doing CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance (caveat: unless they're ex pro level athlete in an endurance sport competing in my age group *cry like a little biatch*) is going to place top 3 overall at any race. If you want to be overall fit, cool, do CF+CFE. If you want to be competitive at endurance sports you need the specificity. Crossfit Orangeville has some competitive MTB athletes but I guarantee you they're not only doing what's on crossfit.com and crossfitendurance.com These one size fits all plans fit only a small portion of the population and we all know that.

First hand looking at the Marine Corps, which has gotten into crossfit in a big way and has helped boost this crossfit culture, certain Marines will still be fat and slow even if they crossfit. Only crossfitting doesn't get you an 18min 3mi unless you're genetically gifted, and the new combat fitness test is a joke as well. A Master Gunnery Sergeant who's been in the Marines for over 20 years once told me, "Yea, everyone's all into this crossfit shit with the short workouts and intensity, and you know what? Marines are still going to be fat, we'll just think we're cool"

To echo what others have said, I think it's important to weight train but for people looking to combine weight training and endurance, I'd point them towards Mark Twight (of Gym Jones fame) or Rob Shaul (www.mtnathlete.com or www.militaryathlete.com ). The cult of crossfit is getting out of hand, but I do appreciate what they're doing in a way, trying to bring fitness and nutritional insight to the masses. It works......for the masses.

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The other interesting point about this is that like virtually every other cutting edge, diet and training trend they emphasize lower training time. It is the 7-minute ab routine for endurance athletes. People who think training 15-20hours a week is hard are going to love the idea that they can get results in 9 hours a week.
I think Crossfit has some good ideas but I think they have jumped the shark on this one.

You can't get an ab workout in 6 minutes... This guy's posted IM time is not bad, but I don't think its good enough to qualify for Kona. I wonder what Kona qualifiers would say about his workout plan.

he needs to go faster than 11:33 to prove his point.

he needs to go sub 10 at least

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

That is a really good point. If they only had boxes to jump up in in Kenya I guess the marathon record would be sub 2 ;-)

Guy seems like he is very fit generally. Looking good with your shirt off and going fast at IM is not the same thing. When I walk around at the practice swims in LP each year I am always amazed at how many totally ripped people there are. Even more amazed a couple days later when so few of them are faster than some kinda fat guys like me...

crossfit would make a better point if they said "by using methods like ours you can be a mediocre triathlete AND really buff and strong"

which, is a valid point

or you could just rock climb a lot

chicks are rock gyms are hot

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

"by using methods like ours you can be a mediocre triathlete AND really buff and strong"

I think a better marketing strategy would be: "Our methods will make you look really fast."

which to be honest is more important than actually being fast to many people doing triathlons.

MacKenzie, Brian 12/17/40 29/M25-29 00:57:59 05:31:55 04:57:34 11:33:47

i died laughing when i saw his 5 hour IM run time- 11:20min/mile

crossfit fails. obviously he has talent with a 58 swim and a 5 30 bike. but his "training" is a load of crap made evident by his run time.

I've been in the hockey scene for a while and crossfit has recently tried to tap into that market as well. Ultimately, whether they realize it or not, its a glorified method of work capacity training. You just can't (effectively) mix olympic lifting with energetics. These must be trained separately to obtain maximum gains in aerobic conditioning and power + rate of force development.

Now back to triathlon training. It may not be a bad choice for off season conditioning...if you're into this kinda thing...as long as you realize its limitations and address those variables that it fails to address....regardless, time still must be spent on the roads and in the pool....(or for others, on the computrainer...right Fleck and Dev?)

Hmm...it may also be effective as a training stimulus to "mix things up" within a particular micro/mesocycle...

But ultimately, it failed the ST "sniff test".

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JC
Twitter: http://twitter.com/jeffcubos
Website: http://www.jeffcubos.com

yeah i mean, my half IM time predicts an IM time about the same as his (of course who can reall predict that I might stop by the side of the road and cry instead)

and that was with no bike training

and im not an endurance talent

this guy shouldn't even be writing articles about endurance yet, heh

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I speak from 3 years of CrossFit experience. Yes, it has got me in great general fitness. I'm in better over all shape now than I was in High School almost 20 years ago as an athlete. I can do a lot of physical activities well. But I'm not great at anything. That's what CrossFit is all about, GPP (General Physical Preparedness). Perfect by itself for police, fire fighters, soldiers or non-specialist athletic people.

What Brian is doing is taking the Crossfit model and including specific training for swim, bike, run on top of that. It will help the majority of people who do triathlons. I predict it wont make a professional marathon or triathlon specialist better by taking them out of their specialized training. Although I think specialist could benefit from adding some CrossFit to increase strength and expose weaknesses.

The majority of people use triathlons as a form of fitness, they don't race professionally. So the majority of "triathletes" could gain a lot from following Brian's lead, rather than following the LSD model. The same way all the people you see in the gym emulate the routines they read in muscle mags, because that's what the pro bodybuilders do. That is not the best way to become fit. Those who a racing professionally may already be using some forms of weight training which are similar to CrossFit. If they're not, they should be.

Specialist need to specialize, but most of us aren't.

So, you want to do your first endurance event (anything over 2 hrs)? I know, you�re thinking where to begin? I mean, if you want to run 26.2 miles or swim, bike and run 140.6 miles or run an ultra marathon (anything over 50 miles), you�ve got to put in the hours, right? I mean at least 14-30 hrs per week to be really ready and to do your best, right? Wrong.
How about getting your deadlift up to 460. Instead of your �Sunday run� of 2 hours, you work on getting your back squat up to 350? Sounds insane doesn�t it? Not when you find out that the guys doing just this kind of work are averaging less than 9 hours per week of training and are finishing 100 mile runs only a handful of hours behind such endurance legends like Dean Karnazes.

BLATANT AD - I hereby announce a revolutionary new fitness training program, called Murph-Fit.
In under 7 hrs a week, you too can set a 4:09 HIM PB, and then follow it up a few weeks later with 4th OA at ultra-distance American Zofingen duathlon.
Back in '06, ML finished Kona just a handful of hours behind endurance legends such as Macca, Normann, and Dev Paul. ;-)

What�s even more shocking is that Brian has only been in this endurance game for about 6 years!

Piker! ML has only been seriously training for tri for 5 seasons. Beat that, CF dude!!! ;-)


I guess all I need now is a high $ zip code, a website, and some rental gym space, and I can start printing $.

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float , hammer , and jog

I think the tattoo ink is leaching into his CSF..............

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Actually if some of you guys had reading comprehension skills you would have noticed a few points he made specific to getting faster in triathlons.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

yeah but we are skeptical of his points given that after 6 years in the game he is slower than many Fred's here.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

So being faster means that the good points he made would carry more weight?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Some evidence that his points work would be good yeah.

If he were faster that would at least be *some* evidence.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

sigh.

For evidence you should probably check some of your own training.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

evidence of what?
heavy squats being able to replace putting in the hours?

its not even clear what LSD means to this guy. for some people that means 50 hours a week, to others its means 20

for me, about 7 hours a week of training got me as fast as this guy, without the weights/crossfit, so I don't think they are necessary key to going mediocre speeds in triathlon.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Because results and "cutting edge trends" are mutually exclusive.

I owe you a note on some CAN magazine thoughts.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Again, I said there were some valid points in his article, not that his article was valid.


I guarantee some of the points he said you do in your training.

If anything your 7hr point validates a few of his points.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I have been following the Crossfit (main site) workouts failrly consistently for about a year and a half. Overall fitness (overall strength, etc) is probably not far from where I was when I wrestled (accounting for age). Crossfit Endurance (CFE) came along about a year ago so I was watching it closely but not following it. I don't know that I could find anyplace on the main Crossfit site that actually claims that their method will take an average athlete and make them "pro". It seems to be pervasive on the Crossfit Endurance sight though. Because of this, I almost never go to the CFE website. Another peripheral thing that irritates me about that site is the over abundance of the use of the F-bomb by Brian in nearly every video.
I really believe that Crossfit (main site) is a superb off-season training for most athletic endeavours. If the in-season schedule can handle it, it could probably be used then also. It will never replace "specificity", specially if you want to be at all proficient.
Bottom Line from my rant: Don't lump CFE in with the Crossfit main site. I think they are very different from each other.

Sure, there is a bit in there about intensity. I'm on board there.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

He makes some valid points but he definitely crosses the line when he says he has a thing or two to teach Macca! I also like his comment about how there is no proof that large amounts of lower-intensity volume lead to better endurance performance. Has he ever of heard of a guy named Lance Armstrong? Maybe Lance should give this guy a call so he can learn how to train properly.

Based on my 1/2 IM times even I can crush this guy in an IM and I do zero weight training. Then again I don't have all that tatoo ink weighing me down.

So being faster means that the good points he made would carry more weight?

Brian,

I think what he means is that many in the tri community are under the mistaken impression that just because you went fast, that you know what you are talking about and/or you are a great coach. That seems to be the only credentials people care about. So the reverse of this would be true in this case. This dude only went 11:30, so what on earth would he know about coaching/advising triathletes. He may actually know a lot!! Not that I am agreeing with his philosophy at all - just presenting a realistic opposing view.

I always find it funny because when I came of age as a runner in my teens, I was coached by the guy who many considered the absolute best distance running coach in Canada - he was a fat, old guy who could barely jog around the block!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

if your running coach held up his 6 hour marathon as an example of his coaching systems prowess, wouldn't think him silly?

Either you use your new ideas to make yourself fast, or someone else fast. Until you do that, you shouldn't be claiming your new ideas are awesome.

This guy does refer to people he trains that got faster using his techniques, but there is no real reference, we don't know who these people are and how much faster they got or event WHAT they got faster at.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

"I think what he means is that many in the tri community are under the mistaken impression that just because you went fast, that you know what you are talking about and/or you are a great coach."

True. Look at Bowerman.

On a side note, this thread is now a link on the http://www.crossfitendurance.com website, and in the comments section for today there's even rebuttals to comments posted on here, gotta love it.

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Yeah, that guy has, iirc, posted here before I think.
Or someone with a similar ironman time did. Blew up on the run and blamed his stomach.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Or Arthur Lydiard, or Peter Snell, or Phil Maffetone, or Mark Allen, or Mike Pigg ...

I know it's very, very hard for many people to wrap their heads around, but being fast isn't a prerequisite to being a good coach. If so there might be 3 good coaches out there.

Who said 11:XX wasn't fast for him. What if he was a 15:00 IMer prior. What if that guy was a 8hr marathoner?

Maybe it would be helpful for us if you defined what fast is, so we can define what good coaching is.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

"Piker! ML has only been seriously training for tri for 5 seasons."

Wait, you started seriously training? We are all in trouble now.

He makes some valid points but he definitely crosses the line when he says he has a thing or two to teach Macca!

Crossfit has been pushed on my unit (1st Recon Battalion) very heavily in the past 2 years.
I think it is garbage.
PFT scores have dropped significantly, primarily on the run.
Also ruck running ability has dropped among the cross fit crowd, again due to the lack of getting out and doing long duration cardio.
In 06 before it really took hold there were probably 6-7 guys per 20 man platoon who ran under 18 minutes on the 3 mile, everyone was under 21:00 unless they had some kind of injury. I'd say more than 80% finished in under 20:00

Last time we ran a PFT only 2 people in the entire company ran under an 18 and scored a 300, myself (16:40) and a high 17 minute. Several people were in the 22-23 region. That would have been completely unacceptable in 2006...
The crossfit turds really think their method will help people in my occupations job performance. The numbers and events i see first had seem to prove the opposite.
If you do crossfit workouts as a side workout, just in addition to your normal training i think it can be good for some core and general strength maintanance.
20 minutes a day isnt going to help you carry a ruck for 3 hours over mountains. Nor will it help you in a 2-5 or 10 hour event.

