Slowman, what you quoted here are USAT rules, not IM rules, which are actually as follows:
Section 2.02 OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE
(a) Assistance provided by Race Referees or Race Officials is allowed but such assistance is limited to: providing drinks, nutrition, mechanical and medical assistance, and other necessary assistance (as may be provided by the Event Director or Head Referee). Athletes competing in the same Race may assist each other with incidental items such as, but not restricted to: nutrition, and drinks after an aid station and pumps, tires, inner tubes, and puncture repair kits; and
(b) Athletes may not provide any item of equipment to an athlete competing in the same Race if it results in the donor athlete being unable to continue his/her own Race. Such equipment includes but is not restricted to: shoes, complete bicycle, frame, wheels, or helmet. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes.

Section 2.01 states that athletes must
(a) practice good sportsmanship at all times
(h) compete without receiving assistance from other parties (other than from Race Referees, Race Officials, and other athletes in accordance with Section 2.02
(j) not gain or attempt to gain any unfair advantage from any external vehicle or object.

So my take on Lionel's drafting off Chabrot is this:
He attempted to gain an unfair advantage, but since Chabrot was not an external vehicle or object, I think the only rule he may have violated is 2.01 (a), for which neither Section 2.01 nor Article III. PENALTIES specifies the penalty. The Appendix, however, specifies for unsportsmanlike behaviour a DSQ and potential suspension.
Had he gained an unfair advantage from an external vehicle (and violated 2.01 (j)), then the rule doesn't even specify the penalty for that (unlike 2.01 (i), (k) or (l)), such that in accordance with 3.01(f) the penalty would have been up to the referee's discrection.

In any case I greatly appreciate Lionel's statement here on ST expressing regret for his decision, and I think this was very sportsmanlike such that for me the case is closed.

However, Lionel as well as every other athlete competing, was in violation of rule 2.01 (c), according to which each athlete must
know, understand, and follow all Competition Rules, as stated herein, in the Event-specific Athlete Information Guide, and at the Event-specific athlete briefings.

It would be good for the sport of triathlon to come up with a set of proper, consistent and well thought through rules. Current rule books (whether IM, ITU, USAT or other national federations) are full of self-contradictions, unclear wordings, unnecessary or just plain non-sensical rules. These rules could be split into two parts, a slim body of general rules which apply to the sport of triathlon, and then some additional rules specific to each event.

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Achim Traut

 ups for some reason did not see the above post


http://www.triathlon.org/...es_december20141.pdf

page 7 2.2

Outside assistance:
a.)
The assistance provided by event personnel or Technical
Officials is allowed but is
limited to
providing
drinks, nutrition, mechanical and medical assista
nce, upon the
approval of the Technical Delegate or Race Referee
. Athletes competing in the
same race may assist each other with incidental items such as
,
but not restricted
to,
nutrition and drinks after a water station and pumps, tubular tires, inner tubes
and puncture repair kits
;
b.)
Athletes may not provide any item of equipment to an athlete competing in the
same race which results in the donor athlete bei
ng unable to continue with their
own race. This includes but is not restricted to shoes, complete bicycle, frame,
wheels and helmet. The penalty for this will be disqualification of both athletes

Yes, I've extended that invite already.

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@rhyspencer

overall the problem in this thread is we have real issues like drafting and drugs
And focus on the " miniscule" stuff.


if we discuss outside assistance i would suggest we find a way to make it real world ( great Solomon that you would have given the guy a cartridge despite its against the current rules as this should be allowed as the athelte already has lost time - in this case a puncture -


with the drafting incident in the water from my understanding there is nothing illegal
and i think we are really in very difficult terrain when we talk aobut sportsmanship here

the current drafting rules provide assistance to the rider the current, swim rules provide assistance and both rules in a way punish the fastest in each sport.
so we really have an problem when we try to claim this is an unassited sport .
not even talking about power meter . That technically speaking are a pacing guide.

Am trying to understand the issue now.

The rules state if you have a question, you ask the head official. If they say something is okay, it is legal.
They asked, the HO said it was legal, and they did it.

So, what is the issue? Oh I know, it is not what the rules say, it is what folks think the rules should say. :)

---

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So what about two athletes running together and supporting each in the late miles of an Ironman marathon? What if they decided to finish together since they bonded over the last X number of miles? Is that against the rules?

Bob

Let's say your strategy had succeeded and Lionel benefited by a few minutes in the swim from having a domestique. And after his superb, domestique-assisted swim, went on to uber-bike and uber-run and came home World Champion. How do you think his victory would have been received given the ostensibly legal but very dodgy tactic of hiring a swim domestique? My opinion is that this is not the way for Lionel to keep/grow his cult fanbase nor to earn respect from his pro peers. It all seems very ill-advised to me.

