or...this...

yeah, babe.

I have a big problem with one trying to 'put into perspective' killings happening everyday in Israel, Iraq, China, blah, blah.

Killing period.. is wrong. I wish we could get back to ribbing one another about weight, how one's profiled on a tri-bike, or some other banal topic instead.

Enjoy your day nonetheless.

- mike

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kestrel driver


DonorsChoose.org (!!!)
bogolight.com (!!!)

Give me a break. So we should invade another country not related to the terrorism attacks? That makes you feel better?

Also, there is no way the Republican controlled congress would have let Clinton do any major military congress back then.

Sorry! Peace Offering

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Pre-9-11, I would have agreed with you....but, we live in a different world today. Now we know that the one thing Al Qaeda desires above all else is WMD. According the book, "Ghost Wars" (a very good read about the CIA, Afghanistan, and the rise of Bin Laden), the contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda included talks about chemical weapons. Believing that Saddam harbored WMD (a notion that Saddam actively cultivated, according to the Duelfer report, largely to deter Iran), knowing that there had been contact between Al Qaeda and Iraq, the President decided he could not wait. His decision was probably hurried due to intelligence generated after the Tora Bora battle in Afghanistan (source--"America's Secret War" by George Friedman, another good read).

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

uhmmm......

ok, but only because that drink looks purrrrrrfect.

Not to me. I drank about 35 of them last week on vacation. But who's counting.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Spot,

thats all great....but the answer is really much simpler than that. We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta. It had nothing to do with WMDs, nothing to do with terrorists, nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11 and everything to do with settling an old score with Saddam....plus the Al Sauds probably wanted us to as well.

FACT #1

Iraq had no WMDs when we invaded.

FACT #2

Iraq had no links to Al Qaeda, in fact they were hostile to eachother.

FACT #3

Despite 2 years of trying to cook up ghost WMDs and ghost conspiracies the administration has not managed to find a single sliver of justification for an invasion on those grounds.

FACT #4

We are now fighting a war to "spread freedom and democracy"...it started off as a war of self defense and has now morphed into an idealogical crusade.



Wake up and smell the coffee.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"Pot calling the kettle black... " ???

Yeah and I wonder what kind of kettle you are?

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Why is that, Matt? Reality suck too much?

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Azby

I'm sure you are taking something out of context. :)

"We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta. It had nothing to do with WMDs, nothing to do with terrorists, nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11 and everything to do with settling an old score with Saddam" --

Some details, please? I try to use some sources to back up my opinions...

"Iraq had no links to Al Qaeda, in fact they were hostile to eachother."

As previously discussed, this is not a "fact"...there were indeed contacts between the two.

"Despite 2 years of trying to cook up ghost WMDs and ghost conspiracies the administration has not managed to find a single sliver of justification for an invasion on those grounds. "

It seems to me the administration has not been trying to cook up ghost WMDs for 2 years....I don't remember any claims recently by the administration that Iraq had WMD.

"We are now fighting a war to "spread freedom and democracy"...it started off as a war of self defense and has now morphed into an idealogical crusade."

If you read "The Pentagon's New Map", it will discuss why spreading freedom and democracy in this part of the world is a very important step in ending terror (and other ills). Is spreading freedom and democracy a bad thing?

"Wake up and smell the coffee."

Trot out some "facts" that are based on something other than your own conspiratorial thoughts, and I'll gladly do so.

Spot

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

That's it why didn't I think of that... it is a "Bush family vendetta". Because basicly the Bushs' like to kill people from their rich white perch up on top of the world just for sport. Give me a fucking break.

Clearly you know more about what was/is happening with terrorists than anyone in DC. Why don't you run for office. I'm sure that you could get elected in up in NorCal. (I assume that you are Matt in SF but I couldn't tell for sure because you don't list a name or location in your profile.)

Ron

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All that mistreatment of prisoners and infringing their rights ...what a load of crap. It's a war and if a little bit of coercion can help prevent a 911 or help or catch these crazies, the kind that just just did in London, what's the big hoo-har.

For those who advocate these prisoners' rights to gentle treatment I got one question - "If you had to choose, would you rather be a prisoner of American Troops in Guantano Bay or a Prisoner of fanatics in Iraq or the Abu Sayeef in the jungles of Phillipines."

Yeah the Abu Sayeff they raid the holiday beach resorts and kidnap tourists. Then after some good torture for a month or so behead them when they don't get what they want. Really nice. Two days ago there was also this beheading thing of some Thais by Muslim extremists in Southern Thailand.

By the sounds of it these Prisoners who were mistreated? I think we got the similar treatment when I was in boarding school.

Well if we're talking about Iraq consider this - Most of these killings of Iraqis that goes on everyday, is it the American troops or the fucked up crazy insurgence fanatics killing their own Muslims? The mentallity of these crazies is incredulous. Based purely on their actions, crazies are not to be understood just irradicated for the good of all mankind.

What's so bad about Bushy? The sceptics of course are saying that he's there cuz he wants the oil. At the end of the day whilst there are business opportunities for US interests it's the Iraqis who will benefit from the development of oil under a more democratic governance such as UAE, Dubai or Kuwait. When those crazy fanatics sabotage the oil fields, do you think it affects the people in Iraq more or the people in USA? It's a win-win but I'm sure those business benefits are hardly worth all this hassle.

