BryanD wrote:
Oh wow. You and h20fun must have the same moral compass. So since everyone else is doing it, you must think it's ok to cheat as well right?Dude. You owe me a new laptop. There's now coffee all over my keyboard and screen.
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Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [BryanD]
[ In reply to ]
Dude. You owe me a new laptop. There's now coffee all over my keyboard and screen.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [logella]
[ In reply to ]
logella wrote:
BryanD wrote:
Oh wow. You and h20fun must have the same moral compass. So since everyone else is doing it, you must think it's ok to cheat as well right?Dude. You owe me a new laptop. There's now coffee all over my keyboard and screen.
hahaha!
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Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
h2ofun wrote:
Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.Actually, she can't. If you want the letter of the rule, Ironman prohibits pacing.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [h2ofun]
[ In reply to ]
h2ofun wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
FastKitty wrote:
I am on the bubble for a KQ and have been on the podium in my last 3 Ironman races. My husband is mush faster and could easily pace me to the needed time. If we register for the same race, can he legally pace me on the bike (I would stay out of his draft zone) and run? Can I get DQ'd for doing this?Hi there Kitty, welcome to the forum. I'll try to answer your question constructively: what you suggest may not be against the letter of the rule but it is certainly against the spirit of the rule. This is meant to be an individual sport. I certainly wouldn't use "others are doing it" as justification.
Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.
No. Just like your YouTube videos? You must be a seriously unethical person. I knew you would come here and post exactly what you posted. Bring on the arguments because I know it's coming. Points for keywords such as Velotron, 10 speed bikes, copyright infrignment, YouTube videos, CompuTrainer, and the "why does it matter" quote.
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
it's an explicit rule. unauthorized assistance. it formally bans pacing. implicit in this is the difference between two people running alongside each other who are both in the heat of battle, versus one person not really in the heat of battle, simply in the race for the purpose of helping another to a high place. the pro rules take what is already in the rules and further amplifies it. further explains it. but it's in the rules, has always been in the rules, and triathlon's original generation of racers never faced the need to explain what unfair looks like. today we need to further codify unfair because a significant subset of the current generation of triathletes doesn't know unfair on its face, and has to have it explained.
Prove it. How can you get inside someone's body on race day and know they are holding back solely to pace someone or perhaps they are in pain, having a bad day, know they missed their expectation and have just thrown in the towel. Is it against the rules to not race to your full potential? Even if they go that route, how can you prove it? Surely you don't expect even pro's to put up top performances every time?
This is in inherently poor rule that has very limited chance (except perhaps under blatant circumstances) of being remotely proven.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [timbasile]
[ In reply to ]
timbasile wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.Actually, she can't. If you want the letter of the rule, Ironman prohibits pacing.
That's correct and I feel like I need to clarify things since I might've derailed the discussion with the "spirit of" comment.
- Ironman and USAT forbid pacing (outside assistance): it's explicit. That's the rule. Their ability to enforce it is an entirely different issue.
- Per Dan's interpretation of the rules (see the Lionel Sander's swim thread) having the OP's husband who is "much faster" pace her would constitute him "abandoning his own ambition" at which point his pacing would be considered outside assistance.
Is what the OP suggesting against the rules? From what I've read, absolutely. Would she get caught? Unlikely. Would she be justified in doing it because she's been so close and "others are doing it"? If she's willing to venture down that moral dark alley she might as well dope because she's unlikely to get caught and others are doing it.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Big Turkey]
[ In reply to ]
Big Turkey wrote:
BryanD wrote:
You don't seem to understand the rules on pacing and unauthorized assistance. What you did in your race is perfectly legal because no one specifically had a plan to mess up their own race for the benefit of another. If you and I have an agreement that I will pace you because I am faster than you, that is unauthorized assistance and is also unethical.
Finding a group of people on the bike and the run that are similar power output and run speeds and using them for pacing is not unauthorized assistance.
