I totally agree with your analysis. I was trying to leave the door open for outliers because someone always comes out of the woodwork and says they did it no problem. But yes, maybe 10x400 in 75 for a five min milers is more what I recall from back in the day for the five min squad.

As a more general comment, I think there are a ton of people who are not yet 50, who don't understand just how slow we get around that age. It is absolutely stunning! When I was in my 20s and running 4:10s for the mile I would have bet a million bucks I could have run sub 5 at 50 off the couch. I'm not even close.

I ran with a bunch of fast guys when I was younger. Almost none of them can break 5 at 50. People just get bloody slow and the drop off happens quickly (and of course life gets in the way for most of us)

People also forget that 5:30 is really far away from 5 for the mile. So a lot of people just assume that with a bit of extra training they will get there - it rarely happens.

People also think a strava or garmin or road race is accurate. There is a big difference between actually running a mile on the track and interpolating one's potential mile time from a road ten km for example.

If you believe the various masters ranking sites, each year only about 130 guys in the world break 5 in the 50-54 age group. And they are people who train specifically for this event.

I wish anyone luck who tries it, but I have personally seen way more people that assumed they would get there and didn't, than those that do.

I bet you can!

I recently ran a 5:55 on my 55th birthday at 5:55 PM (which is also the time of day I was born). Then I went to Vegas and bet 5s :)

Seriously though, while not a sub-5, this was done about two years post lumbar fusion surgery which has slowed me down a bit, mostly out of caution as opposed to aerobic capacity.

Good luck!

I tried this at age 48 and failed miserably.

My PR for a half marathon was 1:20:30.
I had occasionally run fast in triathlons also.

I am not convinced that the task was impossible.

But very, very difficult.

What I learned:
1) A mile is not a good distance for me. (Maybe not for older guys)
400, 800m- are actually OK.
10K, 13.1, 26.2- also
OK.
mile- sucks

2) The mile is a sprint marathon.
I would need to do marathon mileage with short intervals & tempos.
Instead- my training was good for the 800 (a marathon sprint).

3) I would probably need a real race. And a year of specific training.
(Not just a couple of months and the track by myself).

Thanks Mark. The 2x2mi was in 2015 during tri training on a random Tuesday or something. I’ve taken two long running breaks a since then.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Never mind. ;) Best wishes should you choose this quest.

I bet you can do it, or come close. The one workout mentioned earlier (12x400 w/ 2 min off at 65) though was total crazytown - way, way, way too hard and also, probably too long and thus too high injury risk. I've been fit enough to run far sub-5 minute pace for 5000m and for me at my very fittest middle distance shape, that workout would have been a near race level effort. And I am also a 'diesel' slow twitch guy as well so I know where you're coming from.

My advice would be to stick with lots of 150m to 300m intervals (occasional 400's) and keep the quality workouts relatively short. Especially if you are a slow-twitch guy, you can and will improve quite a bit with consistent, short, quality workouts, and will keep your injury risk low(er). Examples - 10-12x150 hard (sub-mile pace) with generous rest, 12-16x200 at mile pace w/ 200 jog, 6-8x300 descend, etc. Some slightly longer workouts at ~3k pace are not a bad idea either but I'd focus on these as 3rd priority. Second priority - once every 7-10 days do hill sprints toward the end of an easy, short run. 2-4 of them, tops, 8-10 seconds on a steep hill, HARD. Jog down, wait a minute or two, repeat. Jog a a half mile to a mile to cool down. At first these will make you very sore.

Do all this for a couple months and you might be surprised how much your speed develops. Keep us posted with your progress!

No one mentioned doing a lot of pace work over 100m and 200m. Get the legs applying the force without the cardio distress that builds up over 400's and 800's. At least build up the foot speed without legs turning to rubber and then getting injured. Eric has a lot of ways to drive up the cardio load with swim and bike doing 75 second intervals in those sports (16x100m swim is approximately like doing 16x400m running from a cardio output angle). My gut feel is he can do it but he may injure himself getting there. Not sure that risk on the way to a fall Ironman prep makes sense. From what I recall, a mile uses 25% or so fast twitch fiber contribution, so this is a different world from an Ironman that is 99.99% slow twitch

I think so. NYRR had a couple of books out in the 1980s/1990s that were encyclopedic and had a variety of training plans including a very good one specifically for a 5-minute mile. I *think* it was in their Complete Book of Running, but I am not 100% sure on that title. But they only had 2 or 3 books out back then, so it should be easy to find. They have probably all been pdf'ed out to the web by now, so check the usual places like Scribd and Google Books.

The sub 3 marathon should prove an easier target than the sub 5 mile.

I hope you nail both. Please keep bumping the thread as you progress. I find these endeavours so inspiring and entertaining to follow.

I know a guy who has recently run a 65+ state record for 1500 metres with a 4:46. That's about 5:06 mile pace. He has a 2 year plan to take as many of the state, national and world records for 800, 1500, mile, 3000, 5000 and 10000 as possible. He needs to run 4:56 for the mile WR.

My goal is to podium at Kona before my 80th birthday... if I keep fit I might have a chance!

LOL

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks for this, I'll check it out. In the meantime I'll try to do some fast 100s in addition to the 30" of 12.0mph at 4% incline I've been doing on the treadmill.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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60-64 world record holder did 4:49 at age 61. No reason you can't do a 5 being 11-12 years younger. I aqua jog with him each week as a run supplemental workout--shows you even a world record holder respects aqua jogging as a vital component of training and usage as recovery. So yes, you can do it.