It's a mess and invading Iraq on iffy intelligence, but what was Bushe's real intentions. I'm sure Bush would be more than happy to pullout all the troops in Iraq if he didn't have to play Mr Nice Guy image to the world and if he didn't have to prevent those crazies from just stepping in and Bombing and assasinating a few more people and set up a threat to the rest of the world.

Bushy should take it one more step, just go in and wipe out Iran cuz that's where most of the insurgence crazies are coming from and they are confirmed developing nucleur technology. It will be a good testing ground for the latest military hardware and technology.

Say what you want, given the choice of living under a Bush administration and a Sadam administration I know which I would choose. All these complex politico issues and varying hues of opinions, it's really simple when you cut thro the chase and get down to basics.

The Israelis have got the right idea. No quarter asked or given. You do a sneak terrorist bomb attack on my civillians today, tomorrow I'll blow your town to smithereens. Don't play the women and children card when collateral damage is involved because you should have consider that before you went on your bombing spree deliberately against our civillians. That's why they can survive, one tiny Nation surrounded by hostile crazies. Imagine if Israel were to say, "Oooh we can't do that it's not politically correct, we may end up like a pot calling the kettle black (as someone here has pointed out)" Reckon Israel would no longer be on the map.

Send your Chill Pill to the families of the victims.

Actually, American forces are killing more terrorists/insurgents than the other way around. You might be right about us creating more terrorists than we are killing, but that's because we have not gotten serious enough yet. We should nuke the Syrian border. Of course, libs don't like nuclear weapons and they have yet to suggest a soy based alternative that can do the same amount of damage.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

"We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta."

Mattin you've got a good imagination. Now try to imagine 911 never happened, and London now is not happening and all those likewise happenings Madrid, Bali ,daily beheadings are all only pure conjecture.

And SWoo says to give him a break. Well he can go ahead and take all the breaks he wants cuz obviously them crazy fanatics aren't taking any breaks.

USA and Bush and Presidents who have gone before in recent history may not always be on track but I for one sure like their agenda a lot better than the agendas of those crazy fanatics.

Vermins spreading death and harm to everyone else and their supporters, should be squashed ..period!

There is a solution. Send the children or grandchildren (or nephews and nieces) of all the supporters of the war in Iraq to Iraq. If you think that war is that important, let your children fight that war. Or if you're under 35, volunteer and log off the computer. Otherwise I can't take your dedication to Gulf War 2 very seriously.

Wait, I see the response of the Republicans running this country is to ask for deferments. Never mind.

http://forums.military.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/672198221/m/1790029500001/r/1430079500001

http://www.thesquadbay.com/content.php?article.1022

As stated by MATTinSF in a previous post

"thats all great....but the answer is really much simpler than that. We invaded Iraq to settle a Bush family vendetta. It had nothing to do with WMDs, nothing to do with terrorists, nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9/11 and everything to do with settling an old score with Saddam....plus the Al Sauds probably wanted us to as well.

FACT #1

Iraq had no WMDs when we invaded.

FACT #2

Iraq had no links to Al Qaeda, in fact they were hostile to eachother.

FACT #3

Despite 2 years of trying to cook up ghost WMDs and ghost conspiracies the administration has not managed to find a single sliver of justification for an invasion on those grounds.

FACT #4

We are now fighting a war to "spread freedom and democracy"...it started off as a war of self defense and has now morphed into an idealogical crusade. "


MattinSF;

I have sat here and read through all 7 pages of of this thread. I don't even know where to begin. I have spent the last 20 years of my life participating in the defense of this country, flying jets off of aircraft carriers and working on Joint Staffs. I was on the first Aircraft Carrier into the GULF before the first Gulf War and we were flying missions over the heads of Iraqis poised on the Saudi border...we stopped them in thier tracks...we made them blink. How we did it few will ever know. I was on an aircraft carrier flying support missions off the coast of Somalia as they were dragging our service men that were shot down through the streets as we were attempting to protect food shipments that were being hijacked by Somali warlords, President Clinton tied our hands in ways the public will never know about. Most recently I was at a base in Saudi Arabia before the last war started working on the Air War Plan. I have one thing to tell you and your obviously limited exposure to the real truth. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING IN REGARDS TO OUR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS IN IRAQ prior to the invasion. WE DON"T OWE YOU A PUBLIC EXPLANATION OF WHAT WE KNOW. If you want to know that info, grow some balls, join the military, attempt to qualify for a TS clearance and work your ass off for years before you ever get to the place were you are cleared to know the info.

I am currently the officer in charge of the US NAVY's west coast command center. Keep reading your liberal media and draw your own conclusions but don't ever attempt to state anything as fact that you know nothing about.

Mark

That top secret intel that told us they knew where the WMD was at every moment so that right after we took over we could not find any active programs?

The top secret intel that told us we would be welcomed with open arms and not car bombs and an insurrection?

The top secret intel that tells us exactly where OBL is so Bush can't get him five years later?

You drank so much of the koolaid you still believe it.


A democracy runs on the public making an informed decision, not trusting some bureaucrat somewhere. If you wish to run the country that way, chop up the constitution while you're at it.

Don't forget that a typical thing for liberals to say is instead of going to Iraq, we should be spending our reosurces hunting bin laden and al queda. But when we try to extract information from detainess to help prevent attacks like the ones that occured today, they are more concerned about the rights of the detainees than preventing carnage against innocent civilians.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

You evaded my question. If this Iraq war is so critical why are you not there? If you already served, sign up again, the pay gets better and better, no point in making the boys go without your enthusiastic support. If you can't go why not your children or grandchildren or nephews or nieces?