Bryan,
I understand your POV, and in some circles, I might even argue on your side of the room. But, I can also see Kitty's side, and lately have a hard time with the "holy rollers", and 'though shall not" types that seem to be dominating this, and other online forums.
WTC has made this a pay to play sport. If our girl (Kitty), and her man want to double down the registration fee and the training that goes with it, then I have no beef with their intents or execution. Its good for the growth of the sport, right!!?!?
You may not have a beef, but there is a rule that says that this is a violation.
If you are an advocate for this rule to be changed because you think that it is silly, fine. However, that does not dismiss the rule.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [timbasile]
[ In reply to ]
timbasile wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.Actually, she can't. If you want the letter of the rule, Ironman prohibits pacing.
Baloney. Next thing you know, I won't be able to upload copyrighted material on YouTube.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [mcmetal]
[ In reply to ]
I think you're missing the point. So F**k whether the rule can be enforced or not.
Long distance triathlon is an individual endeavour, where you race your competition, throughout the event you can tactically and strategically adapt to changing circumstances to deliver the best result you can on the day.
Set aside whether its a smart rule, stupid rule, or even if the rule exists at all. If you are paced in the event, is it any longer an Individual event? No, it has become a team event.
So, knock yourselves out, all those that are considering it, doing it, might do it, have done it, its fine and you can rationalise it anyway you want, but if you Kona Q'd, you didn't do it on your own, and if you beat someone to qualify by a margin that you otherwise would not have had had it not been for your team mate you f**king cheated. It might not be provable but "you did a Julie" and you can rationalise your performance in much the same way that she did, you can delude yourself in to thinking you played within the rules, but collect your medals, take your slot but know you cheated.
Long distance triathlon is an individual endeavour, where you race your competition, throughout the event you can tactically and strategically adapt to changing circumstances to deliver the best result you can on the day.
Set aside whether its a smart rule, stupid rule, or even if the rule exists at all. If you are paced in the event, is it any longer an Individual event? No, it has become a team event.
So, knock yourselves out, all those that are considering it, doing it, might do it, have done it, its fine and you can rationalise it anyway you want, but if you Kona Q'd, you didn't do it on your own, and if you beat someone to qualify by a margin that you otherwise would not have had had it not been for your team mate you f**king cheated. It might not be provable but "you did a Julie" and you can rationalise your performance in much the same way that she did, you can delude yourself in to thinking you played within the rules, but collect your medals, take your slot but know you cheated.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [NJSteve]
[ In reply to ]
NJSteve wrote:
timbasile wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.Actually, she can't. If you want the letter of the rule, Ironman prohibits pacing.
Baloney. Next thing you know, I won't be able to upload copyrighted material on YouTube.
Big difference. Copyrighted material is well defined. Pacing, while it can be easily described is not. If you really want to get rid of pacing then you need to run it like a time trial and have everyone in isolation. Once you start to intermix participants there it's inherently unenforceable.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Fix]
[ In reply to ]
On the run, I have never heard about somebody paced by another competitor (not an external person) and being penalised. How do you prove it? Who has never latched on somebody who ran just a touch faster that you would and increase your pace this way?//
Since you have never heard of it, it doesn't happen? I believe there are several stories and race coverage articles in the archives that point out this exact thing happening. I know because I covered a pretty big race where a brother dropped back to pace his sister in the run, and since it was a brutal headwind, also to give here a nice draft. Some husband and wife teams who also got busted for this, and had to shut down the practice.
And to the OP, yes it is illegal and immoral. If you are a KQ bubble person, then there are plenty of people around you to pace off of. You don't need your own personal illegal pacer, just get faster and use the dozens on the course that would otherwise be around you. And yes, you likely would not get caught, except for the fact that you just came on here and blabbed it to the whole world. You may think you are anonymous, but believe me, their are people here who might already know who you are, or at least have narrowed it down to a few possibilities. Next step would to just do a search on husbands and wives in the same race with a KQ, and that is a very small number. You wouldn't get away with it now, so just play nice and train either harder or smarter..
