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Post deleted by Casey
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Re: Bombs in London [Casey]
[ In reply to ]
Sounds good, for sure we need to fight the war on terror with a vigilance, combined intelligence effort, identifying and going after them terrorrists.
But some may say a country like Iran is a breeding ground for terrorists goups, and the nucleur development by a country governed by some pretty staunch fanatics is also a huge threat. Also there are those saying that when OBL is eventually captured or killed there will be a backlash from crazies as he will be elevated to martyr in their eyes. It's not what I say, it's what the recognised experts are saying both Muslim and non-Muslim.
It's about the interpretation of a religion that doesn't allow for a lot of room for flexibility. And it's a religion that encompasses about 40% of the world's population? So what percentage of these guys have the kind of sympathy to become terrorists or support terrorists? So that's the magnitude of the problem. Given this can we still afford the luxury of being splinterred in our convictions to fight terror ?
Perhaps the first step is to recognize the enemy for what it is and be unitedly prepared to fight it for the long haul and hit them hard from every angle ... as what Popular George says. What other choice is there? Yes there are the very vocal sceptics, some with fantastic powers of imagination. But George getting voted for a second term, I somehow suspect that the American people know that he is committed to what he says about the war on terror and best possible protection for the country.
But some may say a country like Iran is a breeding ground for terrorists goups, and the nucleur development by a country governed by some pretty staunch fanatics is also a huge threat. Also there are those saying that when OBL is eventually captured or killed there will be a backlash from crazies as he will be elevated to martyr in their eyes. It's not what I say, it's what the recognised experts are saying both Muslim and non-Muslim.
It's about the interpretation of a religion that doesn't allow for a lot of room for flexibility. And it's a religion that encompasses about 40% of the world's population? So what percentage of these guys have the kind of sympathy to become terrorists or support terrorists? So that's the magnitude of the problem. Given this can we still afford the luxury of being splinterred in our convictions to fight terror ?
Perhaps the first step is to recognize the enemy for what it is and be unitedly prepared to fight it for the long haul and hit them hard from every angle ... as what Popular George says. What other choice is there? Yes there are the very vocal sceptics, some with fantastic powers of imagination. But George getting voted for a second term, I somehow suspect that the American people know that he is committed to what he says about the war on terror and best possible protection for the country.
Re: Bombs in London [kangaroo]
[ In reply to ]
traditional war against guerilla war and terrorism doesn't work. It's been tried before. and it failed. Why not learn from previous mistakes? Can't you see that what's going on in Iraq looks like Vietnam more and more everyday? (I agree, less trees and rain...but still...)
Re: Bombs in London [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Terrorism isn't like Vietnam is it? The terrorists and their sentimentalists are not restricted to the parameters of a country. It doesn't go away just by pulling out of Iraq or Afghanistan. Having their way prevail all over the globe is simply unacceptable.
In any case, you may have heard different, but from what I heard in Vietnam that final Tet offensive where the Vietcong came out of hiding and started their masacre on the South and their march into Saigon? That was precisely the time that they were most vulnerable. In their mass attack they were no more guerilla warfare and ripe for the picking from supererior US firepower. An analogy would be in boxing or martial arts. When your oponent is purely intent on attack, he's at his most vulnerable. The counter punch or kick he never saw as he is aggressively moving forward will be the double impact one that will drop him flat.
But of course what happened with all them hippie-yippies, flower power take more drugs, make love not war pressure caused the Americans to pull out exactly when they could have made the decisive move. I've been a soldier and gone through intensive training but not seen action. But I can't even begin to imagine them GI's seeing their friends die and mutilated, going through all that prolonged battle hardship, only to have the rug pulled out from under them and return home to the US with all them hippies ragging them. That would really be one big suck to the max.
Vietnam and the world is worse off for it. Just look at the type of commie-capitalists they are breeding now. Not exactly good citizens of the world. And Dude don't tell me generalizations don't apply even in extremes of behaviour. Look to the nationalistic fervour of Japan in WWII, the Nazis in WW11, the Crazy mentality of general women kidnaping, raping an maiming which has become the norm inn the Congo and the large enough proportion of Muslims who empathise with Muslim based terrorism. I remember the fervour in the streets of Argentine during the Falklands crisis, the same kind of behaviour you see where mobs in Palestine are burning flags and firing weapons in the air, then the British came in and cleaned house on the Falklands in one decisive move. Suddenly all the Argentinians became 'normal' again. BTW in VN throwing acid and blinding and disfiguring, often resulting in death is an everyday affair.
Francois I don't know whether you see it, but bad general behavioral traits en masse whether it's a short term fervour or something that permeates culture and daily behaviour of a people is not such an unreality as some here have sarcastically criticised me for pointing out.