It's also being pushed at BRTC now, some of the stories I've heard out of the "new" BRC have been horror stories. Crossfit for PT, no ruck runs, individual effort? Where's the test of mental and physical stamina we require from our 0321's.....*sigh*

I feel your pain brother, I feel your pain, it's the same on the east coast with 2D.

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I should try crossfit...that's one more chance for me to get injured :P

That said, even though I think his article is off base for most, there are indeed some valid points, and Macca, having won multiple Ironman races, Kona included, could possibly learn a thing or two indeed.

While that's true, this guy is the one hoisting himself up as the ultimate example of how endurance athletes should train.

The funny thing, I think, is that Macca DOES hit the weights, and, by my observation, has put on a little more muscle in the last few years. He's not exactly a stringbean athlete.

Fully agree with you.

Some great coaches may never even have raced/played at a high level. Conversely, some GREAT athletes who attempt coaching, just don't have a clue

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JC
Twitter: http://twitter.com/jeffcubos
Website: http://www.jeffcubos.com

As a former 0321/8541, hearing that only 2 guys in the whole company scored a 300 is a punch in my gut. If you cant go out and knock out a 300 on any given day...........then something is incredibly wrong. a 300PFT should be the "stepping off point", IMHO.

and hour of unit PT every morning at 0700, followed by a 5 mile run, chow, work. mile swim at 1100, chow, work, and then a 3 mile run or an hour in the gym in the evening was our garrison routine. You couldnt even get INTO sniper school if you didnt have perfect scores: PFT/pros-cons.

Well, sounds like you need to get in there and cut out the dead wood,

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Excellent point Brian. Besides reading the article, if you want to understand the philosophy and training methodology behind crossfit endurance, go to the website and get a better understanding of what it's all about. It's fricking hard training that'll humble you and get you thinking about how to improve your own training.

You know what you know. You know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. It's good to be righteous....self-righteous, not so much.

happy pesach,

spencer

Hard to cut out the dead wood nowadays when you have guys coming straight to Recon as their first unit straight from BRC. We call them Recon babies, pretty much only the team leaders, plt sgt's and SNCO's are the only ones with prior units/deployments. It's baffling compared to days of old, I don't know how many LCpls are running around here. Jump and Scuba bubbled out, but no Sea Service ribbon...shocked? I was too.

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Since when did LSD training make anyone faster? I know a ton of guys that can ride 200 miles at 16mph. LSD training makes you slow. Speed work makes you fast. I believe in intensity and minimal "junk" miles...quality over quantity. Do I post a race resume now?? :)

Not necessarily joining the CF arguement, just the LSD arguement...although I do agree that triathletes as a whole don't approach our sport from a skill standpoint. When's the last time you "practiced" the skills of SBR???

david K

Ya but they are dealing with the video game scared to play outside generation, it seems like in general they are used to being undisciplined and coddled and rewarded for small accomplishments. It doesn't surprise me at all that only 2 in the entire company could run under 18.

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Jack

I am getting out in a few months, but i did what i could. I had the fittest team in my company by far. We won every ruck event last year and no one was below a 285.

When i went through RTP we got fucking killed. Our head cadre was the first Marine across the line at the 2006 Armed Forces Tri Challenge at pt magu and won the overall at the 2004 superfrog(4:2x). Needless to say, we ran and swam a lot. If you couldnt post a 285 or above after the swim screening there was no way you earned a slot to leave RTP and go to BRC.
Last year we had guys show up from the new BRC running 250's or worse.
We sent some turds to SS last year too... oh and it's 0317 not 8541 now haha. That course is changed too. Dumbed down the mission planning week, no more all nighters writing patrol orders.
Even with a 90k bonus for SGT's my platoon had a 0% retention rate after last deployment.

Again, I think it goes back to your definition of "LSD." But if you need an example, like I mentioned before, take a look at Peter Snell and Arthur Lydiard. Peter will be the first to say their 20-mile runs weren't "slow," but they weren't blisteringly fast either. Did they make him faster? He won the gold medal in the 800m with a 1:44 or a 1:43.

For reference, I believe the fastest American 800m guy right now (still competing), I believe has a 1:43:3 (? Khadevis Robinson). We'll see, though, Nick Symmonds (who regularly runs 50-mile weeks), might top that this year. Either way, Peter Snell's time would've put him in gold medal contention at Beijing this past year.

I find it interesting how one article can be taken so out of context. First of all it doesn't state that 'endurance athletes don't know how to train', nor does it state that 'Macca' has something to learn. It simply gives a point of view on another way to train. Of all the postings I've read there have been no crossfitters represented. So, for the record, I use crossfit and it is a very powerful training tool. I wouldn't say that using crossfit will guarantee you win in Kona, but simply understanding how to exceed your own personal limitations and perform better than you hoped with less time and distance.

Here's what I've learned from DOING it:
1) You can recover much faster (or require no recovery time at all)
2) You can race faster than ever before (I have PR'd in every race that I have actually 'raced' since starting this type of training)
3) You can run marathon distances and never train double digit mileage (and finish stronger and faster than ever before, despite the widely held belief that you must follow a pyramid running scheme consisting of at least one 20 miler)
4) You don't need hours and hours and hours of training (in fact, in previous training programs I have put in incredible mileage and weight training with a result of chronic injury and poor performance)

Every individual is different, but I've yet to see a crossfit athlete who didn't experience what I describe above. Maybe instead of arguing the validity of the article you should try the crossfit style of training and then make your judgments.

There are lots of these crossfit guys at my gym, it is currently very popular as are the tattoos that make them look like Queequeg from Moby Dick. In a couple of years I predict both will be significantly less popular. At least they can stop doing crossfit workouts and go on to the next thing, but they will unfortunately all be stuck with those tattoos. Perhaps there will be able to find work as harpoon-men on whaling boats.

And what do you say to the women that employ this training strategy?

Good bye and good luck.

Sexy in their 20's, talk to me in 30 years though.

First, Brian MacKenzie, of CrossFit Endurance, does have a solid background and knowledge in published studies and training programs. His knowledge base and understanding covers all aspects of training. CFE is not a new trend it is a new approach to training. Transitioning to this type of training will take time because its different and not like anything many people have done in the past or like what other people are doing to train. Its going against the grain and a new approach to training. Athletes are scared to add muscle. The strength (crossfit) aspect is one new part and reworking their thinking/philosophy on training takes time. Change of any kind sucks and takes work which is why people don�t like change. Its not just changing the outlook on training additionally its change of movement patterns, nutrition, and understanding recovery. Until you have given this a committed chance you shouldn�t be discounting it. There are not the top level athletes as of yet because it is a relatively new program. Its just a matter of time. The results that are being seen by people using this method (including myself) are hard to dispute.

I think Catra Corbett is in her mid 40's.. She is in very nice shape.



trailgirl.blogspot.com

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Jack

Assume you're the same Kaitlin from CFE?

Can you give us examples of people that have used pure CFE approach for distance (IM/Marathons) events? I'd be interested to hear peoples opinions. What I have seen is a number of people that have modified the CFE approach and included longer sessions.

To me, CFE is to IM, as BMX racing is to the Tour. Both good exercises, but being good at one won't make you good at the other.

You should maybe go back and reread this thread, there were a lot of cross fit people who wrote in saying it was a nice system, but wasn't the end all be all of performance.

If you guys found a system that works for you that you enjoy, that's wonderful. Personally, I enjoy almost every single s/b/r training I do, and that's why I'm involved in the sport. I'm not interested in spending only 20 minutes a day training in the gym then going out and racing. Weights are great in the offseason, and helped me get over a bunch of injuries that I'm sure you guys would agree come from too much specificity, but until your method starts producing world class athletes, I wouldn't claim that it's better than the prevailing wisdom.

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

Last time I checked you guys were posting pictures of Lance swinging kettlebells and talking about how cutting edge he was and how it was his "secret weapon" or some other such non-sense. Last time I checked those were the fundamental to all CrossFit programs.

There is no doubt in my mind that by throwing in some CrossFit into your weekly regiment is going to help your overall fitness and enable you to go faster, even at the pinnicale of the sport. CrossFit is about stronger core and pushing yourself as hard as possible for short durations. Everyone of us can learn something from that proto. That said, CrossFit should not be the center of a long distance tri-training program.

I think that says more about recruiting for our military forces than anything else.

Go take a look at CFE though, to them its all or nothing, there's no "fitting in some CFE workouts". I just can't see how that approach would work for an endurance event.

Why don't you argue with someone who believes what you seem to think I believe because I do not believe that.

You seem to want to argue with someone who thinks a slow guy can't be a good coach.

That isn't me. I just think this crossfit guy is a crock of shit because HE holds HIMSELF up as an example of why his crossfit ideas are powerful, when in fact HE is an example of a slow triathlete. Something that I can do with my patented system of "dont swim at all, barely bike, run a lot, all of it LSD except for 1 fast day per wee"

He is going to need to hold up someone else he has trained as an example of his system being interesting.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

On a bike? probably nobody.
Running? lots of legends in the sport.

since, once you get off the bike and run, you are running slow (for you)

good to train the pace you race right? =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

The Cali guys drink the Kool-Aide pretty hard. Out here in Seattle they are not so dogmatic. My CrossFit coach knows a lot about training protos, physiology, nutrition and periodization. I'm proud he is on "my team" because he adds value far in excess of what I pay him for my 1 hour a week sessions.

I always thought it was best to train at the pace you can best recover from.

Well when you have taken some guys from 11 hour ironmans to 10 hours, or 10 to 9, let us know!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

i dunno that is really a very complex idea if you think about it.

But I am intruiged by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter!

That is if I ever start putting in enough hours for these details to really matter for me =)


I'm not even working out as much as the crossfit guys! for shame

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Well, please send $99.99 in a money order daily for the next month to an address TBD. Also, to subscibe to my ideas you have to have at least 8 piercings and receive botox injections to your ass at least twice a week.

I would just like to point out that while you may be able to recover faster, the part (in parenthesis) is physiologically impossible. Furthermore, since Crossfit advises a lowered training volume, allbeit at higher intensity, you are likely recovering faster because you are recovering longer. 20hr vs 10 hrs is a lot of additional recovery time.

CFE is programed for the masses so yes there may be some who have modified CFE to meet their specific needs or an upcoming race. Needed modifications are the difference between following the site and personally contacting Brian or Carl (or a trainer with knowledge of the system and how it works) for a personally tailored program based on your needs and race schedule. Following CFE as designed 100% and not adding to it will make you a faster triathlete. The comparison of CFE to IM as BMX is to the tour is not accurate.
Centermaddy Throwing in some CrossFit into your schedule isn't following the program by design so you won't experience all of the benefits as following it as prescribed.

lol...that sounded like something that would come out of the Church of Scientology! ;)

What studies has Brian MacKenzie published?

Tiago

or frank day!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I haven't read all of the posts here so far so pardon me if this has already been said because it seems so obvious. This guy says that he did years and years of LSD training before he wised up. So obviously this method gave him a very good base of fitness that allowed him to add all of this intensity. Without the base the intensity just leads to injuries. I think I read that the flame out rate for CrossFit is incredibly high. That is beside the point though. What the article doesn't say is how many years he was doing it "wrong" and when he started doing it the CrossFit way. His Ironman time is from many moons ago. I guess he decided that he couldn't handle another Ironman after walking most of the run the last go around. I guess he should have spent more time in the saddle and biking afterwards.

How many of the CrossFit Endurance people qualified for Kona last year? That would be a great question. Their claim that it is a new system and will take years to reap the full benefits is laughable.

Side note - my girlfriend did CrossFit and got in great shape but any run longer than 30 minutes and she was wiped out. I was thinking of doing one of their Boot Camps next month in addition to my tri training but this article makes me think twice. It is too bad that the CFE folks are embarassing the CF name.

I know my statement was very generalized as I did this on purpose because I just wanted to see what others had to say on this topic. My personal opinion on CF is that it is a good workout program as long as it fits your goals. If your goals are all around general fitness, then it is a great system. However, it is "trendy" right now whether people want to admit it or not. This is my opinion based on what I see in Southern California (several different gyms).