Since you have never heard of it, it doesn't happen? I believe there are several stories and race coverage articles in the archives that point out this exact thing happening. I know because I covered a pretty big race where a brother dropped back to pace his sister in the run, and since it was a brutal headwind, also to give here a nice draft. Some husband and wife teams who also got busted for this, and had to shut down the practice.
And to the OP, yes it is illegal and immoral. If you are a KQ bubble person, then there are plenty of people around you to pace off of. You don't need your own personal illegal pacer, just get faster and use the dozens on the course that would otherwise be around you. And yes, you likely would not get caught, except for the fact that you just came on here and blabbed it to the whole world. You may think you are anonymous, but believe me, their are people here who might already know who you are, or at least have narrowed it down to a few possibilities. Next step would to just do a search on husbands and wives in the same race with a KQ, and that is a very small number. You wouldn't get away with it now, so just play nice and train either harder or smarter..
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [FastKitty]
[ In reply to ]
change your wording to "my husband and I train with each other, push each other and enjoy each others company for grueling 12 hours of a triathlon" and you'll be just one of the many many who do it all the time.
Seriously, other than public shaming of pro triathletes, has this ever been enforced?
Seriously, other than public shaming of pro triathletes, has this ever been enforced?
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [monty]
[ In reply to ]
nothing like providing advanced notice of a possible twitch hunt, there'd be forensic photo analysis, the timing guy is here, on the last letsrun one I think they do a photo time-lapse of the event - its game over for this plan..........
exhibit A - JM - there were white papers written about her............
exhibit A - JM - there were white papers written about her............
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [mcmetal]
[ In reply to ]
mcmetal wrote:
NJSteve wrote:
timbasile wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.Actually, she can't. If you want the letter of the rule, Ironman prohibits pacing.
Baloney. Next thing you know, I won't be able to upload copyrighted material on YouTube.
Big difference. Copyrighted material is well defined. Pacing, while it can be easily described is not. If you really want to get rid of pacing then you need to run it like a time trial and have everyone in isolation. Once you start to intermix participants there it's inherently unenforceable.
Knew I should have used pink font.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Andrewmc]
[ In reply to ]
Andrewmc wrote:
I think you're missing the point. So F**k whether the rule can be enforced or not. Long distance triathlon is an individual endeavour, where you race your competition, throughout the event you can tactically and strategically adapt to changing circumstances to deliver the best result you can on the day.
Set aside whether its a smart rule, stupid rule, or even if the rule exists at all. If you are paced in the event, is it any longer an Individual event? No, it has become a team event.
So, knock yourselves out, all those that are considering it, doing it, might do it, have done it, its fine and you can rationalise it anyway you want, but if you Kona Q'd, you didn't do it on your own, and if you beat someone to qualify by a margin that you otherwise would not have had had it not been for your team mate you f**king cheated. It might not be provable but "you did a Julie" and you can rationalise your performance in much the same way that she did, you can delude yourself in to thinking you played within the rules, but collect your medals, take your slot but know you cheated.
So, in your opinion, if a faster swimmer comes by me and I get on his feet I have somehow cheated?
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Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Power13]
[ In reply to ]
So, in your opinion, if a faster swimmer comes by me and I get on his feet I have somehow cheated? //
Is it your spouse, best friend, or someone you know who you made arrangements with prior to the race to pace you, and you only? Yes you cheated..
Did you just jump on someones feet that came by and have no idea who it is, and no prior arrangement for this? No you didn't cheat..
Clear things up for you?
Is it your spouse, best friend, or someone you know who you made arrangements with prior to the race to pace you, and you only? Yes you cheated..
Did you just jump on someones feet that came by and have no idea who it is, and no prior arrangement for this? No you didn't cheat..
Clear things up for you?