What Vietnam teaches me is the importance of unity against the enemy. What it teaches me is vocal dissedants sitting comfortably on their democratic asses can do more harm than the enemy themselves. And the Administration voted in; though many would have us believe it, are not fools who prioritize some covert agendas over the security of our home and the advance of a democratic world better for all. After all they only have four year terms at a time where the people can then decide who to have running the show again.
Yes Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorism is a lot more complex and involved than just an isolated Vietnam War. As such the stakes are much much higher and the results much more solemn if we were to make the same mistakes made in the Vietnam War. The mistake of disunity in the fight against the enemy. With this kind of evil widespread threat we need a no pulling punches strategy at all levels, forms and sources of the threat.
In any case, you may have heard different, but from what I heard in Vietnam that final Tet offensive where the Vietcong came out of hiding and started their masacre on the South and their march into Saigon? That was precisely the time that they were most vulnerable. In their mass attack they were no more guerilla warfare and ripe for the picking from supererior US firepower. An analogy would be in boxing or martial arts. When your oponent is purely intent on attack, he's at his most vulnerable. The counter punch or kick he never saw as he is aggressively moving forward will be the double impact one that will drop him flat.
But of course what happened with all them hippie-yippies, flower power take more drugs, make love not war pressure caused the Americans to pull out exactly when they could have made the decisive move. I've been a soldier and gone through intensive training but not seen action. But I can't even begin to imagine them GI's seeing their friends die and mutilated, going through all that prolonged battle hardship, only to have the rug pulled out from under them and return home to the US with all them hippies ragging them. That would really be one big suck to the max.
Vietnam and the world is worse off for it. Just look at the type of commie-capitalists they are breeding now. Not exactly good citizens of the world. And Dude don't tell me generalizations don't apply even in extremes of behaviour. Look to the nationalistic fervour of Japan in WWII, the Nazis in WW11, the Crazy mentality of general women kidnaping, raping an maiming which has become the norm inn the Congo and the large enough proportion of Muslims who empathise with Muslim based terrorism. I remember the fervour in the streets of Argentine during the Falklands crisis, the same kind of behaviour you see where mobs in Palestine are burning flags and firing weapons in the air, then the British came in and cleaned house on the Falklands in one decisive move. Suddenly all the Argentinians became 'normal' again. BTW in VN throwing acid and blinding and disfiguring, often resulting in death is an everyday affair.
Francois I don't know whether you see it, but bad general behavioral traits en masse whether it's a short term fervour or something that permeates culture and daily behaviour of a people is not such an unreality as some here have sarcastically criticised me for pointing out.
What Vietnam teaches me is the importance of unity against the enemy. What it teaches me is vocal dissedants sitting comfortably on their democratic asses can do more harm than the enemy themselves. And the Administration voted in; though many would have us believe it, are not fools who prioritize some covert agendas over the security of our home and the advance of a democratic world better for all. After all they only have four year terms at a time where the people can then decide who to have running the show again.
Yes Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorism is a lot more complex and involved than just an isolated Vietnam War. As such the stakes are much much higher and the results much more solemn if we were to make the same mistakes made in the Vietnam War. The mistake of disunity in the fight against the enemy. With this kind of evil widespread threat we need a no pulling punches strategy at all levels, forms and sources of the threat.
Re: Bombs in London [kangaroo]
[ In reply to ]
But the war in Iraq is taking the same turn as the war in Vietnam. Of course the war on terror isn't like Vietnam and you know full well, this is not what I said in the first post...
I was just saying that conventional war is just not the way to go. Not the way to go in Iraq, not the way to go against terror
I was just saying that conventional war is just not the way to go. Not the way to go in Iraq, not the way to go against terror
Re: Bombs in London [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Bombs in London [Trevor S]
[ In reply to ]
the war in Iraq is over? Funny, it's not what my friends who came back from there recently and working at Fort Bliss told me...they all tell me that people still die every day.
Re: Bombs in London [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Well if you're looking at it from the hit and run guerilla tactics ... yes it is. But if you consider the enemy who he is. He is not comprising of a local segment fighting for an ideology to rule within his own country. The enemy comprises largely of insurgence, fighting from a fanatic misguided belief perpetuated by the most influential motivation known to man ie religion. Iraq now represents a battle between Muslim fundamentalists who regard all outside the religion as inconsequential and democracy as we know and live and take for granted in. It is a mini battle reflecting the conflict of ideologies, where one idealogy is user friendly to all whilst the other is separatist, barbaric and elitist with strict restrictions to concepts of freedom of choice. So Iraq is not just Iraq and the outcome will have a huge ripple effect. That's why no matter what, we need to stay united and make sure we win out this one no matter ...unlike Vietnam.
That's why I get worried when I see vocal dissention from people in our very own democracies. This time we cannot afford another Vietnam ending cuz the stakes are so very different.