Problem with all of these different statements for and against is the lack of perspective. You say you have set personal records but my question (for perspective and not as a "call out") is what type of PR's did you have and what are they now.

It has been my experience, that almost any consistent training program that develops some type of fitness will allow people to be generally successful. However, "generally" successful is very different than being a top age grouper in larger, competative events. For perspective, a sub 12 hour IM for a male under 50 is generally successful and something to be proud of, but is far cry off what specificity trainers desire, which would probably be more in the 10 to 10:30 hour or faster range.

CF=good, but to be very good in a specific sport, you must train specifically for what you are going to do.

That isn't me. I just think this crossfit guy is a crock of shit because HE holds HIMSELF up as an example of why his crossfit ideas are powerful,

jack, youre exactly right, we have have the knowledge to say his training techniques are not only stupid but a waste of time. and yes, he is using himself as an example, there we have the right to criticize him.

using an ad hominem argument (atking the other person) isnt happening here.

i dont get why fleck and desertdude cant just say straight foward the training is pretty dumb. i know its what you guys are thinking it. theres nothing wrong with pointing out flaws just be like...

pros of article: talks about importance of intensity, nutrition, racing strategies, pacing
cons: training the crossfit way

only irrational people think that only super results of a coach is best indicator of how good he/she is going to be. some people were given amazing bodies, others amazing brains, and a small few both.

logical fallacy, again.

I think you are doing a good job of playing devil's advocate, Brian.

The guy is picking and choosing his principles based on what he's trying to push...not what is applicable to an endurance athlete.

If a guy comes to me and asks how he can go from a 5:00 to a 4:30 HIM...CFE is not going to be part of my toolkit. And if it IS part of that athlete's toolkit, I'm likely to recommend it get dropped after taking a look at the total training plan.

Put another way...if a dude comes to me with a 5:04 HIM time with, say, a 2:00 run split and asks me how he can run 1:30 and make a 4:30 HIM split...I am NOT going to be sending him CFE work. A little scratching of the surface is probably going to uncover a woefully inadequate bike and/or run volume. Not many people can run 1:30 HIM split on less than 20 miles a week running...though a boatload have tried.

The guy is picking and choosing his principles based on what he's trying to push...not what is applicable to an endurance athlete.

This is probably the best point made here. This guy was likely a good endurance athlete who got into CrossFit (lots of my cycling friends have as well). He got CrossFit certified and opened his own gym. Then he probably saw 50 other CrossFit gyms open nearby and said how can I be different. So now he has to make his preconcieved notion of how to train fit the endurance realm. Hopefully the CFE people will realize that following ANY training plan consistently will likely make you better and faster. The real question is would you be better or faster if you trained a different way. It is like the folks who do the Akins diet or just about any other diet. Yes you lose weight initially but it has more to do with the fact that you are actually watching what you put in your mouth than the diet.

BrzilianTri--
Articles that Brian has published in the CrossFit Journal include: The New World Order For Endurance Training, The Basics of Pose Running Technique, Endurance Training-- Decreased Time & Increased Work Capacity. You can access these by doing a search on the CrossFit.com journal page search "running" and they all are there

but he produces articles with bad suggestions...

He asked what studies he has published, not articles he has written.

Brian has not written any articles with bad suggestions in them. These articles elaborate on incorporating these methods and give examples of using it. The Endurance Training one follows, Rookie, in his preparation to run a hilly 50k (that�s 31.2 miles, with 5,490 feet of climbing) as his first long-distance race. On November 18, he completed his 50k with no
problems.

Crossfit Endurance + Dianetics + MonaVie = 6 HOUR IM!

Yeah, I know I dated myself with the old MOS designation, and I hope I never forget those nights spent rewriting patrol orders................


Reading about what's going on in the Corps just makes me feel like someone shot my dog...........

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Not sure what that tells me other than he completed 50K. Time/Pace? Previous times/pace? Did he run the entire event?

What exactly did the CFE do to improve his performance?

if your running coach held up his 6 hour marathon as an example of his coaching systems prowess, wouldn't think him silly?

Jack,

Perhaps, but I would also look at the fact that he had coached the athletes who held all running distance event running records in Canada at the time and as a matter of fact one of of the athletes he coached held the Canadian Men's marathon record - a record that still stands I might add. A number of National team and Olympic team members. The Club Cross country team that had won the national cross country championships for a number years. Plus he was a really nice guy. Cared about the athletes. Was passionate about the sport and saw some potential in me. Seemed like he knew what he was doing. The thought that he may have never run in his life, never occurred to me.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Murph-Fit is the non-swim training program for tri ;-)

kisses!

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

I'm going to start off my response by giving a bit of my personal history. I have been a big fan of this site for a long time, if you check my profile I first registered back in 2003. Haven't been on the site much over the last 2 years mostly because I can't access it from work. What does that say about my work ethic??? I have been involved in triathlon training since 1997 and running marathons since 2002. Up until late last year I always followed the traditional endurance athlete paradigm. I will admit though, I was never a super high weekly mileage kinda guy and was never good at LSD. I usually ended up doing Long A Bit Faster Than I Should Be Running Distance (LABFTISBRD, I guess). My friends always gave me crap saying that I was in a constant taper. At any rate, in January of last year I started doing CrossFit and somewhere around July or August I started doing CrossFit Endurance. I can say that without a doubt my fitness level now far exceeds any that I had ever achieved just through my previous endurance training. Is CF and CFE the portal to Endurance Nirvana? I don't know, but I can say that I'm damn happy with the results so far. Let me elaborate a bit:

1. Prior to starting CF my marathon PR was 3:06:43 which I logged at the Huntington Beach Marathon in 2005. One month after starting CF I nailed 3:03:36 at the 2008 Huntington Beach Marathon, in what was the worst weather I have ever run a marathon in. Now, I don't necessarily give all credit to CF for my 3+minute PR, because I had only been at it for a month and that was in the intro program, so I wasn't hitting it on all cylinders yet. I do, however, credit CF with my incredible recovery. In the past an effort like that would put me out for nearly a week. I would have been shattered for 3 days at least and wouldn't have considered anything resembling a workout, except maybe a really easy swim or spin on the trainer until about 5 or 6 days out. After posting this PR however, I was in the gym the next day doing light power cleans and on Tuesday did a workout named "Cindy" where I did 90 pull-ups, 180 push-ups and 255 air squats in 20 minutes. This absolutely blew me away and was my "a-ha moment" for believing in the power of CF.

2. In October of 2008 I ran the Long Beach 1/2 Marathon. For the 2 or 3 months prior to that I did nothing but CF 4-5 x per week and did CFE runs 2 x per week with an occasional CFE bike and swim. My longest training run was 8.5 mi, probably longer than would be recommended by Brian McKenzie for a 1/2 mary program. My time was 1:21 and change. Previous 1/2 mary PR is somewhere around 1:25, I don't run a lot of solo 1/2 mary's.

My wife also ran this 1/2. Her training plan consisted solely of CF 4-5 times per week. No running outside of what was prescribed in the WOD. We train at an affiliate (www.oceansidecrossfit.com) and therefore do not follow the CF mainsite WOD. So her longest single effort run was 1 mile, but that was in a WOD called "Murph" which starts and ends with a 1 mile run, so guess her longest training run was 2 miles, and definitely no more than 4-5 miles per week. Her result: 6+ minute PR. Previous best was 2:04 and she ran 1:58.

3. Just 1 week ago I raced the Devil Dog Duathlon at Camp Pendleton (5K R, 30K B, 5K R). Last time I raced this Du was 2005 and I finished in a time of 1:23:46. This year I went into the race, again following CF 4-5 times per week and CFE runs 2-3 times per week. Prior to this race I had not been on my bike since sometime around November of last year. The result this year was 1:25:52. Not a PR for this race, but I'll take it considering the complete lack of time in the saddle. Run splits were 18:31 (including transition) and 18:29...my 5K PR is 17:50.

My wife also decided to jump into this race. Still no run training going on and she has not been on her tri bike since she was about 4 months pregnant with our daughter who just turned 4 in March. Result: 2:04 total time with run splits of 28:06 (including transition) and 28:42. Not hitting the podium, but this time is very consistent with what she would have posted when previously following a traditional multisport training plan. Actually, her run splits are probably a bit better than she would have previously posted.

Currently I am training for the Pacific Crest Trail 50-miler. This will be my first ultramarathon event. I am doing CF 4-5 times per week and CFE runs 2-3 times per week. So far my long run has been about 10.5 mi TT. This weekend I will do 4x5K with 5 min recovery and in 2 weeks I'll do a 13.1 trail TT and that about wraps it up. This is uncharted territory for me, so I'm a bit apprehensive, but I think I would be even if I was following a traditional LSD program.

Now, I didn't post this as an absolute testament to the "Power" of CF Endurance. I'm still getting my feet wet with it. I hope to have a good result with the 50-miler and then look at other events to try this out on in the future. I really just wanted to show that there are some of us who are posting solid results while following this program. I'm not likely going to be winning races following CF/CFE, but let's face it, I never won any races following my old program. I am consistently staying a BOFOP (Back of the Front of the Pack) athlete, and I'm quite content with that.

I'll come back and post my 50-miler results...good, bad or indifferent.

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

Fleck, that's the point! Your coach DIDN'T hold up is running abilities as proof of his coaching prowess. He either (if he was humble) let the results of his athletes speak for themselves, or (if he was pressed) pointed to the results of his athletes as proof. This is exactly the opposite of what this dude is doing.... "I did a (amazingly slow) 11:33 Ironman on Crossfit Endurance training, therefore Crossfit works (N=1) and therefore Crossfit will work for everybody."

THIS is why we're ridiculing this dude, not because he's slow, but because he's using his slowness as proof that he's fast, which he isn't, and proof that you can be fast, which is a fallacy based on an N=1 argument that was disproved by itself, ie. the 11:33 IM time.

It's circular non-logic mumbo-jumbo designed to sell memberships to all the hot mommies and East Coast transplant dudes trying to compete in the dating market that makes up the Newport Beach zip code.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Now *your* results are such that they might actually get somebody's attention. Congrats to you, nicely done.

However

Event 100m 200m 400m 500m 800m 1000m 1500m Mile 2000m 3000m 2M 4000m 3M 5000m Time 15.0 30.0 1:02.7 1:21.8 2:17.7 2:59.9 4:43.6 5:05.4 6:27.2 10:06.6 10:51.6 13:48.9 17:00 17:38 Pace/Mile -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 5:11.5 5:25.4 5:25.8 5:33.5 5:40 5:41 Pace/K -- -- -- -- -- -- 3:09.1 3:09.7 3:13.6 3:22.2 3:22.5 3:27.2 3:31 3:32 Event 4M 8000m 5M 10K 15K 10M 20K 13.1M 15M 25K 30K 20M 25M Marathon Time 23:04 29:04 29:13 36:38 56:45 1:01:22 1:17:14 1:21:30 1:34:00 1:38:07 1:59:20 2:09:03 2:42:41 2:51:53 Pace/Mile 5:46 5:50 5:50 5:53 6:05 6:08 6:14 6:14 6:16 6:19 6:24 6:27 6:30 6:34 Pace/K 3:35 3:38 3:38 3:39 3:47 3:49 3:52 3:52 3:54 3:55 3:59 4:01 4:02 4:05


According to MacMillan, your marathon run was well off of what you *should* have been capable of, given your half mary time (which I entered as 1:21:30, since you were not specific about the 'and change' part.)

Oh, and given that you have had proper training for it. That's always the other caveat.
Here's said caveat for you, verbatim:
(Do keep in mind that a 5K runner is unlikely to run the equivalent time in the marathon off of 5K training. The runner would obviously need to train for the marathon to accomplish this equivalent time.)