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Power13]
[ In reply to ]
Power13 wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
I think you're missing the point. So F**k whether the rule can be enforced or not. Long distance triathlon is an individual endeavour, where you race your competition, throughout the event you can tactically and strategically adapt to changing circumstances to deliver the best result you can on the day.
Set aside whether its a smart rule, stupid rule, or even if the rule exists at all. If you are paced in the event, is it any longer an Individual event? No, it has become a team event.
So, knock yourselves out, all those that are considering it, doing it, might do it, have done it, its fine and you can rationalise it anyway you want, but if you Kona Q'd, you didn't do it on your own, and if you beat someone to qualify by a margin that you otherwise would not have had had it not been for your team mate you f**king cheated. It might not be provable but "you did a Julie" and you can rationalise your performance in much the same way that she did, you can delude yourself in to thinking you played within the rules, but collect your medals, take your slot but know you cheated.
So, in your opinion, if a faster swimmer comes by me and I get on his feet I have somehow cheated?
Drafting in the swim is not against the rules. Pacing is explicitly against the rules as "outside assistance".
You can argue that there might need to be a actual (and impossible to prove) "intent" to provide pacing assistance before it gets to being against the rules.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Power13]
[ In reply to ]
Power13 wrote:
So, in your opinion, if a faster swimmer comes by me and I get on his feet I have somehow cheated?
Please re-read the thread. That example is not what this is about
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Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [noofus]
[ In reply to ]
You can argue that there might need to be a actual (and impossible to prove) "intent" to provide pacing assistance before it gets to being against the rules. //
Why do you say impossible to prove when there have been numerous examples of it in past races? It might be hard to know during an event, however I noticed it in one race and it was reported live, just as the Lionel Sanders episode was on Ironman live. Now it is hard to do anything about it at the time, I give you that, but it has been proven over and over again after the fact. Just like you cannot catch someone on drugs during an event, it has to come after the race has happened.
And through this sleuthing, it has been stopped in its tracks by many people that employed this strategy, and also deterred many from even trying it..
Why do you say impossible to prove when there have been numerous examples of it in past races? It might be hard to know during an event, however I noticed it in one race and it was reported live, just as the Lionel Sanders episode was on Ironman live. Now it is hard to do anything about it at the time, I give you that, but it has been proven over and over again after the fact. Just like you cannot catch someone on drugs during an event, it has to come after the race has happened.
And through this sleuthing, it has been stopped in its tracks by many people that employed this strategy, and also deterred many from even trying it..
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [monty]
[ In reply to ]
I just don't understand why someone can't race their own race. If you need pacing to Kona qualify, then you don't deserve to go to Kona. How about working on becoming a faster athlete then cheating your way there
Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [monty]
[ In reply to ]
monty wrote:
You can argue that there might need to be a actual (and impossible to prove) "intent" to provide pacing assistance before it gets to being against the rules. // Why do you say impossible to prove when there have been numerous examples of it in past races? It might be hard to know during an event, however I noticed it in one race and it was reported live, just as the Lionel Sanders episode was on Ironman live. Now it is hard to do anything about it at the time, I give you that, but it has been proven over and over again after the fact. Just like you cannot catch someone on drugs during an event, it has to come after the race has happened.
And through this sleuthing, it has been stopped in its tracks by many people that employed this strategy, and also deterred many from even trying it..
It is easy to prove someone was using a pacer. It is impossible to prove the intent, unless you somehow find an email exchange paper trail saying they were planning it. Believe me, I am fully in the camp that says this is straight-up cheating and against the rules. Proving it is a different story, although sportstats certainly doesn't need "court of law" level of proof to do something about it.
It wouldn't be illegal for someone to follow the same person around all day if the person being followed didn't know about it ahead of time. I am saying it is nearly impossible to prove the actual intention of pacing vs the very unlikely scenario that two people just raced together all day.