Those on the side of democracy besides wanting a democratic world free for all to live in and free of terrorists also want an Iraq that can become peaceful and start to regenerate and rebuild for it's inhabitants to have better opportunities in a more democratic way of life. Becoming a trading partner and negitiating some concessions in terms of oil reproduction and trade is a small price for Iraqis to come out of the dark ages and into a world of freedom, choice and civilized standard of living. All developing countries, all those around the world which have become or are now becoming affluent have come up through a foundation of support from the developed countries. Fanatic fundamentalists have no interest in any people having a better way of life, no logical foundation to their agenda, just a way of life dictated by their fanatical interpretations of an inflexible religion back to the dark ages and back to an attitude dangerous to all others around them. Whatever it takes because they kill even other Muslim's wholesale, who they feel are obstacles to their objectives shaped by their hardened beliefs.
Let's face it, like it or not there is no way to avoid another London bombing. But by keeping united and vigilant at home, by using whatever means to improve our security and by pounding them wherever they live whether it be in their financial network, in our home, in their home and in their supporters' home can we reduce the threat and ever hope to one day irradicate such problem. These crazies have never say die attitudes, literally, so in our democracies can we afford to falter in our resolve?
Those of us who verbal bash the very ones who protect us like to mention the Iraq war contributing to bring on more conflict to ourselves. In case they forgot it was 911 first then Iraq and not the other way round. Crazzies brought the war right to our door step and into our home in the worse way and these verbal bashers still want to deliberate? ...and speculate? Some who even expouse the falling Twin Towers like the Men from Mars is a homegrown conspiracy .
That's why I get worried when I see vocal dissention from people in our very own democracies. This time we cannot afford another Vietnam ending cuz the stakes are so very different.
Those on the side of democracy besides wanting a democratic world free for all to live in and free of terrorists also want an Iraq that can become peaceful and start to regenerate and rebuild for it's inhabitants to have better opportunities in a more democratic way of life. Becoming a trading partner and negitiating some concessions in terms of oil reproduction and trade is a small price for Iraqis to come out of the dark ages and into a world of freedom, choice and civilized standard of living. All developing countries, all those around the world which have become or are now becoming affluent have come up through a foundation of support from the developed countries. Fanatic fundamentalists have no interest in any people having a better way of life, no logical foundation to their agenda, just a way of life dictated by their fanatical interpretations of an inflexible religion back to the dark ages and back to an attitude dangerous to all others around them. Whatever it takes because they kill even other Muslim's wholesale, who they feel are obstacles to their objectives shaped by their hardened beliefs.
Let's face it, like it or not there is no way to avoid another London bombing. But by keeping united and vigilant at home, by using whatever means to improve our security and by pounding them wherever they live whether it be in their financial network, in our home, in their home and in their supporters' home can we reduce the threat and ever hope to one day irradicate such problem. These crazies have never say die attitudes, literally, so in our democracies can we afford to falter in our resolve?
Those of us who verbal bash the very ones who protect us like to mention the Iraq war contributing to bring on more conflict to ourselves. In case they forgot it was 911 first then Iraq and not the other way round. Crazzies brought the war right to our door step and into our home in the worse way and these verbal bashers still want to deliberate? ...and speculate? Some who even expouse the falling Twin Towers like the Men from Mars is a homegrown conspiracy .
Post deleted by Casey
[ In reply to ]
Re: Bombs in London [Francois]
[ In reply to ]
Even though Iraq is nothing at alll like Vietnam I see you point but there is one problem, we are already in Iraq. I was for the war in the begining but using everyones favorite friend, hindsight, I now see it was a mistake. How ever I have to say we must keep on.
Everyone is doing a fantastic job slamming Bush for going into Iraq but not alot of people are giving good ideas on what we should do now, probably because Bush is doing what we should do now.
Bush made a mistake and won an election with that mistake. Let's talk future and present shall we.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Everyone is doing a fantastic job slamming Bush for going into Iraq but not alot of people are giving good ideas on what we should do now, probably because Bush is doing what we should do now.
Bush made a mistake and won an election with that mistake. Let's talk future and present shall we.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Re: Bombs in London [Casey]
[ In reply to ]
Casey allow me to string some things together and see what we come up with -
1) This Terrorist threat we face does not come from a tangible enemy.
2) Religion unlike what religious folks would have us believe is not God send but man made and well documented in history.
3) In the Muslim religion this belief is taken one step further because the Koran is an exact replica, photocopy of a table in Heaven kept by Allah.
4) Therefore there is no interpretation of the meaning just exact and full acceptance word for word.
5) In the old days of Muhammed when the religion was being formed for the nomadic harsh society in a harsh land it all made sense. It's no wonder eating disease ridden pigs is prohibitted, women have to cover up head to toe and basically be under house arrest, laws exacting chopping off hands and beheadings for slightest infringements, outsiders were regarded as less than human and accorded the same.