The short high intensity stuff is good, I'm a fan.
But without a bit of the longer stuff mixed in, you will not perform up to the same level in longer events. As you yourself proved.
(and even more blatantly, that Brian dude proved, with his glacial mary at IMC)

PS - sorry the formatting got f'd. It looked fine before I submitted it.
The "equivalent performance" mary time for a 1:21:30 half mary, is 2:51:53
(that also equates to a 17:38 5k time, which is pretty close to your 5k PB)

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float , hammer , and jog

Throw in a few bikram yoga sessions and some P90X workouts and you actually never need to b/s/r at all!!!

I feel so dumb now, trying to improve my running by actually running.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Sorry.

I cannot get "on board" with articles written by a CF practitioner "published" in a CF rag. When he is published in one of the peer-reviewed journals of exercise physiology, then you may get the attention of myself and others around here.

A couple interesting points but otherwise it's crap. He was right about 1 thing..."I couldn't train him." in reference to Macca. Plus yea, are we to be impressed by his 11:33 Ironman finish? That gets him all aboard on the train to mediocre finish times. The article talks about finishing endurance races, not finishing them fast. If there were a shorter way to the top pros would be doing it, they would know about, there coaches would know about it. I think some coaches are doing similar things in terms of replacing a lot of LSD stuff with intensity, this concept isn't new though.

There are a lot of AG'rs out there that sit around wondering why they aren't getting faster even though they are putting in the hours. If you never go fast you will never be fast and that applies to any distance. If your never fast at the short stuff what speed do you think you will be racing the long stuff? Again this isn't new science. You need to do the long miles and put in the work, and you need to put in the intensity. Give me one good training program that doesn't have both in it.

This guy is trying to put his system in a fancy marketing package to put food on his table. End of story.

Nice post and congratulations on your achievements. I look forward to seeing how well you do in the 50. Like I said, I like CF and think people can have success with it. My issue is when someone - anyone- says their "system" is the best and will make EVERYONE better, faster, stronger than before. When instructors say things like this, I can't help but think of snake oil. It reminds me of the martial artists who argue "my system is better than yours because it's the ultimate way."

My guess (and I hope this in no way jinx's you) is that the longer the event you do on CF training, the less successful you will be. I believe you will be able to complete the events, but I don't expect your times to be as good as your 5k, 10k or half times. However, with that said, you will still be able to throw my little runner ass around like a kettle ball from all your CF training. :)

I checked out the crossfitendurance.com site and went to the forum. There's a thread on there right now for someone looking for help on doing and Ironman.
http://www.crossfitendurance.com/...pic.php?f=2&t=77

The fact that we are talking about it, and I am posting about it is exactly what this noodle wants. Its exposure. For the record, I like the CF concept, but this is ridiculous. Yes, Lance has that video out, but that's just something he's added to his training. He's still logging in the miles.

I am going to go ride my bike on the trainer while doing kettle balls. :)

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56-11...the only way to fly

I gotta say, you're dominating the ST forums with subtle Simpsons references. Well done, sir. Well done.

For all those that are calling into question Brian's IM time and saying it isn't fast he was doing only LSD training at that point. Brian made reference to not being able to train Macca because it would take time that he may not be willing to spend. It would be changing many aspects of his approach to triathlons. Looking at triathlons as a skill and not just swim,bike,run. There is a difference in having this approach alone. It would take time for a transition to this type of training because it is different and not like anything they have done in the past or like anything anyone else is using. Its going against the grain and a new approach to training. The strength part is one and reworking their thinking/philosophy on training takes time. Change takes work and people don't like it. And it would be changing many aspects in addition to just their training-- movement patterns, nutrition, their understanding of recovery etc. This doesn't take anything away from what he does. He is a world class athlete, period. In order to get this guy moving correctly he would take 2-3 yrs of this training so that he could get back up to the level he was at. But, he'd be stronger, and have many more abilities than swim/bike/run long.
Brian is not trying to put his system in a fancy marketing pattern to make money nothing could be farther from the truth. The longer the race does not mean there will be less of a performance. There are athletes using this system and having very successful races. Carl Borg for his first 100 miler at Angels Crest in September of last year in 29:31 The course is from Wrightwood, California to Pasadena, California through one of the toughest mountain ranges in the world.

Kaitlin, I really have to commend you for sticking up for what you believe here, not the easiest audience.

When you mention Macca and how CF would improve his skills, I'm not so sure. I have no doubt him and anyone else can benefit from CF at some level in addition to their training, but a small % depending on their training phase. But it seems that you believe CF alone or as a majority of the training should be CF, this is where you lose many here.

But, the day a CF trained athlete contends for #1 at Kona, you will be able to come back to say I told you so. I just don't think I will be holding my breath for that day.


Jim

Don't worry. When Lance wins Kona it will be effectively validated by the transitive property. :)

"On November 18, he completed his 50k with no
problems."

Seriously? That's what you call proof of concept? The very first question you should be asking is...has anyone ever accomplished the same thing WITHOUT this approach? I think you know what the answer is.

"Brian made reference to not being able to train Macca because it would take time that he may not be willing to spend. It would be changing many aspects of his approach to triathlons. Looking at triathlons as a skill and not just swim,bike,run. There is a difference in having this approach alone."

That presumes he knows and understands Macca's approach to triathlons in the first place. That's presuming a hell of a lot about a guy who owns a significant portion of the fastest times in Ironman/Ironman distance racing history.

"But, he'd be stronger, and have many more abilities than swim/bike/run long."

And those abilities are applicable to Macca's profession in what way? If you want to be good at triathlon, train run, bike, swim. If you want to be in good all-around fitness...do CFE.

Show me a peer reviewed study that proves this CFE approach turns out superior endurance performances in specific sports (triathlon in our instance)...and I'll pay attention.

"Throwing in some CrossFit into your schedule isn't following the program by design so you won't experience all of the benefits as following it as prescribed."

The classic "out" used when something doesn't work as advertised.

pfft. That takes too much time ;-)

Did you listen to my interview yet? you need to do it by Sunday before it goes offline!!!

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

How are we defining high intensity work?

Lance Armstrong does a lot of everything. Not only large amounts of "low intensity" work which is all relative. His low intensity is is probably too hard for most average triathletes to keep up for very long.

He also does weights, interval work (VO2 max), tempo work (AT), etc which can be considered high intensity work.

I'm sure that many of you have seen articles in Triathlete that advocated the benefits of higher intensity endurance work that generates lactate. Also that lactate itself can be used as a fuel in highly trained athletes. If you can do these high intensity workouts (intervals, etc.) without getting injured or burned out you'll get more bang for your buck.

Nice work dangling a fresh pork chop in front of the hungry rottweiler that is ST! Setting the over-under at 200 posts for this one.

Paul

"I did a (amazingly slow) 11:33 Ironman on Crossfit Endurance training, therefore Crossfit works (N=1) and therefore Crossfit will work for everybody."

I get what you are saying, but "Fast" and "Slow" are relative terms here. That 11:33 time, while no where near "fast" in my book, is in fact faster than the average or median times at most IM races.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

TriBriGuy--To have the only thing you get out of your training is to be fast at swim/bike/run what happens when you are taken out of that domain you should have transferrable traits. What happens when something happens in life and with all the training you have done you are able to handle it. Conditions in life as well as life changes and conditions are guaranteed. Long oxidative training comes at a price. It just so happens that I don't feel swim/bike/run long is enough. It is all going to come at a cost, and that cost will show up between the ages of 40-50yrs. You cannot overtrain your entire career without consequences. Some of these consequences from overtraining oxidatively: In humans, oxidative stress is involved in many diseases, such as atherosclerosis, Parkinson's disease, Heart Failure, Myocardial Infarction, Alzheimer's disease and chronic fatigue syndrome, but it may also be important in prevention of aging by induction of a process named mitohormesis. Reactive oxygen species can be beneficial, as they are used by the immune system as a way to attack and kill pathogens. Reactive oxygen species are also used in cell signaling. This is dubbed redox signaling. CF and CFE is not only about good all around fitness there are alot more very valuable health benefits in addition to race performance. You don't have the negative effects of overtraining in the oxidative pathway which comes at a price.

It is all going to come at a cost, and that cost will show up between the ages of 40-50yrs.

Not sure what that "cost" is, but I will take it. Last week I was mistaken for being in my mid to late 30's - I turn 48 in two weeks! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

When Brian did his IM he was doing LSD training it was following that experience when he became involved with CF and their training methods.

Kaitlin, I really have to commend you for sticking up for what you believe here, not the easiest audience.

Before getting all warm and fuzzy, Kaitlin has six posts on this forum, all magically relating to this topic, and all sounding like a bad informercial for CFE. If you think that this poster is not a shill then I have some lovely beachfront property to sell you in Arizona.

And I am not slagging the program. I am sure that for overall fitness CFE is very valuable, but it strikes me as yet another "my way is the only way" fitness cult.

I want to S/B/R faster, not build the perfect beach body ... so yes I will lift a few weights and do a few yoga classes, but mostly I am going to Run, Bike and Swim. Go figure.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Last week I was mistaken for being 80 and I'm 57 ;-)

Seriously, I hope this stuff works, because I'm an old dude how enjoys lifting and don't get to do it but once a week. Loss of muscle mass is a bigger issue for old dudes like me. If I could spend a little more time in the gym and a little less away from home on long slogs, my wife would be happier. I'm not sure I want to jump headlong into this, though. Besides I do enjoy longer runs and rides.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

I understand what she's doing. She keeps coming back when I think most wouldn't. I might not agree with someone that drinks the kool-aid, but I do admire the commitment.


I guess if I gave my brother a jump rope, told him to use it 3 times a week and then enter him in a ultramarathon and he completes the event, my training is also a success. There really is little differance in that and her point here so far.

But it may make you a better CYCLIST ------>>>>>




Lance's conditioning program that he used to "get back in shape"
looked very much like CF

After years of lurking I signed up for just because this thread is so ridiculous.

This puts him at 52/98 finishers and he was 11 hours slower then the winner, decidedly middle of the pack. Additionally this does not take into consideration any base he has previously built.

This does not mean Crossfit is not worthwhile, any program that gets a person to consistently train is a good program. But to say that it is better the same other style, and more to the point to say that endurance athletes need to spend more time developing their anabolic strength verses their aerobic is dubious at best.

It would be interesting to pit a number of athletes against each other, who starting with the same base fitness, trained with Crossfit or traditional training programs (LSD).

The end all, be all of performace??
I'd argue it is the best general fitness program out there. I would not be in better overall shape doing any other program.
CrossFit is a foundation to be built upon for any specific sport you care to get excel in.

"I'm not interested in spending only 20 minutes a day training in the gym then going out and racing."
There are plenty of workouts that take a lot longer that 20 minutes and less than 20 minutes. Most of them are "racing" agaisnt the clock.
The workouts incompass "broad time and modal domains". All part of GPP. No need for seperate cardio and weight workouts.

World class athletes??
What makes a person an "athlete"? Who is a better athlete?
Someone who can ride the fastest 100 miles, 30 miles, or the fastest 4000m track time?
Someone who can run the fastest marathon, 10K, 5K, 100m the fastest?
Someone who can bench their body weight the most times, or who can squat the most?
Someone who has a highest vertical leap or someone who can do the most pull-ups?
I'd say the world class athlete would be the one who has the best combined score in all the above disciplines.

Some may say, "a 450 DL isn't going to get me a Kona win". Then if what you want is to be the #1 triathelete your going to be weak in other areas, though less weak then someone who wants to be the fastest marathoner. That is why I personally chose the olympic distance triathlons as something I want to dabble in. I personally don't care to be racing more than 3 hours.

It all comes down to this folks, specailist will always need to specialize in their given field.
The further you want to go faster, the more specialized you'll become.
To each their own...Peace.

It's morning now, everybody has had their coffee, and now its going to get really entertaining!

I love reading the posts written by people who join the site just to defend an indefensible position on the topic.

I also love all the typos and nearly indecipherable semi rants, the cut n paste wikipedia-esque label knowledge "bombs"; and so forth.