Thanks! I’ll definitely swim as part of any 5min attempt.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Well, the dude who holds the M55 world records for 1500 through to 10km is a bare-footer, so you might want to do that too! ;-)

Seriously though, the age records are so impressive. There's an particular awe and fascination with watching older athletes run seriously fast, when you simultaneously realise what is possible yet still incomprehensible.
List of world records in masters athletics - Wikipedia

Not swim, AQUA JOG. FWIW, Tim DeBoom used Aqua Jogging regularly while he was winning Kona (verified since we went to the same pool & I know him) & at one time considered the fastest marathoner in Ironman at his time of reign (or at least heard them say he was the fastest on the TV broadcast--not that the commentators were experts in knowing that necessarily).

Several of my team mates over 50 have run under 5 min this past year. One was 52 & ran 4:46 last season in USTAF meets (ranked #1 for his AG in the mile for most of the season). I would not say it is impossible since I watched one of them doing it no less than 3x of the ones I could make it to watch. Pretty inspiring to see the older dudes going those speeds. Lots of speedwork done...weekly.

Try to do this in the same year as an Ironman sounds like a bridge too far. At age 35 I bettered my uninspiring college PR while living in a big compound in Iraq with months of training and a couple of months of specific speedwork. At age 43 to 48 I coached my children in track and mostly just ran with the kids (minimal cycling and no swimming) and by doing that, I was always in sub-5 shape, but I lost about 10 seconds over those five years from 4:40ish to 4:50ish.
When I turned 50 I was hammering myself to set some post-50 PRs and getting ready to try out some college kids along with my son who was starting track--in the spring of 2020. Well, those meets went away along with my motivation.
At age 50 the speedwork required will really be tough on your body. When I was doing mega-volume in my 30s I could roll out of bed and run sub 5 with no speed, but that sort of speed leaves me crippled these days with out a patient, incremental build-up.
To your benefit, the new super shoes might be able to make the difference. I bought a pair just to see what it was all about and found it was good for about 2-4 sec per 400. With them, I approached 1:15 in a 400 repeat for the first time in years.
Your 2x2 miles at 10:40 is no joke but if you are heavier or injury prone, then recapturing that is going to be difficult without some very specific work.
Just because winter is less pleasant, at time, for cycling, I tend to focus on running more over the winter. You have nearly motivated me to give this another go.

THIS is good advice. You really have to prep yourself for race pace. I'll be 49 this summer and am hoping to run around a 5 min mile when I turn 50 and can compete in the Senior games. I am a consistent 18:45-19:00 5k'er now and did an early season (Jan) conservatively run 5:32 Mile at a middle/highschool meet that allowed Masters/Open competitors. It was fun toeing then line for the fist time in 30 years and getting smoked by tiny 12-14 year olds. Anyway I have found that my foot speed is terrible and the ability to maintain the requisite paces needed to get low 5's is even more terrible. To fix, I have been mostly working on being comfortable running sub 37.5 200's (sets of 10-12 with 1-1:25 walking rest and if I can't make my goal time the work out is over) and then working on pushing those to out to 300's. Some track days I'll do 6-8 400's in current (not goal) Mile pace + 3-5s with 2-3 minute rest. Some longer threshold work is also needed 800-1200 at estimated 3K race pace (slower than mile but faster than 5K). With all the speed work and intensity you probably will need to cut your mileage way down on your other runs. The advice I got was to cut my long runs down to 5-8 miles and recovery runs to 3-5. Another good bit of advice I got from the Masters Miler's FB group is to rethink the 7 day cycle. Instead of trying to squeeze in a long run, a track run and a threshold type run into 7 days moving to a 10 day cycle might be better to allow more rest/recovery days.

I really enjoy the intensity and shorter workouts that come with the Mile training. To me a 30-45 minute intense workout is more fun than a 2.5 hour long run. Just be careful about the intensity and start conservatively. Before I got some advice I was doing the 7 day cycle that consisted of a 10 mile long run, track workouts with middle/highschool kids where I was running way too fast, a 20 min threshold run at 5K race pace + 15s, plus longish recovery runs where I was ending with lots of strides. After 2.5 months of this I burned out and am now experiencing a bit of overtraining syndrome like symptoms (including struggling to break 20 in a recent 5k). I have way more foot speed now and could probably improve on my 5:32 if I gutted it out but it seems risky so I am bailing on the upcoming 2 track meets I had planned on racing at and am just going to focus on my long term goal over the next 1.5 years. We'll see what happens!

Good luck to you and enjoy the ride!

Mile predictor track workout via Nick Symonds. My track buddies did it with me and pretty damn accurate!... 400x8 at mile goal pace on 1 minute rest. Report back here your result :)

This is sort of my point - 4:46 is only 14 seconds under a 5 min mile and it is the national time leader.

I think since sub 5 was so easy at young age it seems like it should still be really easy, but I still maintain it's a lot harder than it looks.

Curious, did you go for the Sub 5 mile and sub 3 marathon this year? Lots of great feedback on the post!

Go for it. Our running group always had the goal of 2hours plus our age for the marathon and 4 minutes plus our age for the mile. A fast mile will help you get faster at all distances.

Sub 5 is never going to happen. I’m more likely to run a 2:37 marathon than a fast mile. I’m a diesel.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Try my workout suggestion ! All sub 2:40 people can crack 5. Based on your 2:55 I am going to guess 5:20. Although Nick Bare went under 5 with a 2:55

Not likely at all. Don't know of any 2:37 marathoners that cannot run a single 5 minute mile.