Re: Jonnyo swim group. last spring I was 1:23 per 100 in pool off on 1:40....push my luck I could do 10 like that on 1:30. Summer in the lake and came back pool...1:18s with 10sec Gap not 5 on swimmer ahead.

Now I've only done 3 swims since IM Wales so that's dropping the wrong direction now! But a factoid that hard open water group sets chasing faster athletes work.

Lionel can chase Sean Bechtel up there with Barrie and should get on that fast or spend a summer block here IMO.

As for this thread....Jesus ST needs to get over itself. Who cares? They asked head ref & he said fine. And frankly this was happening far more than people think in years gone by. . I mean Beijing Canada picked Colin Jenkins over Brent McMahon for this EXACT reason.

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@rhyspencer

This mistake was trying it in the first place. It was a desperate strategy and was likely never going to work. Lionel has very little experience drafting and Matt probably has no experience aiding a (much) slower swimmer. Both are hard to do, especially when experience is limited.

Lionel is a world class athlete. He is either satisfied being a mediocre swimmer (doubt it) or has not been given the tools and instruction to succeed as a swimmer. The suggestions that this swim should be graded on a curve are poor attempts to veil the absolute lack of improvement in the past 14 months in Lionel's swim. I would like to know how he is being guided through this process. I cannot believe that Mike McWha would have given a stamp of approval to this...

If it worked out I would have saluted both the athlete and coach for choosing an appropriate strategy that helped their race and was within the rules. Name one sport in the world that a coach wouldn't try to maximize the outcome as long as it is within the rules?

"So what about two athletes running together and supporting each in the late miles of an Ironman marathon?"

asked and answered. see "slowman doctrine."

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Slowman, what you quoted here are USAT rules, not IM rules"

these rules are cumulative, not either/or, unless ironman got specific permission from USAT to have a USAT rule not apply. example: not all helmets have to be CPSC-certified in kona. that's a specific rule abatement.

i've sent a note off to jimmy about this. you might be right that the USAT rule is not applicable, but my guess is that it is applicable, and ironman's rules are lopped on top, as a second rule that must be followed as well.

in any case, we'll see what he says. whatever the interpretation is will be how it is the rules work going forward.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

clearly Andreas is sabotaging Sebastian by adding weight in the form of water to Sebby's suit and water in the shoes causing blisters, both of which caused him to slow down and get 8th.

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Where does that leave Chrissie W. and Rebeka Keat? Given that Rebeka donated two cartridges to help out when CW flatted, wouldn't one or both of them be in violation of the rule as it's written here?

I'm also not sure that the rule has "always" been the way it's phrased in 3.4.d... I'm going off memory, but at my first couple of IM races (late 90's?), I had thought that a distinction was drawn between spectators and competitors. If not, where does the verbal agreement between Rukosuev and Bernhadt during IMF 2001 fall?

Alec Rukosuev and Olivier Bernhard, both feared runners, exited their bikes together and commenced pursuit after eventual Ironman Florida champ Jamie Cleveland. After six miles of back-and-forth racing they settled into a pace, each using the other's energy.

Rukosuev recounts a philosophical conversation he was having with himself at mile-15. "Sport is sometimes unfair." said Rukosuev, "Especially an Ironman. You're not racing, but surviving. It occured to me right then that it would be, in a way, a shame to spend so much time working alongside a fellow competitor, with so much shared energy, only to have one prevail in a finishing sprint. That's what I was thinking."

It was almost precisely at that moment that Bernhardt -- a two-time winner of Ironman Switzerland -- looked over and asked, "Do you want to tie?"

"On other occasions I'd perhaps have said no." recalled Rukosuev, "But in that frame of mind I accepted. We shook hands, right there on the road. We agreed that whatever happened, win or lose, we'd do it together."

They were two-minutes behind Cleveland at that point. The pace picked up. At mile-19 they were one-minute behind, or a little less. The Swiss racer asked Rukosuev how he was feeling. "Great, let's go get him." Shortly afterward Bernhard cramped. He stopped dead in the road.

"I waited for him," said Rukosuev. "We had a deal. We shook. I waited while he stretched. Then we continued on, now two-minutes down. I still thought we could catch Jamie. Then Bernhard stopped again. I waited again. The lead was now four-minutes as we stood on the road. Finally I told him we can't wait any longer. I asked him if I could go on."

