I also found this interesting, and looked at some equations for Vo2 off of his numbers as well even though these aren't completely accurate. Not sure if Cam has been tested but guessing he has. Either way I found this formula V02 Max = 1682+9.7 * (2k-wattage) [ml/min] which supposedly is based on numbers from elite rowers, so on average each 9,7ml increase in Vo2 expressed in ml/min equals a one watt increase in 2k wattage.
Which gives Cam a Vo2max of around 86@70kg, which is a very high number but def not unheard of for a elite rower/cyclist. If I put in my own 2k time in the formula the number is around 20% lower than my actual Vo2max which is reasonable considering i've spent about 10h on the rower.

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

My best athletic comparison to my 21 year old self is when I ran the RMC 1.5 mile fitness test in 7:06. This is roughly 5.6 meters per second run pace, which also roughly translates into 5.6W per kilo. That puts my 21 year old equivalent of 2000m erg power at 353W or that would be my virtual 20 min bike power. So looks like there i a long way to go on the erg....having said that, my most recent 20 min 50 year old bike power was around 260-270W range, so I think this is a reasonable target. This means I have to row 2000m at 1:49. I THINK it may be possible to exceed my bike numbers because I am not a pure biker going to the erg with zero upper body. I have a couple of decades of competitive XC ski racing with an upper body physiology that is trained to output aerobic work, so maybe a slight chance to overexceed the 50 year old 20 min bike numbers in due course.

Likewise - used to do the 2k in 6:19 which is about 410W. Best I've done in a 20 minute bike test is 337W.

What was your age gap between the two?

Nearly 20 years unfortunately! 43 now, last rowed seriously at 25. But I did train hard on the ergo a couple of years back and got down to 6:30 for 2k off the back of maybe a month of training, so seems like I'd still be able to get close to my old score if I put in a solid training block. I've also been cycling since my teens, and although I haven't had access to power until the last couple of years I'd be surprised if there was a point where I was putting out any more watts than I am now. Not for 20 minutes anyway. Seems I'm as fast or faster on the bike tab I've ever been foot the endurance stuff.

What fascinates me most is that Cam used to put in 8 hour training days (rowing plus crosstraining) for a 6 minute race.

I have thought about that before but I always wonder. I know that you get fast at running from running. But there is a limit of how much running you can do. So would a runner that already runs as much as possible not benefit from cycling, swimming, aquarunning, skiing etc. so that he can still train the aerobic system for 4-5 plus hours a day?
Or would that let him too fried for the hard running sessions?
Running is a very good cardiovascular training after all and very time eficient. But what if you just add some none impact stimuli.

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

You're almost exactly me. 6:17 and 345W. 75ish kilos. (About 20 years apart, so my collegiate-aged bike wattage might have been significantly higher. )

Meb did a lot of work later in his career on the Elliptigo. Results would seem to speak for themselves. The Japanese marathoners all do a lot of hiking, for the same reason.

To answer earlier post, I only would ride my TT bike for sessions with "specific" efforts. Probably about 50% of my rides, but only about 25% of my total volume. Sebastian and Andi Boecherer - who share the same coach - both do only about 10% of their miles on their TT bikes and basically only ride it for very specific, higher intensity efforts. Specificity means specificity, which means riding in the aerobars.

And really high intensity work in the aerobars often means very high speed, something that I tried to only do on certain roads. it's just too risky otherwise. That's another consideration besides biomechanical. This was a big part of what drove me onto Zwift. No worry about doing long warm-ups and cool-downs to get to roads for TTing, and no worry about speeds at effort in the aerobars.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Just speculating, but I don't think it would help a runner anywhere near as much as a rower.

Just as one example, the first ~10 strokes of a rowing race are like power lifting. Huge loads and forces. And there's a real benefit to training to optimize those first ~20 strokes because if you're able to get "a seat" up by the time you get up to your steady-state speed you've got a number of tactical and psychological advantages. You can shift over the to the edge of your lane line and put a competitor in "dirtier" water. You get to see your competitors without shifting your head (a no-no). And they can't see you. If you can move your coxswain right into the middle of another boat, your coxswain can start talking to the other boat. :)

In running, even in a 1500m race, there's no huge benefit to leaping out in front immediately.

I think if we take the racing out and just focus on the mechanics of running vs say cycling, swimming, XC skiing and rowing in the last 4 sports, you can do a lot of intensity all the time even on pretty tired bodies. For running you really can't do that. Things break down from the weight bearing nature. If you had to do all your riding out of the saddle, you would have the same problem. In XC skiing, if you did all your skiing legs only you would have a similar problem, but there is a ton of coasting and gliding and using the arms/upper body. It is the same reason that speed skaters can only do so many hours of speed skating on in line skating and then they compliment with cycling. With rowing or swimming you can just go on forever and keep working your cardio. Same thing with cycling. Swimmers, rowers, cyclists....they can all do 30 hour training weeks. At 10 miles an hour for a fairly elite runner, this would be a 300 MILE running week or 500 km. That's not even in the realm of Iron Cowboy or our fitness woman doing 50 IM's in 50 days.

