Kitty,

Please don't listen to the nonsense and dribble in this post.

One time I had the ambition of winning a race. I had a good swim, and I knew a stud biker was behind me. I knew that the race would be won off the bike, by whoever was with his pack in T2.. So I pedaled a comfortable pace and waited it out. Soon enough I heard the woosh of his disk wheel, and I dropped behind him at a legal distance. We picked up a few other riders along the way. We were all using him as a pacer.

In T2 we set off on the run as a pack. We all took turns setting the pace. Eventually, the winner broke free and won by a minute or so.

Was he DQ'ed for pacing? Of course not. He was RACING. And what we all did that day, is no different than what you plan to do.

Don't draft. Don't bandit.. But pace all you want! It is no different than a PM and GPS watch anyway.

Best of luck!!

Austin

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Austin Hardy -

ITU is fundamentally different than Ironman-style racing.

should a coach be able to provide a similar service? could be a new potential option that coaches provide to get AG athletes to KQ.

Yes, it is different. In your scenario no one (apparently) subordinated their own race to help someone else. (In which case one person was not racing).

Dan,
The original generation of racers might also consider PM and GPS as unfair, right? Or $12K racing bikes.. I have been in and out of triathlon for 20 years now. The changes in technology are just as big as the changes in philosophy. To vilify one, and embrace the other is an interesting stance. (Only referring to the context of "Triathlons original generation")

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Austin Hardy -

You don't seem to understand the rules on pacing and unauthorized assistance. What you did in your race is perfectly legal because no one specifically had a plan to mess up their own race for the benefit of another. If you and I have an agreement that I will pace you because I am faster than you, that is unauthorized assistance and is also unethical.

Finding a group of people on the bike and the run that are similar power output and run speeds and using them for pacing is not unauthorized assistance.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Bryan,
I understand your POV, and in some circles, I might even argue on your side of the room. But, I can also see Kitty's side, and lately have a hard time with the "holy rollers", and 'though shall not" types that seem to be dominating this, and other online forums.

WTC has made this a pay to play sport. If our girl (Kitty), and her man want to double down the registration fee and the training that goes with it, then I have no beef with their intents or execution. Its good for the growth of the sport, right!!?!?

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Austin Hardy -

so you are unable to see the distinction between what you describe and "I am racing in an individual sport, my husband is faster than me, so I will follow him for the duration of the event in order to improve my performance as opposed to improving my performance through the act of competing against my peers"

Words fail me.

You describe a race tactic, she describes working as a team where effectively the clock stops for the slowest person in the team. you can see the distinction right?

I pay to taxes to drive my car on the road just like everyone else and approach a stopped school bus. If I pass the school bus and I don't hit any kids, is that okay?

Where does one draw the line on ethics? If I work at a bank and take a penny from every bank transaction and put it in my own bank account, is that okay just because it's a penny?

You are either an ethical person or you're not. Once you go down the road of rule interpretations to benefit you, you've lost your moral compass

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

This. Using other people who are competing against you for pacing (even legal drafting distances) is simply smart race tactics. Those people are trying to beat you, and you are trying to beat them. All of you might finish faster, but in the end only one of you in that group is going to win the prize.

Having someone "throw" a race to pace is against the rules explicitly as "outside assistance". The distinction should be perfectly obvious.

For what it's worth, pacing someone like this is not a shoe-in even when trying to go significantly slower than one is capable of. Even if the guy was capable of a 9:30 finish but was only trying to go 11:00, that isn't at all a guarantee he would be capable of executing an 11 hour race. Just "going slower" is not as easy as it sounds when you have a full IM to traverse.

In This Thread: A *LOT* of people who are on their taper.

Get your caffeine folks...If you can't see the sarcasm, there is a problem.

There are plenty of people on Slowtwitch who would do exactly what she is wanting to do. Tapering does not give you an excuse to be an unethical cheater. Yes, I can detect sarcasm.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

It is completely different. There is a massive and clear distinction between pacing off of someone who is racing (completely legal, assuming that you don't illegally draft) and having someone pre-arranged, planned, and coordinated to pace you.

Pacing off of someone who is racing is not against the rules. Pacing someone is - very clearly - against the rules. If you coordinate to have a pacer out there you are equally complicit in the violation of this rule.

Again - it is completely different. PM's and GPS are not against the rules. Having a pacer explicitly is. If they were no different, why does the OP even want a pacer? Why not just use a PM and a GPS watch? It is because having a pacer who is working to help you confers a huge, and explicitly illegal, advantage.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

I really don't see where pacing gives any advantage. Maybe the OP's husband would be more a hindrance than help. Who knows. Plenty of pacers out there anyways

One race at NOLA we were told we would be penalized for a GPS watch giving an audible beep. Pacing violation. Yeah whatever

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Pacing gives a HUGE psychological advantage as well as physiological because it keeps you from exceeding your limits

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

What you described is called racing. What she's describing is called cheating.
We're not talking about someone just trying to finish a race here... she's talking about getting a Kona slot.