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [Power13]
[ In reply to ]
you're not paying attention are you? see previous responses, but tactics and strategy allow you to sit on someones feet, run on their heels or ride behind them at a legal distance, what the rules don't allow you to do is sit with hubby on the beach and do all of that behind him to a Kona slot.......
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [mcmetal]
[ In reply to ]
"Prove it."
intent and malice are states of mind and they're used all day long in criminal and civil courts. they are routinely proved. only in triathlon do we somehow view state-of-mind as unprovable. except when we decide to. such as ironman's rule that allows suspension of an athlete for "intentional course cutting." how do you prove intent? i don't know, but ironman includes intent in its rules in this case.
over the weekend jim harbaugh tried something and failed to get away with it. michigan was penalized for "substitution with intent to deceive." how do you prove state of mind? the NCAA doesn't really care whether you consider this a problem. they invest in their officials the right to determine intent. only in triathlon do we place ourselves in this straight jacket.
certainly i think the bar ought to be high. only when it's a clear case. so, male gets out of the water, pedals at 14mph. suddenly he starts pedaling at 22mph. magically, his wife appears at that moment. i have no problem flagging that.
i also think discretion ought to be used. same example above, except it's not 14mph and 22mph, it's husband and wife striding along, 3 or 4 hours behind the last podium spot in each of their age groups. no penalty.
what's the difference? judgment. i believe in judgment. reasonableness. discretion. i believe officials, backed up by a head ref who can oversee, and cast a second set of eyes, on such a call, can be trusted to make the correct call the great majority of the time.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
intent and malice are states of mind and they're used all day long in criminal and civil courts. they are routinely proved. only in triathlon do we somehow view state-of-mind as unprovable. except when we decide to. such as ironman's rule that allows suspension of an athlete for "intentional course cutting." how do you prove intent? i don't know, but ironman includes intent in its rules in this case.
over the weekend jim harbaugh tried something and failed to get away with it. michigan was penalized for "substitution with intent to deceive." how do you prove state of mind? the NCAA doesn't really care whether you consider this a problem. they invest in their officials the right to determine intent. only in triathlon do we place ourselves in this straight jacket.
certainly i think the bar ought to be high. only when it's a clear case. so, male gets out of the water, pedals at 14mph. suddenly he starts pedaling at 22mph. magically, his wife appears at that moment. i have no problem flagging that.
i also think discretion ought to be used. same example above, except it's not 14mph and 22mph, it's husband and wife striding along, 3 or 4 hours behind the last podium spot in each of their age groups. no penalty.
what's the difference? judgment. i believe in judgment. reasonableness. discretion. i believe officials, backed up by a head ref who can oversee, and cast a second set of eyes, on such a call, can be trusted to make the correct call the great majority of the time.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Re: Can my husband pace me to KQ? [monty]
[ In reply to ]
monty wrote:
On the run, I have never heard about somebody paced by another competitor (not an external person) and being penalised. How do you prove it? Who has never latched on somebody who ran just a touch faster that you would and increase your pace this way?// Since you have never heard of it, it doesn't happen? I believe there are several stories and race coverage articles in the archives that point out this exact thing happening. I know because I covered a pretty big race where a brother dropped back to pace his sister in the run, and since it was a brutal headwind, also to give here a nice draft. Some husband and wife teams who also got busted for this, and had to shut down the practice.
Francois-Xavier Li @FrancoisLi
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." George Bernard Shaw
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BryanD wrote:
I just don't understand why someone can't race their own race. If you need pacing to Kona qualify, then you don't deserve to go to Kona. How about working on becoming a faster athlete then cheating your way thereThis was my point earlier, if you are "on the bubble" yet in the majority of athletes (say 2 thirds) at IM who don't pace properly then the problem is obvious. I would rather work on execution/strategy than rely on someone else who…chances are could go slower but totally eff up pacing.
She needs to HTFU figure out internal clock/rpe or get a PM/GPS to do the job for her.
Maurice