It leaves me thoroughly entertained, and begs the question: how is it that someone is smart enough to turn on the computer and type, yet dumb enough to post "that"!

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

I turn 51 in a month. If I can only get there without coming down with any of those nasty illnesses mentioned between 40 and 50, I'm good to go!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

This is a triathlon forum. We all want to be fast triathletes. That is why we train like triathletes. Whats the problem? We do our thing, you do your thing. I do not care if you can clean and jerk more than me, stop trying to make me slower with your stupid crossfit.

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Jack

I will bet you cash dollars that the instant Armstrong decided to return to pro cycling, if not sooner, he stopped doing everything you showed him doing. None of what he was doing in those photos made him a better cyclist; I'd argue that it probably made him worse. You think he did any of that crap on top of the 30+ hours a week he was riding himself back into shape?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I agree. I used to be an internationally competitive whitewater kayak slalom racer - and had weight training forced on me to improve. It didn't do anything but make me look better. I could maybe pull more water for a short amount of time, but got fatigued just as quickly.

It wasn't until I joined a better team that was coached by an olympic gold medalist (who trained the old fashioned way of base building, tapering, etc) that I actually got worlds faster.

I'm living proof this stuff is hyped garbage, as are probably countless journal articles. Lifting weights in a very intense manner, even when geared very specifically to the sport, did not help one ounce with speed over a race course. It is simply not transferable, it is too general to be of use. Only incorporating speed work and strength endurance work "in the boat" helped - and of course, far before that I laid down a large base of endurance the "old fashioned way."

Enough said.

To post what? What warunner posted or what he responded to?

 
Nahh, I just hit the reply button, wasnt in response to that post(er).

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

x3

I have tried to avoid joining in the discussion here, but your post just made my day!

I keep wondering what are these other life things I should be able to do that I would only be able to do if I did crossfit.

It would be interesting to pit a number of athletes against each other, who starting with the same base fitness, trained with Crossfit or traditional training programs (LSD).

Ken, my response was partly in jest to the kettle bell quote. Obviously by looking at him now he is not doing a whole lot of CF like training. When exactly he made the determination to cease, I guess only he knows. Maybe it was just some dis-information campaign to get his competitors to bulk up.

You obviously have some intimate knowledge of his training schedule and protocols, I just find it strange that you have never been mentioned in multitude of profiles/books/articles about the man. I guess you are more modest than your posts suggest. Please share more of what you know...

Crossfit can help your triathlon performance --but only if you do the workouts while wearing ghey compression socks.

So have any fitness professionals chimed in yet? Or will I be the first? I'm not a fan of CF - simply because it seems to involve alot of complex movements that are often done improperly by lay populations. I've been through a few workouts, and it is a definite butt kicker. The big reason resistance training programs should be utilized by athletes, no matter what the sport, is simply due to the scientifically proven role it has in injury prevention. As triathletes, most of our movement is linear, so - we train in one plane (sometimes 2), day in day out. Our bodies adapt, and muscles start misbehaving, eventually leading to overuse symptoms, and even worse, injury. With this in mind, we can also argue that if you're able to train injury free for longer periods of time, overall performance improves. A comprehensive program put together by a certified professional that understands the demands of the sport is crucial.

The exercises Lance was pictured doing earlier are mostly strength or power based exercises; and, most likely only a snippet of his comprehensive program. Just because he's pictured doing these exercises, doesn't mean they're all he does. Do these exercises make him a faster cyclist? In the long run, they do. Outside of having phenomenal genes - the man did break his collarbone, yet is already back on his bike. If he didn't do any kind of resistance training prior to his injury - his post surgical recovery would be taking much longer.




FYI I have BS in Athletic Training and Sports Medicine - and am certified and hold advanced specializations with the National Athletic Trainers' Association, National Academy of Sports Medicine, and National Strength and Conditioning Association.

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"Pain is relative...You'll pass out before you die"

Was this post, too, party in jest? It's hard for me to tell. You might try the pink font that seems popular in The Lavender Room.

Lance Armstrong knows what it takes to win a Grand Tour: extra muscle and explosive strength aren't part of what it takes. One does not need intimate knowledge of his training to know, with certainty, that he does no training that might add upper body mass.

Those photos were taken during a phase of his life in which W/kg didn't matter to him. That phase has passed, for now.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

So just because of your one experience and your saying, "enough said" means that it's fact, no more discussion...whatever. Maybe your first coach was terrible. I knew a guy at my gym that also raced kayaks on the international level who attributed his success partially to his "weight training".

I am not for a minute saying that CF or any other HIIT protocols are substitutes for training specificity and think any who would say as much is distorting what CF is about. 30 mile rucks, marathons, or what have you, require some (ok, a lot) very specific adaptations that are not duplicated in the gym.

Personally, I like CF/Gym Jones/Ross Training styles. Do I think they make me a better cyclist? Depends on the definition. Cyclist as a person - yes. Cyclist with a podium spot - maybe not. Is it for you or anyone else? Maybe, maybe not, but I can say that because I have nothing to sell or drive traffic to.

I'll try the pink font next time ;-)

"Long oxidative training comes at a price. It just so happens that I don't feel swim/bike/run long is enough. It is all going to come at a cost, and that cost will show up between the ages of 40-50yrs. You cannot overtrain your entire career without consequences. Some of these consequences from overtraining oxidatively: In humans, oxidative stress is involved in many diseases, such as atherosclerosis, Parkinson's disease, Heart Failure, Myocardial Infarction, Alzheimer's disease and chronic fatigue syndrome, but it may also be important in prevention of aging by induction of a process named mitohormesis. Reactive oxygen species can be beneficial, as they are used by the immune system as a way to attack and kill pathogens. Reactive oxygen species are also used in cell signaling. This is dubbed redox signaling. CF and CFE is not only about good all around fitness there are alot more very valuable health benefits in addition to race performance. You don't have the negative effects of overtraining in the oxidative pathway which comes at a price."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Please, explain. What makes CFE so special that its somehow a preventive cure for Parkinson's disease, but running 15 miles causes Parkinson's disease? Seriously? It looks to us like you're drinking some pretty powerful kool-aid.

I'm not asking for a response based on what someone selling CFE is telling you, I'm asking for a response based on objective data from controlled studies in a peer-reviewed journal. Until you can provide that, your arguments will continue to be met with skepticism and will likely be dismissed as just another fad started by someone looking to make a quick dollar.

Also, you have to remember, most people on here DO recognize the value of cross-training and resistance training. Much of the negative backlash is due to the personality of Brian, and his seemingly arrogant, and self-promoting claims.

Judging by your background, you should have no problem providing such scientific proof for your injury prevention claim.

Funny how those exercises, which you claim will make him a faster cyclist, aren't done by any current pro cyclist.

Finally, your claim that it's the resistance training that enabled him to resume his training quickly indicates that you don't know much about collarbone injuries and pro cyclists. The scrawniest and weakest pros come back from such (common) injuries with lightning speed. For instance, Rebecca Twigg broke her collarbone in 1995. 11 days later, she won the 3000m pursuit world championships and set a world record in the process. Of course, she only had seven screws, not a dozen.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Apparently you missed the part where I concurred that CF and/or CFE has merit in the training regimen of someone looking to be well-rounded in fitness and health. But we're not talking about general fitness. In your title of the thread you capture the general tone of the article...that we don't know how to train (and by inferrence, this guy does).

The angle we're addressing is that the implication from the article is that a dedicated professional (or otherwise) triathlete should add CFE to "improve" their performances. The article further references Chris McCormack, an athlete who is one of the top few triathletes at his chosen game, and who has been so at ITU distances through IM.

All we're saying is that he'd better come with more evidence before he starts implying that he could improve Chris McCormack or any other of us. The article is unconvincing to anyone capable of asking even second-order questions.

Come with real data. Until then...I'm unconvinced.

To the defenders of the "tried & true": It has been said, but I think it is worth repeating...CrossFit focuses on GPP (General Physical Preparedness). The basic idea is to improve work capacity across the 10 domains of fitness (Cardiorespiratory endurance, stamina, strength, flexibility, power, speed, coordination, accuracy, agility and balance) as much as possible. To specialize in one domain means that you sacrifice performance in another. I think we can all agree to that right? Anyway, the idea is that on any given day, given any specific physical demand, a well trained crossfitter should be able to perform reasonably well. What's reasonably well? Well if the physical demand is an endurance event, the CFer will do better than a powerlifting specialist. If it's a weightlifting event the same CFer will do better than an endurance specialist. If you averaged out the CFer's performance across a broad spectrum of physical demands his/her performance would be better than the average performance of any one domain specialist.

CrossFit Endurance basically says, now that your overall fitness (work capacity) is improved you can translate that into improved endurance performance with just a little bit of endurance supplementation. I know some people within the community have gotten a bit over zealous with claims of what CFE is capable of, but at it's core it is still CrossFit. I don't know any CFer's worth a grain of salt that don't understand that to be the best in the world in any given event you have to be a specialist. You have to make the decision (consciously or unconsciously) to sacrifice performance in one domain of fitness to be the best at another domain. This is why you will never see someone who has a 3x bodyweight Deadlift run a sub-4 minute mile and you'll never see a sub 2:10 marathoner snatch 100Kilos. The funny thing is this, CFE has attracted a good following. Many are experienced endurance athletes and many are doing well. How you define well, is up to you, but if people are consistently setting PR's in my book that's doing well. Even if that person is finishing DFL, if they are doing it faster than they did before, that's success! So, there is no "peer reviewed", "placebo controlled" studies on CFE, but there is mounting empirical evidence. I'm hoping to add to that body of growing evidence. I invite you to sit back and watch and let's see if we all can't learn something.

To the CF/CFE Defenders: If you have been to a Level 1 certification or if you have ever had the pleasure of hearing Coach Glassman speak I am sure you have heard this before. Coach G has always said that he isn't saying that CF is absolutely the best program ever, it's just the best thing he has come up with so far. If anybody else out there can do what we (CrossFitters) do better on a different program then come show us and we will adopt that program. Essentially that is what the Slowtwitch crowd is saying. You say that your program is superior to the traditional program...well prove it. It's now up to us to either prove that CFE is better or at least comparable.

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

There's obviously not going to be any convincing here on either side, everybody likes their own training techniques especially if it's worked for them so far. But I'll jump in and at least give my two cents on Crossfit and CF Endurance since there's a huge misunderstanding of it among the ST crowd. I am not a triathlete, just a measly runner, but the concept applies to multi-sport as well.

CF/CFE has plenty of running (or, the sport of your choice) in it. In training for an endurance run, a week of run-specific training will typically have 3 days of hard running. This is not dissimilar to the traditional training methods. For the most part, we just cut out the 'easy'/'recovery' runs, and push harder on the quality runs. There are typically 2 interval workouts and one tempo or time trial a week. The interval workouts on average range from a mile up to, i dunno, say 4 miles, plus a short warmup and cooldown. The tempo/TT for someone training for distance will be anywhere from as little as 30ish minutes (~4miles.. that being a very very short one) up to a 13.1 (that being a very long one, and that distance rarely done), with something in the 50-60min range I'll say is average if you look at it over a few months. Add that up and there's plenty of quality running in a week. We don't do more because a) we run these 3 workouts extremely hard and the muscles are drained (fast twitch baby!) and need a day or more of recovery and b) there will be other workouts required that are not running specific.

But running is not it. We also do 4-6 crossfit workouts a week too. Any traditional training program I've seen has a day or two of 'crosstraining' in it, we just take that portion of the training cycle very seriously and consider it the core of the program. They'll have lifts, conditioning, gymnastics, everything.. it's whole body, varied, and random so your body will never adapt to the same training. Several of these will include run intervals as well (pulling something out of my ass here.. a workout may be, say, 4 rounds of 400m run + 20 pushups + 20 pullups + 20 squats).