I always thought that it was the impact in running that limits the volume you can do, more than the fact that it's weight bearing? Pretty sure I could handle more volume skiing than I could running for example.

Other point to note in rowing is the technique, I've known some guys who were absolute beasts on the ergo but would lose out on the water to more technical rowers with much less power. Even at elite levels the crew that wins isn't simply the one with the best ergo times. And it's not just individual technique like runners or skiers, you've got to get the whole crew rowing the same way in terms of timing, power application, etc. All those hours training together are critical to ensuring that the crew hold together even in the closing strokes of a race when every muscle is burning with lactic acid.

Dev--

This is my kind of thread. We regularly test 65-75kg athletes on the erg over 2000m (between 6:00-6:20), and over 6000m (between 20:00 and 21:00). When they happen to get injured and can't erg, or sometimes when they just mix it up, we conduct Concept Bike Erg tests over 6:00 and 20:00. Here are the average of the averages over hundreds of tests in 2017-2018 season

1) 2k erg Watts = 120% of 6k erg watts (I cannot overstate how uncanny this % is. Almost all 30 guys between 119% and 121%)
2) 6:00 C2Bike Watts = 117% of 20:00 C2Bike Watts (a slightly wider range, 113% to 122%)

now for the most relevant %s for this thread
3) 2k erg Watts = 94% of 6:00 C2Bike Watts, like Cam said more watts on bike for sure
4) 6k Erg Watts = 86% of 20:00 C2Bike Watts, ditto

how does that compare to Cam's reported numbers?
(2k erg, 6:09, 450w), (5min bike, 527w), (Erg to Bike = 85.4%)

I suspect Cam had more to go as a rower! Perhaps even something as small as 1min less on the bike vs. the 6:09 on the erg can account for the 8% difference from the Princeton guys.

**I had tons of hard data from dozens upon dozens of lab rats, so I provided. I completely understand that there are too many variables in this, such as my guys not being expert bikers, Cam doing his PBs a decade apart, Drag setting on erg, drag setting on C2 Bike, exact length of tests, etc etc

Enjoy, Marty

Full disclosure, I have the pleasure of helping Cam out with his running form. We’ve been working together on and off for 2 years. We talk regularly. Some things to remember.

1. Cam was in the Beijing Olympics in rowing. Not just a participant but one of the favorites. They didn’t bring home the medal. It was also the same year Jan won Gold.
2. He looked at another 4 years for another crack. That was daunting and he chose not to do that. So he probably left some rowing potential on the water.
3. He became a cyclist and not just any cyclist. He made it all the way to the Pro Peloton riding the Giro D’Talia.
4. He has a short term view of triathlon. His athletic career has been as long as Jan’s but his triathlon career is very short. His training and racing is built on ramping up experience fast and then maxing out what he can in a relatively short time. His engine and his mechanics allow him to do this.
5. His coach was a rowing coach before he was a cycling coach.

The things we are talking about on this thread are tested numbers. All they prove out is Cam is an athlete who can perform at the top of 3 sports. What they can’t and what they don’t measure is what’s between the ears. I’ve worked with athletes who had similar numbers but simply didn’t have it between the ears. Cam is very special between the ears. He is exceptionally adaptive. I can only comment from my lens. From the day we started working his ability to absorb what we work on and then apply it in the best way for him is uncanny. I shared a side by side photo from a session we did and a runner with perfect form. That was before Kona last year. By the end of November he had already adapted his form to get closer to the guy in the picture. That’s not normal. I shared the picture because I knew his head would figure out the rest.

He’s a very special athlete as you well know. We are all really lucky to have him in this sport.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Wow, what an all star group of coaches coming on this thread. This value is priceless. Marty, thanks for enabling my journey on the erg...because of my erg based rehab I was actually able to start cycling again regaining control over my nerve compressed left leg....well, I ended up being run over by a bus too, but I am back on the trainer and erg and able to apply enough power with my hand (have to hold onto the oar).

So these are the takeaway numbers:

3) 2k erg Watts = 94% of 6:00 C2Bike Watts, like Cam said more watts on bike for sure
4) 6k Erg Watts = 86% of 20:00 C2Bike Watts, ditto

However, I need to ask about your testing. Did you guys use fan and if so, do you know airflow. The reason I ask is on the bike there is zero airflow. On the erg minimally you generate approximately 1 m/s of airflow by moving back and forth at 30 strokes per minute. This is a meaningful amount of cooling, so if you used zero fan on the bike erg, then the bike numbers should be higher still, especially at the intensities of these tests and given you have a lot of big engine guys generating a ton of heat.