6) But these unyielding beliefs and barbaric ways for today's applications? Well the religion even accomodates Muslims killing Muslims without any recourse or punishment. In fact the ones perpetuating such killings regard themselves as religious Martyrs ie Jihad. We don't see many of the religious leaders making efforts to change the interpretations of a Religion with set in stone directives and are conspicuous by their absence during slaughterings perpetuated by their Muslim fold on fellow Muslims.
Ironic? Whoever said religion had to be logical.
7) Demographic breakdown of Muslims -
(a) Well educated TRULY MODERATE Muslims, a very small proportion and they know the score and don't see the light at the end of the tunnel either.
(b) Educated Muslims who aren't really that moderate because they believe and feel for the Muslim brotherhood thing taught by their religion above all else, logic and common decency included. Majority may not perpetuate violence but they certainly in their hearts condone it against the infedels even though many of these types live in and enjoy the the freedoms, opportunities and lifestyle the democracy they live in affords them.
(c) The mass proportion are not educated in the way you and I know but are well schooled in the fundamentalist teachings of their religion. In fact they practice it several times a day everyday and attend long religious classes and meetings to boot.
(d) and last but not least the Terrorists. They come from demographic segments (b) and (c). And their belief is that it is their God given duty to make sure that their religion is upheld to the letter , especially in their countries of majority Muslims and it is also their duty to attack democracy anyway they can, better still in the soft belly of the infedel's homeland because they are a threat to the purity of their Islam. Such attacks, Jihad is the most glorious.
It's not politically correct to criticise religion especially one that encompasses 40% of the world's population. Bush, Blair and co could not say it openly for sure. But these are the raw facts and before you can fight your enemy you need to know him first.
So what do you think is needed to fight this war on terror?
Yes Francois this war against terrorism is anything but conventional.
1) This Terrorist threat we face does not come from a tangible enemy.
2) Religion unlike what religious folks would have us believe is not God send but man made and well documented in history.
3) In the Muslim religion this belief is taken one step further because the Koran is an exact replica, photocopy of a table in Heaven kept by Allah.
4) Therefore there is no interpretation of the meaning just exact and full acceptance word for word.
5) In the old days of Muhammed when the religion was being formed for the nomadic harsh society in a harsh land it all made sense. It's no wonder eating disease ridden pigs is prohibitted, women have to cover up head to toe and basically be under house arrest, laws exacting chopping off hands and beheadings for slightest infringements, outsiders were regarded as less than human and accorded the same.
6) But these unyielding beliefs and barbaric ways for today's applications? Well the religion even accomodates Muslims killing Muslims without any recourse or punishment. In fact the ones perpetuating such killings regard themselves as religious Martyrs ie Jihad. We don't see many of the religious leaders making efforts to change the interpretations of a Religion with set in stone directives and are conspicuous by their absence during slaughterings perpetuated by their Muslim fold on fellow Muslims.
Ironic? Whoever said religion had to be logical.
7) Demographic breakdown of Muslims -
(a) Well educated TRULY MODERATE Muslims, a very small proportion and they know the score and don't see the light at the end of the tunnel either.
(b) Educated Muslims who aren't really that moderate because they believe and feel for the Muslim brotherhood thing taught by their religion above all else, logic and common decency included. Majority may not perpetuate violence but they certainly in their hearts condone it against the infedels even though many of these types live in and enjoy the the freedoms, opportunities and lifestyle the democracy they live in affords them.
(c) The mass proportion are not educated in the way you and I know but are well schooled in the fundamentalist teachings of their religion. In fact they practice it several times a day everyday and attend long religious classes and meetings to boot.
(d) and last but not least the Terrorists. They come from demographic segments (b) and (c). And their belief is that it is their God given duty to make sure that their religion is upheld to the letter , especially in their countries of majority Muslims and it is also their duty to attack democracy anyway they can, better still in the soft belly of the infedel's homeland because they are a threat to the purity of their Islam. Such attacks, Jihad is the most glorious.
It's not politically correct to criticise religion especially one that encompasses 40% of the world's population. Bush, Blair and co could not say it openly for sure. But these are the raw facts and before you can fight your enemy you need to know him first.
So what do you think is needed to fight this war on terror?
Yes Francois this war against terrorism is anything but conventional.
Re: Bombs in London [kangaroo]
[ In reply to ]
Barbaric mentality / modern weapons ... nice mix.
Re: Bombs in London [Kanipupski]
[ In reply to ]
Intersting update that I just heard from the BBC Radio news. 6 homes in Leeds (Northern England) were raided this morning from evidence that police collected from the wreckage of the bus. IT seems that the bomber was killed when his bomb went off (intentionally or otherwise).Follow the link for full details :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4674463.stm
"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4674463.stm
"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
Post deleted by Casey
[ In reply to ]
Quite.
"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS