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Cam Wurf: 6 min bike power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W
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In another thread which many of you may have not read, Cam Wurf came on the forum and answered some questions related to his 2 hour power, 20 min power and then he gave details on his 5 min power and also what he used to do when he was a competitive rower:



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Cjwurf
Jul 8, 18 2:29
Post #122 of 130 (159 views)
That's really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450+- depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it's much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I'd AVE 190's and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike


devashish_paul
Jul 8, 18 6:14
Post #125 of 130 (91 views)
Cjwurf wrote:
That's really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450+- depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it's much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I'd AVE 190's and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike



Cam your 6:09 translates to 450W. I would assume on the bike (let's say if you hammer up the first part of the Col d'Eze outside Nice), you would easily hold over 500W for 6 minutes based on some of the numbers you say you can hold for 2 hours, but I could be wrong. I would be really interested in seeing what you could do in a 4000m pursuit on the track too!

What I find interestinig about this discussion is how 4-5 minute power correlates so well to 4+ hour performance. Well, I guess it is no surprise that someone like Wiggins can be a 4000m pursuit gold medalist and win 4+ hour TdF stages, or in your case, go from doubles or singles skulling to Kona bike course record holder. Thanks for the visibility. Do you use the erg at all for cross training any more?

Cjwurf
Jul 8, 18 10:27
Post #129 of 130 (52 views)
Haha that's really interesting isn't it. Your pretty spot on, my best 5min is 527watts and best 10min is 485 so I guess extrapolation of that is around 500ish for 6.

Guess it shows what I've always believed and that is rowing is an excellent measure of aerobic endurance and basically every energy system the body has at its disposal, really greatful for my background in the boat!

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Jul 11, 18 4:57
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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An interesting interview with Cam:



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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
*snip*

Thanks a lot for posting this, I hadn't seen it.

I really like the approach Wurf has - his blog is good, interviews are refreshing, and he's really positive.
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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Like many tri pros, his transparency is awesome. Interesting that his 6 min bike power is right near 7W per kilo. On the erg it is more like 6.5W per kilo.

This is what Cam said about his 20 min bike power on the Froome "not more liked" thread ~ 6.5W per kilo. No wonder he set the bike course record in Nice


That's really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450+- depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it's much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I'd AVE 190's and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike

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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Like many tri pros, his transparency is awesome. Interesting that his 6 min bike power is right near 7W per kilo. On the erg it is more like 6.5W per kilo.

This is what Cam said about his 20 min bike power on the Froome "not more liked" thread ~ 6.5W per kilo. No wonder he set the bike course record in Nice



That's really interesting, my PB on the rowing machine was 6:09 @ 70kg, not sure that in wattage? Perhaps you could let me know? My 20min power on the bike is 450+- depending on form, guessing the power on the rower is lower than that as it's much easier to produce power on a bike than a rowing machine but great question. Heart rate as a guage is probably more relevant, I'd AVE 190's and top out at 205 on the rower, probably similar for a 20min all out effort on the tt bike
Yeah you already said that :D
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'd say that this is fairly consistent with what I've seen with other rower-cyclists as well as myself.

My own 2km PB was 6:18.3 - which translates to about 415w also at 70kg. My best 20min power is - so far - 402w, also at 70kg. And my very rough rule of thumb was always divide by 3. Basically, whatever power I could hold for Xmin on the erg, I should be able to hold that for 3x that on the bike. So, for practical terms, my 2km power = my 20min cycling power. My 6km power = my 60min cycling power.

In rowing, I stopped after college - which is how I found triathlon - and never really felt I achieved what I could have (should have...). I believed that 6:10-6:12 was eminently doable, and I'd say that's likely born out by what I'd say I've seen in the years since.

On the cycling side, my current best 5min power is 490w or so at just over 70kg, but I expect to decimate that pretty handily over the next few months as I'm back to training specifically for this sort of effort getting ready for the pursuit. My target sustained power for Master's World's is 500-510, coming after the start, so that means being able to hold that power for 5min sustained effort. And that's in the aerobars. Climbing power is virtually always easier to generate than aero power when you're talking about that real top end.

It may have been toppled by some guy on zPower by now, but the overall Strava KOM for Keith Hill in Zwift is/was held by a German Olympic rower. Very similar power to Cam. I believe it's ~9min @ 465w.

Don't know how much erging he did, but Hamish Carter was quite an accomplished junior rower in New Zealand. Much better - early in his life - as a rower than as a triathlete. Probably would have kept rowing, I'd wager, if NZL had a better LWT program; they have great rowing, but it's all heavyweights. And Hamish is just too small. Seems like it worked out okay for him tho... Wink


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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
I'd say that this is fairly consistent with what I've seen with other rower-cyclists as well as myself.