If you look at your 6K Erg watts being 86% of bike watts, this falls EXACTLY into what Rapp said about being able to go 3x the DURATION on the bike for the same watts (roughly as we drop bike wattage to 85-90 percent range of 100% we double or triple the duration we can sustain....depends on the person and their fatness I guess).

Super thanks Dave. Related to Cam being "in tune" with his body and adapting, if we look at his progression in swimming from not swimming competititvely to a couple of minutes off the front pace in Nice and Roth it is pretty impressive. If you can share or he can come and answer what his run training looks like during a multi IM stretch that would be interesting....given his volume on the bike, is he a low volume runner?

Also from the fan peanut gallery, I don't think his best way of acquiring experience is doing so many IM's....he could do an olympic tri or half IM every weekend and get experience. Everything we will learn about our bodies at 80% FTP we can find out quicker at 100% FTP. It just takes less time at higher intensity to find out...well, minus the nutrition part, but he seems to never have digestive issues so he may already have that nailed in IM.

 

He did Athens after being U23 world champs - hell of an effort to be the best LM2x in the country that young.
Pretty sure he had pulled the pin by Beijing - can't recall him trialling that season. I could be wrong, it's ten years ago, but I reckon the last time he rowed for AUS was 2006.
Agreed re: potential - he is a hell of an athlete. More talent in his little toe than most of us in our whole body.

And to add to Rapp and co on watts
My 2k put me at just over 500 watts @ 91 kg, 6k < 20 mins @ 400 watts. Did a bike test around the time of my 6k as VO2 max and they hadn't got any more steps than 550. Topped out at 5 and a bit minutes at 550 at the end of the VO2.

There's a lot of work to do before I could even think of holding my 6k wattage for 20 mins again even on the bike.

Dev,

Cam grew up on Lord Howe Island - Do a google search. His Aussie buddies would give him a ribbing if he wasn’t good in the water. Aside from that he’s at Tower 26 when he’s in LA.

His run training is up on Strava. I don’t think you’d notice anything unique about his run training. His engine and his body structure dictates his running just like anyone on the upward curve of running. I’m sure there is someone on this thread who can look through his strava account and come up with his basic run progression. I rarely look at his volume or type of workout. I look at benchmarks of general pace, effort and cadence. Remember I’m not really interested in the training, just how good he looks while he’s doing it.

I think it’s important to not put an athlete like him in a box of basic race strategies. He’s the only athlete in the sport who has been at the very, very top of the game in rowing and cycling. Find the Podcasts where he talks about how he met up with his coach in the first place. There is nothing Triathlon about it.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

You’re right it was Athen’s not Beijing.

Thanks for pointing that out.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

It always amazed me how difficult it even is for elite ITU/olympic triathletes to cross to competitive IM fresh from years of sport specific training/honing (racing at sub30min/10km level) even though the training volumes arent even that different



on breakfast with bob (youtube) Cam said he only trained up to 10km running for oceanside where he ran 90minutes 70.3 - then he won ironman wales without any more mileage.

This year didnt he do back to back ironmans (2x bike records) after training with Froome for a few months? the marathon doesn't seem to beat his legs too much so his running technique must be really good!

This might make a strong argument that there is adequate training cross over benefit and that its okay to bias training toward biking? the benefit being to keep legs fresher, race more often while keeping safe from injury for longevity?

I need to get out more...

Haha your actually spot on, my lung volume is around 6.1litres so Vo2 obviously fluctuates with my weight but mid 80's is my most common reading over the years, occasionally a low 90 when I'm at race trim, hopefully by October 😂

Think this is actually a good representation of the sort of athlete you are, big punch and a huge engine. Wouldn’t be surprised if you had the highest vo2 in the field come Kona. Looking forward to watching you crush Zurich!

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Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Can you just get Richie Porte to join you guys in Kona this year....get WTC to give him a wildcard....the Hawi Express with him added in could be fun....or get your buddie Froome to knock of the Vuelta after the TdF as a solid training block for Kona. Either option we can settle for.

By the way, would your cruise pace on the Concept 2 be around 1:40 for longer duration workouts (say 1 hour). Do you ever use this anymore in the offseason (wait, you don't have an off season you're trying to surpass Petr Vabrousek)....I really think you should do Ultraman Hawaii though

That got me curious. I may go to the gym in the next few days and see how that compares to my 5min and 20min on the bike (415w, and 331w only but then I'm definitely older than you, a 7kg lighter...and less talented, so that adds up) :)

Let us know what your delta are between the erg and the bike!!! Hey no complaining about being old someone who looks like me will shout at you to get off the lawn!!!