It's not uncommon to have 20 mile or more weeks. We just don't do the 60, 80, 100, etc mile weeks that a lot of long distance runners put in, the logic behind that being the aerobic/oxidative pathways get sufficient-to-maximum training at significantly shorter distances.

CF isn't in any way training people to run IMs simply by swinging kettlebells. It's training people to do anything they want to do by kicking them in the face so hard that anything else feels like a cakewalk. Not trying to sell anybody on anything, just want to add some clarity. If you don't like it, so be it. The training is far more than swinging kettlebells to get in 'general shape'. If you're interested (which i dont expect) or at least intrigued, just go to crossfit and check it out, it's free. (and nobody i know works out in gay compression socks.. most of us are barefoot on gravel while chewing razor blades holding shards of broken glass).

Good luck with whatever training you're doing, the best thing is that you're doing it.

  
World class athletes??
Some may say, "a 450 DL isn't going to get me a Kona win". Then if what you want is to be the #1 triathelete your going to be weak in other areas, though less weak then someone who wants to be the fastest marathoner. That is why I personally chose the olympic distance triathlons as something I want to dabble in. I personally don't care to be racing more than 3 hours.

You're right, I should have said "World Class Triathlete," but I'm pretty sure you know what I meant. As far as super fit people go, you should maybe go check out the performers in cirque de soleil. Those folks are completely amazing athletes, full of power, grace, endurance, and injury resistance. They effortlessly put on something like 8 shows a week, for weeks at a time. Whatever they're doing is probably even better for general fitness than your CF program, so maybe the next fad you guys can jump on is joining the circus. ;)

If we're talking about weakness, I believe your CF program makes you a weaker triathlete, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Why do you CF fans keep jumping in to defend your position? We all agree, CF probably makes you very strong and allows you to complete these endurance events, but to say that triathletes don't know how to train to excel in our given field is a little offensive.

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

Ken,

I don't advocate CFE or CF, so don't go thinking I'm on that side of the issue, but I have to correct you on something here:

Those photos were taken on 10/20/2008, after Lance announced his comeback.

http://www.livestrong.com/...4-a965-ff0471b7d711/

I agree with what your saying - but my post was a commentary of the article where the guy comes across as THE endurance expert essentially claiming that I am wasting my life away with sports specific training. Really? He's asking for it if you ask me...

I'm not here to defend my past or my accomplishments - I'm simply saying that there is a place for both strength and endurance training - but to say that squatting and deadlifting heavy weights the "fran" way is going to make you a better marathoner is a bit out of reach UNLESS you also encourage some form of specific endurance training. And yes, I am saying that training specificity trumps old fashioned fitness routines, or crossfit, or Gym Jones, etc when it comes to peak performance for world class events. There is no way you can show up for olympic trials having just lifted some tremendous amount of weight and expect to win. Believe me.

If, on the other hand you are simply talking about general fitness - and sports that reward the most successful generalists, then I may concede that crossfit may be the gateway to success for those events. For example, MMA fighters would probably become world class if they subscribed to what this man is saying...but for sports that reward the specialists, something more is needed...

Crossfit, Gym Jones, etc. will make you the best possible ball of clay to then mold through specific athletic training - but muddling peaking cycles with these programs that are more geared toward achieving general fitness through interval and power work is not going to improve the end result for the specialists. The place for crossfit is in the base foundation cycle if you're seriously competitive and gearing to step onto the podium. On the other hand, if you're trying just to stay fit and perhaps do a few races for your own personal benefit - then yes, crossfit is a very good thing to throw into the mix to keep you in excellent shape.

BUT, this guy is telling the endurance pros that they are fools... C'mon now... Marketing hype, or whatever you want to call it, is interesting to read - but coming across as the champion of fitness and all that is healthy is a bit preposterous.

I agree that if CF does not improve a soldiers performance on the field then they need to stop wasting time with it.

Coach Glassman from CF is a smart/shrewd fellow who would not push this on the military if he thought it would fail. As a matter of fact I think I recall him throwing out a cash challenge to any other training protocol in the GPP realm.

Also I'll see if I can dig up a link to a talk he gave about using a CF group and a regular PT in the Canadian Forces as a study. Supposedly the CF group did better on the PT exam than the group that trained specifically for it.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Exactly my point!! A soldier needs to be the quintessential generalist and this CFE program makes perfect sense for them. On the other hand, for a specialist athlete, already on the peaking cycle, CFE would probably detract from the performance more than it would help.

CFE ideally, has a place during the first 3 "rest/base" months of a triathletes year. The following 3 base months should be geared more toward specifics, and then the following 6 should be for peaking for the race. Any CFE besides the first 3 months is probably bad for the elite specialist.

Again, for an MMA fighter or a guy who needs to be 100% in shape all the time CFE I would bet is THE single best way to go if you could only pick one training method.

Well said.

I want to see this "study."

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

"There's obviously not going to be any convincing here on either side"

That is entirely untrue. Show me the data and I'll happily add CFE to my training. Absence that data, I'm calling the bluff based on the sketchy "evidence" provided since my own N=1 experience and learning base does NOT support the implied claim that I could be a better triathlete/duathlete by incorporating CFE into my training.

Yeah, I used that term a little loosely...

Hey man,
I'm not looking for a fight. First off - I didn't mean to imply that those specific exercises are making him a faster cyclist. I said that "in the long run, they probably do," referring back to what I stated earlier in regards to them being part of a comprehensive program that help prevent him from getting injured. Second, a typical broken collarbone takes roughly 6 to 8 weeks to heal on its own, and 4 if a plate is inserted. Please don't take what I said out of context, and assume I don't know anything. Lance was already back on his bike several days after his surgery.


http://www.roadcycling.com/...mstrong_002674.shtml

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"Pain is relative...You'll pass out before you die"

As is every pro cyclist with a broken collarbone. That's their job. That doesn't mean their collarbones are healed, as they are not. It's only that they can and must continue to train while said collarbone heals. You won't see them racing on the road until the bone is (nearly) healed, unless they are willing to risk more severe injury in case of a crash. The fact that Armstrong was riding soon after his surgery has nothing to do with his prior upper-body fitness.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

If a 43 year old retired Marine engaging in Triathlon type training, can trounce an active duty 20-something "soldier" who uses CF/CFE (Im going to assume you meant Marine but dont understand the difference), on a PFT, then I suspect its about as useful to the Military as Pilates.

I also suspect that most of you Pro CF people are assuming that everyone on this has or does only engage in TRI or endurance based activities, that we all weight about 145 to 165lbs, and only know our way thru a gym because they have treadmills in the there. ;-)

You MIGHT find that there are individuals here you can readily walk into a gym, knock out deadlifts, squats, dumbell bench presses, etc with bodyweight for 100reps. and then go for a few hours worth of cardio. And most importantly, we can do it again TOMORROW, and the day after that. A CFE practioner would bonk so hard they'd leave a smoking crater............

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

I understand the difference. When you say you can trounce any 20-something solder, in what feats are we talking?

Dude, dumbbell bench press with body weight...for (hard swallow) 100 reps....repeat 24 hrs later AFTER cardio, and, AND using tri training only.

One word......wow.

This is what is in dispute.

I will stick with running because with McMillan's Calculator and others like it you can determine your performance level and see how well your fitness holds up over distance. Run a 10k race and then a month or two later run a Marathon. If you are unable to sustain your pace your limitation is your running endurance. No amount of squats, dead lifts, push-ups will help you to overcome that. To stress/train your endurance you must train longer.

So fitness has nothing to do with recuperation.

Just askin' Ken...not being wiseacre.

The poster to whom I responded said "the man did break his collarbone, yet is already back on his bike. If he didn't do any kind of resistance training prior to his injury - his post surgical recovery would be taking much longer."

Thus, he was claiming that Armstrong's CF-like regimen was the reason for his short recovery. I assert that is not the case: all pro cyclists, independent of whether they did resistance training (and nearly all pro road cyclist don't), recover with that speed. It may have to do with their levels of fitness, or the fact that it's their job to resume training ASAP, or just HTFU. But it ain't due to their buffness.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yup

Whatever they're doing is probably even better for general fitness than your CF program, so maybe the next fad you guys can jump on is joining the circus. ;)
Ha, ha it's funny you mention them. The founder of crossfit is an ex-gymnast and we do incorporate the rings in a lot of workouts, as well as handstand push-ups, etc.

If we're talking about weakness, I believe your CF program makes you a weaker triathlete, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I don't really think we disagree, we are just looking at the equation from two different angles. crossfit helps me compete at the level I'm currently at. But if I intend to become more competitive in triathlons I would need to shift the balance of crossfit and specialized training I do.

We all agree, CF probably makes you very strong and allows you to complete these endurance events, but to say that triathletes don't know how to train to excel in our given field is a little offensive.
Again, at least for myself I think we are just looking at it from different angles. Crossfit gives you additional tools to excel in your sport, while it's the basis of my fitness.

Cheers!

Ya! Ya!! We all jump at the chance to be handsome farmers!!!!

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Jack

It's fine if you dispute it, I really don't care. The fact of the matter is all those calculators and cookie-cutter runners world programs or whatever where you simply enter a distance you want to run and have it compute a weekly ascending mileage program based off a shorter run are based on little science. They're based on previously tried and true methods that worked, yes, but that doesn't make them scientific. Ok, so the program says this week you need to run a 25 miler on saturday. Why not run 15 or 20 or 100 or 250 miles? Long runs are about building a long base, but what if there are other ways to build that base? What science said 25 miles is the perfect number for this week? It's not scientific, it's just a method that's worked in the past. Well that's all that's going on here, new methods are being tried, and they're being tried successfully. No, Koma (or whatever you tri guys consider elite) is doubtfully going to be won by a CFE trained athlete this year. CF+CFE like any program is going to have to be tweaked for the individual athlete and it could take years to get it right and the program is just too new (no, not the methods, the program itself). But no one can dispute that CF+CFE can make a top level athlete, anyone who believes that is being short sighted. Maybe it's a big secret or something, maybe nobody's really paying attention to how everyone in the top 10 percent trains to get there, I don't know, but I see postings about CFE trained guys and gals hitting top 10s and top 20s all the time. They doubtfully post on ST so you may not see them if this and the tri mags are all you read. Just sayin.

This is two ways of training which people are having success with. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. From the start of CFE the guys have known its not for everyone. Fact is most people don't like change, because change requires work. As with any new approach to something there will be an adaptation phase before you see all of the potential results. Its another way of achieving success. The system you follow is a personal decision to be made.

The issue as I see it is this:

If you awknowledge that the program isn't for everyone, and that specificity is needed for an elite level, then on what planet does "Brian" think he can talk about Chris McCormack? That's what we have our panties in a bunch over.

Ok, so maybe Chris can't "squat 450" pounds, but can any of the CFE guys drop a 2:40 Ironman marathon run?

CFE is specificity itself...in being a jack of all trades and master of none.

It's a good thing you're not Haggard anymore. I must be though; reading this is making me tired. It's probably all the sciency stuff. It gives me a headache. I don't need science to tell me that if I increase the amount of weight I can lift one, or five, or 20 times that my performance in the marathon will improve.... it just makes sense.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Based on your response you have little understanding as to how calculators like McMillan or VDOT work, how they were formulated and why they can be useful when considering designing a training program. And yes, call me short sighted but until I see a big sample of athletes qualifying for Kona or pros winning races following exclusively the CF/CFE method then I doubt it can make a top level elite athlete.

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Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM

You guys love this catch phrase don't you. People here aren't doubting CFE becuase 'it requires work' (you think IM is easy?). People here are doubting it because there is little evidence it is better than the 'traditional' approach.

I have to say that you do a good job at remaining courteous to everyone. Thanks for that.

Now, when you say things like 'because change requires work', I think you should choose your words a bit more carefully. The folks you're talking to are training a lot, and training hard, so at the very least, do not write something that questions people's work ethics.

Macca is also a poor choice for you. Why? The guy is in his late 30s. It takes 2-3 years to change you say, and that pushes him in the 40s. If you wanted to prove that CFE can have kick ass results in triathlon at the pro level, go talk to Terence Bozzone for instance. Very talented and young.