My own 2km PB was 6:18.3 - which translates to about 415w also at 70kg. My best 20min power is - so far - 402w, also at 70kg. And my very rough rule of thumb was always divide by 3. Basically, whatever power I could hold for Xmin on the erg, I should be able to hold that for 3x that on the bike. So, for practical terms, my 2km power = my 20min cycling power. My 6km power = my 60min cycling power.

In rowing, I stopped after college - which is how I found triathlon - and never really felt I achieved what I could have (should have...). I believed that 6:10-6:12 was eminently doable, and I'd say that's likely born out by what I'd say I've seen in the years since.

On the cycling side, my current best 5min power is 490w or so at just over 70kg, but I expect to decimate that pretty handily over the next few months as I'm back to training specifically for this sort of effort getting ready for the pursuit. My target sustained power for Master's World's is 500-510, coming after the start, so that means being able to hold that power for 5min sustained effort. And that's in the aerobars. Climbing power is virtually always easier to generate than aero power when you're talking about that real top end.

It may have been toppled by some guy on zPower by now, but the overall Strava KOM for Keith Hill in Zwift is/was held by a German Olympic rower. Very similar power to Cam. I believe it's ~9min @ 465w.

Don't know how much erging he did, but Hamish Carter was quite an accomplished junior rower in New Zealand. Much better - early in his life - as a rower than as a triathlete. Probably would have kept rowing, I'd wager, if NZL had a better LWT program; they have great rowing, but it's all heavyweights. And Hamish is just too small. Seems like it worked out okay for him tho... Wink

Jordan, thanks for the visibility into your erg times and equivalent power on the erg and translation factor to the bike. Thanks for your 3x rule of thumb....so my 20 min erg power ends up being my bike FTP assuming that the form to do that sport has been perfected which would be the case for athletes such as yourself, Cam or Hamish Carter. Seems for rowing you want your weight to be right on the lightweight limit or as heavy as possible. Thus Hamish would be in no man's land perhaps being too small. You and Cam would be in the right range to give that sport a go.

Congrats on doing 7W per kilo for 5 min on the bike. Very impressive (....for an OLD guys LOL)...I can't believe I called you an old guy. I remember when you posted on this Forum way back when when you out biked Tim DeBoom at Florida 70.3 as a neo pro!

Best of luck in the 4000m pursuit. What is your target time and which velodrome will this be on?
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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It would be interesting to know what numbers Hamish Bond is putting out.
He is taking cycling seriously now and was obviously amazing in the rowing.
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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4km @ Elite Nationals on Aug 5 at VELO in Carson, CA
3km @ Master's World's in early Oct also at VELO

Then thinking a shot at the 35-39 Master's Hour next year early in the year at Aguascaliente. Inspired in no small part by seeing our very own MTM taking a shot at THE Hour Record shortly at Aguas...

I'm 37, so I'm in that weird 'tweener zone age wise. I wouldn't say I'm "old" yet. But I'm definitely not young anymore...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I think that in cycling you can be closer to producing power continuously. There is some fluctuation in the "dead spot" but you're not going down to 0 and your cadence is 80-90.

In rowing your cadence is more like 30 and 50% of the time your are producing 0 watts. So to get 450 average, it's like 900 watts for 1 second, 0 watts for 1 second, over and over again.

So I think it's pretty normal for rowing power to be lower than cycling power.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
I'd say that this is fairly consistent with what I've seen with other rower-cyclists as well as myself.

My own 2km PB was 6:18.3 - which translates to about 415w also at 70kg. My best 20min power is - so far - 402w, also at 70kg. And my very rough rule of thumb was always divide by 3. Basically, whatever power I could hold for Xmin on the erg, I should be able to hold that for 3x that on the bike. So, for practical terms, my 2km power = my 20min cycling power. My 6km power = my 60min cycling power.

In rowing, I stopped after college - which is how I found triathlon - and never really felt I achieved what I could have (should have...). I believed that 6:10-6:12 was eminently doable, and I'd say that's likely born out by what I'd say I've seen in the years since.

On the cycling side, my current best 5min power is 490w or so at just over 70kg, but I expect to decimate that pretty handily over the next few months as I'm back to training specifically for this sort of effort getting ready for the pursuit. My target sustained power for Master's World's is 500-510, coming after the start, so that means being able to hold that power for 5min sustained effort. And that's in the aerobars. Climbing power is virtually always easier to generate than aero power when you're talking about that real top end.

It may have been toppled by some guy on zPower by now, but the overall Strava KOM for Keith Hill in Zwift is/was held by a German Olympic rower. Very similar power to Cam. I believe it's ~9min @ 465w.

Don't know how much erging he did, but Hamish Carter was quite an accomplished junior rower in New Zealand. Much better - early in his life - as a rower than as a triathlete. Probably would have kept rowing, I'd wager, if NZL had a better LWT program; they have great rowing, but it's all heavyweights. And Hamish is just too small. Seems like it worked out okay for him tho... Wink

Hamish Bond, 2 x olympic gold medallist in coxless pair, and half of the most dominant rowing combo in recent times, has switched to cycling in the TT. You can see his power on strava etc. He got 3rd in Commonwealth Games TT.

He can do 18,443m in 60min on an erg according to wikipedia, which is 1.37 or so per 500m. So 6 min 28secs per 2000m average for one hour.
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [DeanV] [ In reply to ]
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DeanV wrote:
It would be interesting to know what numbers Hamish Bond is putting out.
He is taking cycling seriously now and was obviously amazing in the rowing.

check his strava out. he posts numbers from his tt races.
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Out of curiosity what does rowing have to do with cycling?
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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well, they mainly use your legs and in similar ways. mahe drysdale, olympic single sculls champ, has often substituted cycling for rowing due to injuries etc. he has completed an ironman also...
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [thatzone] [ In reply to ]
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thatzone wrote:
Out of curiosity what does rowing have to do with cycling?

Did you even read what Cam Wurf and Jordan Rapp wrote....the common element is output wattage from the human machine system. In other words...CARDIO!
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting comparison which I guess tells me I’m WAY underperforming my cycling power based on my rowing power. Then again, rowing was virtually a full-time, 6-7 day/ week job and biking is only done 3-4/week as a hobby but still interesting.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Jul 10, 18 18:01
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I got my 1500m rowing power up to my former biking FTP when out of shape....but I probably had 9000 lifetime bike hours and probably 45 lifetime erg hours! It sounds like you want to get your rowing 2000m in the range of your 20 min bike power.
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly!
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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i also find it interesting that he only rides his TT bike 20 or so % of the time during training. i was under the assumption (from what ive gleaned reading here and what seems to be popular opinion) that you need to train in TT as much as possible to get all the parts of your body (muscles) that help you make the power in that position stronger / more adapted to that position. by no means am i saying hes wrong... you cant argue with results!

2018 Schedule: Texas Half Ironman April 8 // Tri Cap Tex, May 28 // Cypress, TX Sprint July 29 // Kemah, TX Olympic October 21
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
i also find it interesting that he only rides his TT bike 20 or so % of the time during training. i was under the assumption (from what ive gleaned reading here and what seems to be popular opinion) that you need to train in TT as much as possible to get all the parts of your body (muscles) that help you make the power in that position stronger / more adapted to that position. by no means am i saying hes wrong... you cant argue with results!

Hopefully Rapp can come in and comment as I believe his recommendation is that if you ride your road bike with the hip angle on the hoods approximately the same as your TT position hip angle, then you should have no transition problem at all (other than elbows/shoulders locked into the aeropads that takes some getting used to, but should have zero impact on power output). If you are on your road bike in the drops, you'll scoot forward on the saddle to again arrive at the same hip angle as hoods where you are seated further back.

Normann Stadler before these guys and Kienle currently does lots of road bike miles.
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Well I've got a ways to go it seems, though I don't know if it's fair to compare my 22 year old self to my 41 year old self. 2k rowing power was 377 watts. 20 minute bike power is 297.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
http://www.motivengines.com
@EdwardOMalley
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
i also find it interesting that he only rides his TT bike 20 or so % of the time during training. i was under the assumption (from what ive gleaned reading here and what seems to be popular opinion) that you need to train in TT as much as possible to get all the parts of your body (muscles) that help you make the power in that position stronger / more adapted to that position. by no means am i saying hes wrong... you cant argue with results!

This is a fairly common trait among a lot of the top bikers. I am not sure what the percentage is for everyone but Maik Twelsiak, Ben Hoffman, Sebi, Rappstar, Starky, are just some of the names I am familiar with that do a lot of riding off their TT bikes. For one it is a change of pace, but two, it is also more comfortable. For me, two other things I have noticed are that road bikes give me a safer feeling, especially in cities. In cities, I am just moving too fast on a TT bike and I am much smaller and cars have a much harder time seeing me. The delayed reaction time from them, plus the delayed reaction time from both getting to the brakes plus stopping from a higher speed creates extra risk.


