Playing devils advocate, but if this is such a hard and fast rule why is it not in the athlete guides, and where is the penalty clearly defined? For example you know what a drafting penalty will be.
I did a key word search of the athlete guide for the last race I did, Los Cabos 2015, drafting comes up 16 times, pacing, 0. If this is a rule, it should be known.

"Illegal and immoral". This is part of why triathlon #s have stagnated and why running is booming. This moral posturing and preaching "individuality" of the event. Prepping to Go on a twitch hunt over an AG participant that is trying to win some menial award

there are a number of rulesets. it is defined. it's a variable time penalty in USAT's rules, and in ironman's athlete guide, and it's a DQ in ironman's rules for pros. if i remember right.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ok, let me rephrase it. What specific actions do you need to see to consider someone pacing/being paced as opposed to just following/ keeping up with someone (i.e. a competitor) in the race?

Specifically differentiate between pushing yourself to keep up with someone normally faster than you vs being paced?

A Kona slot is not a "menial award" to someone who has worked for years to get there by learning to pace themselves as the rules state.

Slowman wrote:

there are a number of rulesets. it is defined. it's a variable time penalty in USAT's rules, and in ironman's athlete guide, and it's a DQ in ironman's rules for pros. if i remember right.

I'm sure it is somewhere, and it should be a rule, but I can't find it in the Santa Cruz 70.3 or Los Cabos athlete guide. The 2015 Ironman competition rules also doesnt mention it, did a key word search for pacing and pace and nothing that mentions it, see here: http://www.ironman.com/~/media/e573751ff47e4f758a28565a453f79c0.ashx

"What specific actions do you need to see to consider someone pacing/being paced as opposed to just following/ keeping up with someone (i.e. a competitor) in the race?"

here are a few random ideas on this:

1. when you see an abrupt change of pace occurring at a moment when someone arrives, and you remain with that person through his or her changes of pace, and we find out afterward that it's your sig other.

2. when you keep pace with someone who is very obviously very much slower than you are based on your historic performances, and your pace adjusts to the slower person's pace.

3. when one of the above 2 cases occurs in multiple races, and you routinely end up in the same proximity with the person you're suspected of pacing or accompanying.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Should they also dq the bop that are doing it with friends and the stragglers coming in at 17h surrounded by a pack of cheerleaders

"I'm sure it is somewhere, and it should be a rule, but I can't find it in the Santa Cruz 70.3 or Los Cabos athlete guide."

all these guides and rules do mention it, specifically under unauthorized assistance. this is more explicitly spelled out, as i understand it, in the rules for pros and you wouldn't automatically find these in your athlete guide.

mind, other than in los cabos, ironman's rules are supplemental to (in most cases) USAT's rules. only in certain cases do ironman's rules supplant and replace USAT's rules.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Should they also dq the bop that are doing it with friends and the stragglers coming in at 17h surrounded by a pack of cheerleaders"

asked and answered.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I stand corrected, found it, although that last sentence may confuse the matter.

This is an individual endurance event.
Teamwork as a result of outside assistance,
which provides an advantage
over single competitors, is not
allowed. Individual support vehicles or
non-athlete escort runners will result
in disqualification. A non-athlete
escort runner includes athletes who
have withdrawn from the race, have
been disqualified or have finished
the race. Supporters of any type may

NOT bike, drive, or run alongside
the athlete, may not pass food or
other items to athlete and should
stay completely clear of all athletes
to avoid the disqualification of the
athlete. It is incumbent upon each
athlete to immediately reject any
attempt to assist, follow, or escort.
It IS permissible for an athlete who
is still competing to run with other
athletes who are still competing.

Clearly you aren't detecting it, because my implication was that people are cranky. You know...tapering makes you cranky? Cranky people don't see jokes? You are demonstrating my point. Go eat some carbs or get some caffeine or a hug or something. That joke was a gimme....just like this thread.

I am a HUGE advocate of adding a 3-meter running rule to the run portion to ensure nobody is getting an unfair advantage. We will also have to put in a "no talking" rule so runners don't try talking at the 15 mile mark and create packs.

I caught your sarcasm in the post. I just didn't acknowledge it

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I guess I should appologize...I figured this was a troll post as it seemed really silly. Just because of my mood, I saw all of the responses as borderline.

...It came across as "Should I tie my competitors shoes together?"

I can see the issue, and I see some people blatently wanting to sabotage the spirit of competition with it.

I also come from the school that they should take away the "No drafting" rules altogether because they add so much confusion and a spirit during the competition to "edge" and circumvent the rule altogether.

In order to make pacing an unfair advantage, you would have to go to even more ridiculous lengths to do something about it. That is why I feel that "No drafting" rules are silly.

So Sorry for being so snarky. My post wasn't supposed to appear as a direct response to you. There is a lot of tongue-in-cheek in here. I saw it as tounge-in-cheek, but I can see how it could come across as supporting stupid people.

I probably shouldn't have come in here.

I just wanted to reprint this, because it almost perfectly captures the argument that we have been having in here, on and off, for the last month.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Yep. Luckily I only see this on ST, and not at any races I have ever done.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If I missed Kona by one slot to somebody that had a spouse or friend pacing them I would be absolutely furious. That's two against one and total bullshit.

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----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

If I accept your premise that Tri has stagnated relative to running (don't know how you measure that and am not interested in arguing that point here), the reasonable explanation would be that there are much higher barriers to entry than running. It is much more expensive and more difficult, takes more time and skill to prepare, etc. I have a hard time believing it is because of cultural differences in the degree of purity that adherents expect. Have you been over to Let'sRun recently? This group is extremely forgiving and accepting compared to that crew. I say all this as someone who considers himself primarily a runner, races his bikes sometimes (poorly), and used to force himself to swim so he could race a couple of tri's. I am far from a lifelong triathlon purist. I just happen to think that the intent of the rule in question is very clear and easy to understand (even if difficult to enforce).

More importantly, complaining about triathletes "preaching individuality of the event" seems to imply that you do not think non-draft triathlon is an individual event. Is that correct?

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Settle down.......Look, I'm not disagreeing and I am sure as hell not supporting the OP....but the way you phrased it as "an individual event" leaves room for the exact interpretation I just presented to you. hence the reason I asked for clarification.

If I am on someone's feet, it is no longer "an individual" effort....your terminology.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I guess you didn't expect so many responses, opinions and arguments about your first post? Don't worry, you are now famous in ST ;)

PS: pink font here means it's a joke or tongue in cheek. Now, I may be shot down for incorrect representation of ST etiquette...

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Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
http://www.swimrunfrance.fr
http://www.worldofswimrun.com

Maybe, if she would just give us her and her husband names and what races they plan on doing, we can all just email Ironman ahead of time. When the RD shows up at T1 and DQ them both before the Ironman or 70.3 even starts it will send a message to all you are or have done this in the past.

This is were a published list of reason for DQ and/or violation would be nice. All RD should post a DQ or list of violation along with finish times to put in athletes heads what is right or wrong not just what is legal or illegal.

What is right and what is wrong. I think that is the biggest problem here. My old boss once told us if you have to ask a question or think about something twice the old are it is wrong.

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http://www.toughmantri.com

https://robinsonsstrengthandendurancecoaching.wordpress.com/

My old boss said do not ask the question, you might not like the answer. Always better to ask for forgiveness.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You could have asked "Can my husband pace me to a Boston Marathon Qualifying time?" . There would
be no popcorn involved.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.