Your sentence before last says 'it's another way of achieving success'...hmmm...so, are you now saying that both approaches are viable? It's not the same thing as suggesting CFE will yield better results. I do understand why someone would be interested in CFE though. Probably somewhat more proportionate bodies, at least considering the current 'fashion' when it comes to body type.

That said, I live in a city with a couple of gyms offering this type of training, and I see a lot of folks getting injured, often with injuries requiring surgery. Not that our 'standard' training isn't creating a whole bunch of injured folks too, but it usually takes time before that happens whereas with CFE, it seems to happen a lot.

I would also be very cautious when you say that Brian has 'published' research. As many have said already, he has written articles for fitness magazines. It's not the same thing at all. Several of us here published in peer-reviewed journals and it hardly compares...

Anyhow, I do think there is a value to CFE, however, I think the value it provides is not anywhere near as high as what is being suggested. The is a lot of published research ;-) showing that specificity remains a key trait of good training.

You seem like a nice person who believes in what you do/support. That being said, your posts on here are coming across as general, uninformed, and quite frankly, they damage the credibility of you and your company.

There are many people on here that are elite and pro athletes, and have significant knowledge of training, racing, and nutrition.

To suggest to this audience that "most people don't like to change, because that requires work" is asinine. The people on this site put more work into their hobbies than most people put into their job, and that's on top of having a career etc.

I believe that your company and it's philosophy can benefit a great number of people, but suggesting that it is a form of endurance training for long course triathlon is more than a stretch, it's just false. The "other" training methods that you say are a "choice" have been developed based on science, research, and real world performance of athletes in this particular sport.

Your company should pick 20 athletes of similar background, train ten of them with your program and ten with another "accepted" training method and compare the results of their performance increases. I'll bet my house on the "accepted" training group. PM me if you want to take me up on the bet, I'll put it in writing in a legally binding way.

Fixed it for you.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I think this line (the one you keep repeating) is the part that comes across the most arrogant. I disagree with it completely, however. People love change�particularly when it comes to their workout programs�and that's where CF's financial success is coming from. Face the facts: if it wasn't new, fresh, exciting and different, why would anyone be doing it?

Lots of people change their workouts up every month or two, looking for the next "craze" that will help them lose the weight, and that's who the customers for these things are. One day, it's CrossFit, the next day it's P90X, and let's not forget pilates, Billy Blaze's boxing workout (what was that called?), buns/abs/thighs/brains of steel, etc. They never stick with something long enough to make the adaptation. Consequently, they don't lose the weight, gain the muscles, etc.

Have you ever heard of someone being "bored" with his or her workout program? People hate monotony, even though it's often the key to getting fit.

People love change, particularly with regard to their workouts.

I understand how they work just fine thanks. A couple things that are being missed here. First is that the most elites of the bunch, the guys who will actually win the best of the best races are going to excel no matter what they do. Honestly, they're bad examples for any debate and shouldn't be used for argument, it sucks that they were from the very start. The Maccas and the Armstrongs and the Carpenters of the world or whoever else you idolize are just superhuman genetically and will excel no matter what. Yes their training is part of the equation, but even if they put it in total reverse and go with another training program, they will still do extremely well if not still be on top. Second, what works for one doesn't work for all. This is true for CF+CFE, it is true for your training. If you guys give just anyone who wants to do well your training program, it may work for them, it may not.

Doesn't pink mean joking?

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Doesn't pink mean joking?[/reply]More like sarcasm, but it works as well for jokes. You are joking, aren't you? You don't really think that how much weight you can move for 1-20 reps matters in a race that will see more than 30,000 reps at about 3 reps per second, do you?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

err... it's self-evident, isn't it? Kinda like raising the ceiling, and the foundation will rise, right?

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Thank you ... LOL! I actually started this thread after I saw my brothers posting threads on a major league baseball forum and I commented how the replies (in both quality and quantity) were not what I was used to seeing. I then told them "watch this" and after a couple of hours, needless to say, they were impressed, very very impressed. :> Another point for triathlon over baseball.

I, too, was actually impressed to see how everyone has stayed on topic for this many posts.

err... it's self-evident, isn't it? Kinda like raising the ceiling, and the foundation will rise, right?[/reply]err...no.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Hey, how about them Mets, huh?

:-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Haha, good chatting with you guys. Good luck with whatever races you're training for.

No? .... c'mon, THINK about it. Just put aside your pre-conceived notions. Now the same thing doesn't work for everybody, but just be willing to change. Change scares people, and this specificity stuff has been done for centuries, if not millenia, with the same result. We've got people who still haven't broken the 2 hr marathon. THINK about it.... people have been running for centuries upon centuries, but they still can't run a marathon faster than 2 hr. Doesn't that sounds strange??? All they really need to do is think outside of the box. They need to raise their ceiling..... lift some weights. I mean HEAVY weights. The kind of weights that would give Schwarznegger a hernia. Not the namby pampy Guvenator, but the real Arnold, the one on roids back in the 70s. Now I bet that guy could have busted out a 1:55 for 42 km. He just didn't want to.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Got me. Ouch.

It's late on Friday, I've been writing code generator software all week, and I forgot who was posting.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

First, Brian never said in the interview that Chris McCormack can't or needs to squat 450 lbs. CFE is a supplement to CF. CrossFit is the program and the sport specific workouts become the supplement. Its not a jack of all trades master of none program. I never said people here were not doing work or that training for and competing in an IM is easy. I never doubted anyone's work ethic. Both approaches are viable and there will always be more than 1 approach. In the past I have done alot of LSD training with some success. The problem arises with the plateaus in performance. People will continue to get injured regardless of the program they are following. Many times this happens due to technique issues. Some of this comes from not having the proper instruction when learning a skill or when they are executing a skill. First, you need to have correct technique, then learn to do it faster, then learn to do it longer. This isn't always the order people use. Also, as with any gym it depends on the people who operate the gym as to the quality of the gym and what is done there. CF and CFE does not have an injury rate of more than any other program. I never said Brian has published research in peer edited journals. I noted articles that are applied in nature and were published in the CrossFit Journal which is not simply a fitness magazine. I am well aware of peer reviewed journals and used many when I wrote my thesis 4 1/2 years ago. I also used many applied research journals. There is a difference between applied and research based journals. I do not own a company or an employeed by CrossFit or CrossFit Endurance. I am CrossFit, CrossFit Endurance, and CrossFit Nutrition certified. I coach kids. Change isn't something people always like or embrace because it can involve new and different aspects or ideas. There will most likely be an adaptation phase which isn't always an easy time. Workouts probably won't be at the same level during this time and not everyone can or wants to deal with that aspect. It takes time to relearn something and create new motor patterns to incorporate the changes.

;)

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

Kaitlin,

I'm sorry, but I really can't engage you. I wasted too much time reading this darn thread and pulling Ken's chain. I just think it's rather humorous that all the arguments that have been made in favor of this approach sound strangely reminiscent of those used to defend the product of a frequent poster on this site (who shall remain nameless since he doesn't need anymore publicity). The point is, the caveats, and qualifications don't do a very good job of supporting your argument.

Good luck though.

P.S. whomever made the over/under of 200 should go out and buy a lottery ticket.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

I wasn't trying to use my background to support what I was saying. Someone had posted that i had a company and I was showing that I am not employeed by CF or CFE.

I want to see this "study."

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/Austere-Result-Brief_Aug-06.pdf

I believe this is it.

In the past I have done alot of LSD training with some success. The problem arises with the plateaus in performance.

Not sure this makes me a fitness professional, but I have a B.S. in Exercise Science, I'm a certified Athletic Trainer, Masters in Physical Therapy and a level 2 CrossFit Trainer.

I have heard this argument before..."The complex movements used in CrossFit are dangerous." Hmmm...so are you saying that only world class weightlifters should be performing complex lifts such as the Clean & Jerk and Snatch? How about this, when those world class weightlifters were first learning to do those lifts do you think their form was perfect? If their form wasn't perfect, should they have just stopped then and there? No, that's ridiculous. Now, I agree that these are complex lifts and I agree that if you do them incorrectly with a heavy enough weight or even with a moderate weight there is a risk of injury. But that doesn't mean that the "Average Joe" athlete shouldn't learn how to do them and shouldn't incorporate them into their fitness program. I certainly would encourage anyone who is interested in performing olympic lifts to get some training in performing them correctly, but like any other "complex" movement, these things can be self taught.

Let's use your same argument for another complex activity...let's say...swimming. I think we can all agree that to develop a really efficient stroke in swimming requires a lot of fine tuning and refinement of complex movement patterns. When you examine injury rates in competitive swimmers one might come to the conclusion that utilizing swimming as an exercise program for the "lay person" might be, dare we say..."dangerous" and therefore not a good idea. Since a significant percentage of triathletes are God-Awful swimmers (myself included) maybe we shouldn't be doing triathlons at all and should just stick to duathlons to avoid the complex activities. No, again, it's a ridiculous argument.

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

Caveats and qualifications as in.....


Really though,... this is it for me. I'm out.

Good luck.

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Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com

No, they won't. There are numerous examples. Actually, wait, the 2 you listed are examples that what you do does matter a lot, no matter who you are.

"...Looking good with your shirt off and going fast at IM is not the same thing. When I walk around at the practice swims in LP each year I am always amazed at how many totally ripped people there are. Even more amazed a couple days later when so few of them are faster than some kinda fat guys like me... "

Dude, when you don't have much hair left on your head, your only hope is to look better with your shirt off than on....no one really cares if you went 10:40, 11:40, 12:40 of 9:40. It's all about the six pack.

OK back to the 1000 situps per day program...not sure if this qualifies as cross fit...probably too many reps!

Thanks. It would be nice to have somebody explain the powerpoint, but as it is this seems to be a preliminary study with positive results when comparing strength based activities and how to train for them. There wasn't much explanation of methodology to illuminate the general idea of the study, and not much explanation of results and how they compare to the conclusion.

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Ignorance is bliss until they take your bliss away.

If you understand how they worked then you are being intellectually dishonest. Those calculators take your performance in one event and give you times based on your fitness for other events.

You also said:

You may not know or understand the science but there is a scientific explanation for training long distance.

Throwing out numbers is just a red herring. There is no magic number, since it will vary depending on your fitness level, what you are training for and how fast your body recovers. You will not find a quality running coach who will tell you that you will maximize your performance on approximately 25 miles a week. Unless of course you have no base fitness.

You are also incorrect in your statement about athletes. Ask any one of those athletes if they could have achieved their success on less training and I bet they will all say no. Google K. Anders Ericsson, he has a whole body of research which disputes your claims.

Name some who will say that they have improved 12 months+ with CFE and you will silence the vast majority of your doubters.

I am not trying to pick on you, and if you like CFE, keep doing it. The most important thing is that you enjoy the training and you are consistent with it. That works for you and makes it the best for you. However do not confuse that with it being the best physiological program available.

"It just so happens that I don't feel swim/bike/run long is enough. It is all going to come at a cost, and that cost will show up between the ages of 40-50yrs."

In 1969 I was swimming 8000 yds/week. I ran my first ultra marathon in 1975, and haven't stopped running since then. I turn 50 next year. So far so good..

OTOH, I do weight training and plyometrics in the off season..

You know, it's amazing how easily things written on this forum are taken out of context. If you quote somebody, you should make the quote in its entirety. I didn't say the complex movements are dangerous. I said, "I'm not a fan of CF - simply because it seems to involve alot of complex movements that are often done improperly by lay populations." I'm sorry if I offended you by saying I'm not a fan of CF. Everyone has their likes and dislikes right? From what you wrote, it seems we both agree that olympic lifts are complex lifts, and we agree that there is a risk of injury, even with moderate weight.

So what are we disagreeing on? I never said lay populations should never learn the movements. I never implied an exercise shouldn't be done since it involves "complex" movements. The original intention of my first post was to offer a different point of view as to why resistence training SHOULD be incorporated into a training regimen.