Do you think she's going to "accidentally" run into her husband during the bike and then stick together. How does this play out in practical terms.. Does the husband sit around in transition and waits for her to get there? Does he ride 12mph while she catches up on the bike? Does he carry her nutrition too? Helps her fix a flat? Think about it.

Very good question.

I would love for my wife to qualify for Kona, what a thrill that would be, but I would never agree to pace her through an IM. Do it on your own.

I am genuinely curious - how would you interpret "Kitty's side"?

What I hear when I read her post is - "I know that pacing confers an advantage and I want that advantage, because I am close to KQ. I have seen others do it and it makes me mad because they are getting an advantage that I am not. If someone else is going to do it, then I should be able to do it. But something in my gut doesn't exactly feel right about this, which is why I am going to ask others in a public forum. I really hope they tell me 'yes, that is just fine' because then my conscience will be clear."

Perhaps you read it completely differently.

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__________________________________________________
The plural of anecdote is not data. :-)
- Andrew Coggan

Ha, well I don't agree it really makes anyone faster to have someone pacing them or have an audible alarm on their watch beep every 8 minutes or whatever.

I'm married to an elite athlete, and I think it would be fun to race together side by side. Yes it would slow me down a bit. And she would most likely win her age group either way. In fact she tends to bury herself and ends up in a bad way after the race. I even considered racing by her side at IMFL to keep her in check, make her go slower. She would have likely won her age group. But alas the GI bug hit her at midnight on race am, so no racing for either of us.

What the OP described is clearly illegal according to the rules. But should it be prohibited for friends or spouses to race side by side no matter the intention?

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

I'm gonna start a new business. People will pay me to "pace" their arch nemesis and then they'll get DQ'd for unauthorized assistance. Imagine them trying to argue with the judge that they don't know the person who is admitting that they are pacing them.

or pace them to blow up.

Lets elevate the stakes one step:

What if TO decided to "throw" his race and paced Rinny to a Kona win in the manner exactly described here?

I think we all know the answer...

As other have stated, this is technically a grey area when it comes to the USAT rules, with that said it is 100% against the spirit of the rule. Personally I think there is a huge difference between "opportunity" pacing off of your fellow competitors (i.e. someone in your age group passes you on the run and you stay with them) vs. purposely having someone do the entire race alongside you for the sole purpose of helping motivate, encourage you, and provide advice along the way with regards to nutrition or any obstacles you may encounter.

The first example of opportunity pacing is what you do in a race... Dave Scott v. Mark Allen or Chrissie v. Rinny... it's tapping into everything YOU have physically and mentally to achieve your goals. Your motivation is internal in your heart and mind - your competitors aren't trying to encourage you beat them it's you versus them, who is physically and mentally stronger.

The second example is essentially hiring a better athlete, who just happens to be your husband, to pace you so you can get an extra advantage over your fellow athletes to enable you to reach your goal... which I'm assuming you don't think that you can reach on your own and that's why you want his help. You would be enlisting assistance externally to motivate you and encourage you through every second of the day.... does that sound like you might be gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors? Sounds like it to me... my husband couldn't pace me to a Kona slot and even if he could I would never consider asking him to because to me personally I would feel like a cheat.

Just another thing to consider - I was curious what the paratriathlete category 5 (visual impairment) rules are for guides as they are legally allowed by the rules to swim/bike/run with the athlete and figured that there had to be some measures in place to somewhat limit the benefit of having a guide that is a better athlete than another guide. Here's that the USAT rules state: "It is mandatory that only one guide of the same sex may be used throughout the race... At no time shall the guide lead or pace the athlete or propel the athlete forward by pulling or pushing... As the athlete crosses the finish line, the guide must maintain no more than the required 0.5 meter maximum separation distance and may not precede the athlete." So sounds like if you were blind and your husband was your guide then him pacing you to the finish line would be against the rules... so as a 100% able bodied athlete do you think it's okay for you to be paced?

As someone who is also chasing a Kona slot I hope you aren't in my age group. I podiumed at my last IM but missed a slot and no luck with a roll-down... so I'll be training smarter and harder for next year. I hope that you reconsider and decide to play on an even field. I think most would agree that in the spirit of the sport you should compete for a Kona slot on your own accord and not by following your husband there.

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Elisha
"Triathlon doesn't build character. It reveals it."

Back to the spirit of the rule stuff. What she wants to do can be done legally, and that is all that matters.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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