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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
damon.lebeouf wrote:
For me, two other things I have noticed are that road bikes give me a safer feeling, especially in cities. In cities, I am just moving too fast on a TT bike and I am much smaller and cars have a much harder time seeing me. The delayed reaction time from them, plus the delayed reaction time from both getting to the brakes plus stopping from a higher speed creates extra risk.

i can 100% agree with this. i would never ride my tri bike in any sort of city traffic. that makes perfect sense.


for the sake of the discussion though, eliminating the safety factor, and focusing PURELY on returns from training, it seems to me that one would want to spend as much time in aero. train like you race and all that.

my only citation for this would be a recent podcast the trainerroad guys did (with them referencing the 40k TT they were doing). all of their FTPs were around 20% or so (from what i remember) lower in aero than on their road bikes. it would seem to me to train in that position to get stronger in that position.

i would recon that if top athletes are not doing this then they are already towards the top of their game and maintaining fitness and incremental gains are what they focus on.

this is all pure conjecture on my part though. maybe i need to pull my tri bike off my trainer and put my roadie back on. :)

2018 Schedule: Texas Half Ironman April 8 // Tri Cap Tex, May 28 // Cypress, TX Sprint July 29 // Kemah, TX Olympic October 21
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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
i can 100% agree with this. i would never ride my tri bike in any sort of city traffic. that makes perfect sense.


for the sake of the discussion though, eliminating the safety factor, and focusing PURELY on returns from training, it seems to me that one would want to spend as much time in aero. train like you race and all that.

my only citation for this would be a recent podcast the trainerroad guys did (with them referencing the 40k TT they were doing). all of their FTPs were around 20% or so (from what i remember) lower in aero than on their road bikes. it would seem to me to train in that position to get stronger in that position.

i would recon that if top athletes are not doing this then they are already towards the top of their game and maintaining fitness and incremental gains are what they focus on.

this is all pure conjecture on my part though. maybe i need to pull my tri bike off my trainer and put my roadie back on. :)

This could get into a really long discussion filled with some conjecture but I'll try to keep this brief. I am sure Rapp might add his thoughts, but I believe part of what he might say is he would do specific work in his TT position, but the blocking and tackling riding (base work, recovery work, etc) was just not comfortable to do compared to his bike. I find in Florida it is really hard to ride hard watts because you are going so fast that you are skipping off the pavement and can't get good power transfer and it is hard to get a good workout. In a race, I am likely riding 50-120 watts lower than those intervals where I am really throwing down power. Going slower actually helps me put out more power which helps increase the HR and increase the the fitness response. Skipping back to Rapp, there is something to be said about soft-pedaling on a TT bike. If you are putting out watts it lifts your body off the saddle a bit and relives some pressure. Top pros tend to have some of the most aggressive positions, and while it might be fine if you are putting out a lot of watts. Relatively low watts rides (ie soft-pedaling) are tough and much better suited for the road bike.

For me, there are some other things too. I just don't think the TT position is good for the long-term health of the neck and some arteries in legs/hips, but also, riding the TT bike is just not a fair fight unless I am riding with some very choice cyclists. Most cyclists don't have a TT bike anyway and out of respect I also wouldn't bring one to the group ride. Regardless, I am a firm believer in doing work, and one of the best mental tricks I have found is to handicap myself in training. For me, on the bike, I have for years taken a cross bike with 42mm commuter tires, baskets, rack etc on group rides. This POS versus their aero carbon frames with GP4000s is a knife versus gun fight. While I might struggle to stay on I don't have to think about anything else than staying attached and I get a better workout and thus get better at cycling. You can make the same point that riding a road bike is just more enjoyable and more enjoyment equals more riding = better fitness.

Just a couple of quick anecdotes. I was leading a large group ride earlier this on a volunteer basis, it was one of two real rides I have done since October. It was a bunch of triathletes, and I asked them why they didn't bring their road bikes (it was fun training not serious training) and they said they just weren't comfortable on them. That to me is classic thing I hear and I don't know if it is familiarity or really comfort. If it is about comfort I would suggest they weren't fitted to their road bikes properly. Ideally a road bike should be more comfortable than a tri bike but I think people get confused with familiarity. They are too familiar with the tri bike and know how it feels and handles. I also met a set of ladies locally last year who said they preferred their TT bike because they felt so slow on their road bikes.

Second anecdote, I haven't ridden since October really outside of one ride with some training partners and one volunteer ride. I hadn't ridden my TT bike since Louisville and last month I entered a local race on Friday at 6pm (race was Saturday morning). I figured I should at least ride the TT bike once before the race and to make sure the tires still held sealant and the bike worked so I took it for a quick 30 min spin. The end result was a win with a bike bike split against some choice amateurs. The ride was pretty pathetic but that was more about my fitness than about the bike. Point being that I still road minutes faster than anyone else over this 11 mile bike ride. How much did a I lose in specificity of not riding a TT bike. I would argue a very minimal amount.

Regardless, if at the end of the day you enjoy your TT bike then ride it. If you like your road bike then ride it. To me the answer isn't really about choosing one or the other... it is ultimately just about riding.


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Re: Cam Wurf: 6 min power ~ 500W, 2000m row 6:09 = 450W [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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very nice response and very nice points.

thanks a lot for putting the time in to make that post. :)

2018 Schedule: Texas Half Ironman April 8 // Tri Cap Tex, May 28 // Cypress, TX Sprint July 29 // Kemah, TX Olympic October 21
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