My original post....
"So have any fitness professionals chimed in yet? Or will I be the first? I'm not a fan of CF - simply because it seems to involve alot of complex movements that are often done improperly by lay populations. I've been through a few workouts, and it is a definite butt kicker. The big reason resistance training programs should be utilized by athletes, no matter what the sport, is simply due to the scientifically proven role it has in injury prevention. As triathletes, most of our movement is linear, so - we train in one plane (sometimes 2), day in day out. Our bodies adapt, and muscles start misbehaving, eventually leading to overuse symptoms, and even worse, injury. With this in mind, we can also argue that if you're able to train injury free for longer periods of time, overall performance improves. A comprehensive program put together by a certified professional that understands the demands of the sport is crucial.

The exercises Lance was pictured doing earlier are mostly strength or power based exercises; and, most likely only a snippet of his comprehensive program. Just because he's pictured doing these exercises, doesn't mean they're all he does. Do these exercises make him a faster cyclist? In the long run, they do. Outside of having phenomenal genes - the man did break his collarbone, yet is already back on his bike. If he didn't do any kind of resistance training prior to his injury - his post surgical recovery would be taking much longer. "

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"Pain is relative...You'll pass out before you die"

Good god this thread is getting out of control....

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http://www.facebook.com/ReconFoundationTeam
http://www.facebook.com/MarineReconFoundation
http://www.reconfoundation.org

Okay, I should have been a bit more specific when I started throwing around the quotation marks. I wasn't necessarily quoting you, it was a summary quote gathered from several people I have talked to or heard speak within the exercise science/strength & conditioning community. I can see where that would have been confusing. We're getting way off topic here, but I'm gonna ask anyway. If you're not overly concerned with the "danger" of complex movements, then why are you concerned about complex movements? Secondly, while CF does incorporate complex lifts, there are a plethora of workouts that involve only the simplest of movements for example 50 squats, run 400 4 rounds for time or the workout I mentioned before "Cindy" 5pull-ups, 10push-ups, 15squats As Many Rounds as Possible in 20 min. It's not all Snatches and Jerks :)

We definitely agree on one thing, "resistence training SHOULD be incorporated into a training regimen." (I got that quote right didn't I?) It just appears that we may have a slight disagreement on what that resistance training should look like.

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Dan Hollingsworth

Nobody grows old by merely living a number of years. People grow old only by deserting their ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up interest wrinkles the soul." - Douglas MacArthur

Exactly. One way of training is giving people GREAT success at triathlon. The other is giving success at overall fitness. The CFers have shown exactly zero examples of anyone racing at an 'elite' or pro level the CF/CFE way. Thats where the debate ends. One way is proven, the other is not proven at anything except for improving general fitness.

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-- Aaron Davidson

In my opinion 11:XX is pretty darn fast for a dude who deadlifts 460 pounds!

Kaitlin said his 11 hr time was when he was doing lsd, not CF.
Surely he should do another IM with CFE and be able to break it though right?

As for the canadian military "study".. I can 100% honestly say that i have NEVER in 3 years since CF took hold in my Marine unit have i seen a die hard Crossfitter score perfect on a Marine PFT(20 dead hang pullups, 100 crunches in 2 mins, 18:00 3 mile). Not once, ever.
Even my Master Guns can run a 300 still at over 40 yrs old... oh yea, he's a triathlete.
Anyone else in the Marines here seen a 300 crossfitter? I here excuses from them all the time about how that PFT isn't a good general indicator of overall fitness. It's not perfect i'll confess... but if you are unable to run a sub 18 minute 3 mile i can't imagine your overall level of cardiovascular fitness is outstanding.
It's better than nothing, but again, when it comes to seeing practical results i have seen a complete decline in overall fitness since CF became the FAD.
If it worked, i would say it worked. I would also be doing the WOD religiously and preaching in favor of CF. I still do some Crossfit-esqe workouts, as i did before i knew what CF was. I do it to add some core strength. Probably the same reason Lance was pictured doing it. We need good Core muscles to prevent injury and do reach our S/B/R peaks.

The real world results i've seen have been mediocre at best. The crossfitters i see who even have their own affiliate and are certified are not impressive in my eyes. I hear a lot of talk, see little results. It's hard to question the fitness and effectiveness of traditional triathlon training when it comes to endurance and cardiovascular health.

The CrossFit Endurance actual site was established in April of last year so it is still a relatively new program (barely a year). This is a reason why there are as of yet no "elite" or pro athletes following these methods. Or just because it isn't written about yet doesn't necessarily mean it not happening. A new system of any kind takes time to get established and have pro athletes following it.

err... it's self-evident, isn't it? Kinda like raising the ceiling, and the foundation will rise, right?

Yes, that Hatfield dude (massive squat and powerlifting guru) musta been one HELLUVA marathoner then, based on this theory.

Ahhhnold too.

Those guys all kick ass at distance racing, right?

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float , hammer , and jog

This thread is great. What is also funny is how CF claim that they invented the kettlebell training method - this has been around for a while especially in Europe and even in the United States before CF caught on. That they invented the concept of high intensity circuit training - this has been around since at least the 1980's, I remember doing workouts of as many x in 1 minute, etc, etc. The basic concept isn't what makes it bad - its the brainwashing that doing CF is the be all and end all of working out. There is a basic concept of Specificity of Training (if all you do is lift weights it isn't going to make you run faster). The complex movement in CF aren't necessarily going to get you hurt but if you have an injury you should no your restrictions before you go do it. It probably doesn't make sense of someone with Osteoarthritis or PF syndrome or a meniscus injury to be doing deep knee squat presses. Also why would I necessarily want a triathlete doing these exercises - if I want to train the sepecific movements of a triathlete this would be counterproductive. I look at crossfit as similar to the "curves" phenomenon of a couple years ago or the nautilus phenomenon before that.

OK...how about....Running 100 miles is pretty good for a dude who deadlifts 450.... Do you doubt that he could max the PFT?

Seriously, after this thread, and the HEADACHE it has given me, I can't WAIT to get out this season and kick everyone's ass...

CFE should give all their "athletes" jerseys so we know who to gun for. Seriously though, I had some respect for these guys, but after all this, that has gone down the tubes.

Claiming that "KOMA" will most likely be won by a CFE trained athlete this year?! Nevermind, you just provided some extra motivation for my LSD ride today...

CFE is not only about weightlifting. CF doesnot claim to have invented kettlebell training or high intensity training workouts. Nobody has said Kona would be won by a CFE athlete this year. It was stated in the interview that would not happen because it would take 2-3 years to transition to this training for an athlete specialist at that level.

Kaitlin,

Sorry to jump in on this one so late but I can't ignore this one. Let me start out by saying that I believe that Crossfit is a great way to make people stronger. Really good friends of mine are affiliates in CO and I am amazed almost daily by the work they do with their clients. They can take an over weight man or woman and turn them into a fitness monster in about 4 months. That being said, none of them can beat me ot my slowest tri buddies in a 5k. Not even the trainers who have been following CF for 2 years or more.

My affiliate friends and I debate what you CF people call LSD (funny how not many of you could follow me on a bike) vs. the CFE way. I have been following and reading the CFE site daily since last fall. There are some concepts that all of us could benefit from. Most age group triathletes could benefit from focusing on technique (you call it skill) and intensity IMO. As many have said in this thread before, this is nothing new.

You comment that "A new system of any kind takes time to get established and have pro athletes following it.". Are you trying to say that the elite/pro level athletes look to amateur/age group athletes for the latest and greatest in training and coaching? That is laughable. Maybe I am confused but I was under the impression that elite/pro athletes had access to cutting edge technology and training. Time to get established? How much time do you need?

I also would like to point out that I sometimes I am baffled by the people that CFE holds up as examples in their photo of the day.

Like this guy swimming, does this like good swim technigue to you? Maybe if he's doing some military side-stroke.

http://www.crossfitendurance.com/...ve.php?month=2009-03

I hate to pick on people, but since you haven't been exactly eager to post any CFE'ers tri results. I will be following these guys in 2009. If they stick with CFE.

http://www.crossfitendurance.com/...74&month=2008-10

http://results.active.com/...47230&rsID=70704

http://www.crossfitendurance.com/...84&month=2008-09

http://results.active.com/...46979&rsID=70704

These are just a couple of the many many respectable but not spectacular results from CFE triathlets in 2008. Bottom line CFE is pushing a product and using some very weak examples to sell it, IMO.

Hmmmm, did I write that?

Well, what did you have in mind?

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

Obviously his bike does not have a disc. LOL

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Because results and "cutting edge trends" are mutually exclusive.

I just find it ironic that so many of these hip and cool, training trends and nutrition regimes always start up in places with lots of wealthy people - LA, South Beach, Manhatten . . . etc They never seem to start up where the really good athletes train!!

That's all. Just making an anecdotal connection :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I hold the false belief that every soldier is like an elite navy seal - you know, can hold their breath for 5 minutes, run an ultramarathon, and climb up everest in shorts. The only marine I knew was my cousin, who was a champion kickboxer when he was in the service and could bench press 475 - and this guy is 5'10" 180. The guy defines "hard."

Anyway, back to replying...what did I have in mind? It would be interesting to take a well trained triathlete and a well trained CFE "student" and put them through a series of tests - some of which we CF specific and some of which were triathlon specific. This would show if CFE had any real bearing on triathlon performance.

THEN, take both athletes and put them through events neither would have specific preparation for...rock climbing for speed, pulling heavy sleds, 400m sprints, 1 mile run, rowing on the erg, some Gym Jones stuff, etc... This of course would only show which of the two was the better athlete, but would be an interesting experiment.

The ultimate test would be who can eat the most hot dogs at the county fair since we all know THAT is the ultimate feat of endurance.

I am game for everything but the hot dog test.

This is quick and off the cuff, so tune this up as you see fit. I live in San Diego, so I'm quoting locations near there.
1. There's a BJJ dojo right near the Del Mar racetrack, we could have Gi or no Gi "test" there since i have a membership.
2. I dont have a sled, but we can push a Jeep wrangler across the 300 meter parking lot at the base of Torrey Pines. It has a slight incline going North to south, but Its a Jeep, so its no big deal. We can Do it for time, or we can do it for reps. your choice.
3. Its warming up at Taquitz, so we could see who can redpoint Vampire in the shortest time, you bring your own rack and belay person.
4. 400 meter and mile sprints.....yeah, we can do that anywhere.
5. Gym stuff........I'm game for that too, no need to select a location since any gym will do for that.


And just to be fair (partial disclosure): I used to be "Tank" on American Gladiators, while on hiatus from the USMC. So all the things in your challenge actually sound like a SHITLOAD of fun!! I dont want you to feel like you just got suckered into anything.

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

That sounds like a sweet challenge - I think we should try to put this together to see what CFE is really about. Better yet, lets get this guy who wrote the original article to come out for the challenge - put the money where his mouth is...Hell, if I lived out west I'd be down.

Now all we need is to recruit some participants. Another thread perhaps?

absolutely!

Now let's throw in some stuff that's TRI specific too, so that its actually a "challenge" between CF and TRI.
1. we should do a swim: Let's say distance? We could start at LaJolla cove and do a 2 mile out-n-back from the cove to the shores and back.
2. we should do a run: Let's run Penasquitos Canyon, its about 6 miles each way on the main trail. We can do a lap or a number of laps.
3. and then there's the bike: A fun ride is the Out n back ride from Fletcher cove in solana beach, up to the top of Palomar and back. Its about 88 miles round trip. If you want, we could go longer and ride out to the Salton Sea after hitting Palomar; its a pretty ride.

PM me with the details!, thanks!

(edit). I dont think we need a recruitment thread. "IM DOWN", for the workout. I know I'm all "old n stuff" now, but that should just make it easier to sign up a CF practitioner

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persequetur vestra metas furiose

This is my favorite thread of all time!