Rukosuev continued on to a second-place finish. Bernhard never made it past mile-22. There is no sense of what might have been in Rukosuev's voice, and he is gracious in his praise of Cleveland. Bernhard apologized to Rukosuev after the race, but the Russian immigrant -- awaiting his American citizenship -- seems to shake it off. "He would have waited for me." -- DE

"Where does that leave Chrissie W. and Rebeka Keat?"

Slowman Doctrine. (read thread)

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The rules cannot be cumulative since they contradict each other. In any case, despite our efforts to read and understand the rules the bottom line is the following:

• None of us is quite sure which rules are appliccable.
• Even if we knew which rules apply, we still wouldn't be sure what exactly each rule is supposed to mean.

Frankly, triathlon should be a fairly simple sport, but the mess that all existing rules create is just crazy.

---

Achim Traut

Can someone enlighten me on Lionel's Pool times vs Open water times? I mean, I consider myself to be a huge Fan/Supporter of Lionel, but to me it appears as though his pool times are not nearly fast enough either. Thus, he might be well served to continue to work/develop that technique along with Open Water skills.

I posed the question earlier on Cost / Logistics of jumping in with the likes of Gary Hall Sr, Greg Troy, David Durden, Heck Bob Bowman for crying out loud... then tack on Gerry Rodrigues or someone to help with the open water skills. I fully understand that these guy's are insanely busy and you just don't walk off the street and hop in the pool with these guy's, but Lionel does have a resume and good connections with Barrie et al.

You finish 4th at the 70.3 World's, you are knocking on the door of the Ironman World Championships if you could put together a decent swim. Wouldn't you go right to the top?? Time to re-focus and get the swim figured out or he never wins Kona.

You're based out of Ontario, right? No need to travel far to get world class help with the swim. Go talk to Byron MacDonald at UofT. The guy knows more about swimming than this entire forum combined. He might not have a spot for you, but he'll have some ideas on who might be a good fit.

---

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"None of us is quite sure which rules are applicable."

when as part of my race preparation i arrange in advance with somebody to help me, pull me, pace me - said person abandoning his own race ambitions to help pull me to a faster finish - he and i are conspiring to break the rules, both the letter and the spirit, both sets of rules, all sets of rules.

there is nothing about this that isn't, or shouldn't be, clear. lionel, to his credit, understood this originally, got talked into something and now in retrospect, with the help of some additional voices, is listening to his original gut instinct.

whether ironman also interprets this the way i do (and lionel apparently now does) remains to be seen.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For the last 3 coaches it would be a disruption both ways. Off the top of my head the only elite swim coach I think that would work with him is Paul Yetter. Because I think he likes doing 1 on 1 work.

The week before my 8th birthday in 1984 I was at a summer league swim meet when I discovered that I actually have some talent for the sport. Me and the best 8 year old from the other team handily beat all the other 7-8 year olds at that meet. That other 8 year old was... David Durden!

True enough!! It sounds like he has the background to pull something like this off and he is right under Lionel's nose. Which I'm sure would cut down on costs.

However, if you want to beat the likes of Frodeno / Gomez and eventually the Brownlee's you better not let $$ dictate your swim instructor. Get the best right now!!! It won't get any easier with age and that talent coming behind you.

Thank you Coach and Lionel. You both have my respect.

Well, cost is always a consideration, but Byron is amongst the best, and more importantly, he's accessible and knows everyone in Ontario swimming who is worth knowing. IMO, connecting with one of the "supercoaches" is near worthless for what Lionel needs, which aren't the quick fixes (he's way past that level) and aren't the tiny adjustments that matter in the pool that might gain a half second. I'd go to those guys if I was at a pretty high level, but plateaued, then it might be really useful.

Consistency is key. Better to get in with someone who has the skill and knowledge, but can also be there every day / week / month....

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Glad to see some of these names being tossed out!! Paul Yetter etc. Which is kinda where I was going with my comment and choices. Just trying to get a feel for why someone would not seek out some of these Coaches when you are so close to the top in the other 2 disciplines. I for sure don't know the answer but many top level swimmers / coaches on ST might :)


Would love to hear Barrie's thoughts on it as well. :)

Since Chrabot was bascially cooked from his IMChoo performance two weeks' prior, who's to say his "own race ambition" wasn't to pull Lionel through the swim and collect a chunk of his prize money. I get all this "spirit of the sport" stuff, but top level sport is made from folks pushing the envelope. I'm sure the first guy to show up with aerobars or hang in the "legal distance" draft pack all drew some hate from their competitors. Successful tactics to get an edge that work (and this one didn't) will either be outlawed as unfair or copied. In the meantime, game on.