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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I did not notice any difference on the flats. Was the hills that felt funny.

I am taking all these inputs to heart and will be trying stuff.

Here's where a power meter can be such a potent analysis aid. In very short order you would be able to observe that you actually are outputting the same or perhaps more or maybe less power with the shorter cranks on the climb. You might see a very slight uptick in cadence to match the really high foot speed necessary to spin 200mm cranks at 85 to 90rpm is all that's needed to to be back on track. Right now you're just guessing based on things "feeling funny".

YMMV,

Dave

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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The whole short crank things started with a study with the end result showing that shorter cranks correlates to lower oxygen consumption while riding while power was unchanged. The end result means that you are more efficient with shorter cranks. This study is referenced in the article below, I'm sure you can find it if you look up the name of the guy who ran it.

https://www.cervelo.com/...spin-on-crank-length
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
This is one reason I have such a tough bike about bike fit. Some say something is bad, other say good. I just keep asking how does one verify something is better or worse with numbers? //

Ok Dave, take a deep breath. IT looks like you really want help here and you are getting it. If you look very closely at most all the responses, they are all in agreement. There is not one side and then the opposite side, but I know you like to see things that way sometimes. No-one here is attacking you. What everyone is telling you is probably right, it is just degrees of tiny separation in their advice. And people in the know that are 5'10" like me are not riding 175's anymore, I ride 155's, probably should be on 150's.


So get the shorter cranks back on, raise your saddle(as it appears you did in fact lower it last time) mover it back, up the stem a bit and begin from that point. You cannot use the old(very old) heel on the pedal for seat height, especially when you are a size 14 shoe. That is what Schwinn shops used to do for your fit, right after you hopped over the top tube to see if you cleared it. Things have changed.


Good news is that it appears you have a lot wrong going on, so you may be looking at some low hanging fruit in bike speed. And just another note too, a 59 could very well be bigger than a 61, bikes are measured much differently now too. It all depends on what measurement you are going for, that is why stack and reach was invented( by you know who). Then you can go to Dans data base and actually see what bikes would fit you best, good to know even if you are not in the market...

Monty, I have no issues with any of the inputs. I knew posting what I should expect, and actually and pleased they have all been constructive. Trust me, I am reading them all and asking, what is my next step. I have to admit that even though I have spent a LOT of money on 200 cranks, if going back to shorter stuff and trying again might help me, I am all willing to give it a try again. When I did it last time did I adjust stuff correctly? No idea to be honest, been too long.

One of the biggest things hitting me now is just the size of my bike, starting with the reach. The existing 61 2009 P2 I am riding has a reach of 446. But the Yaqui that I bought fitted by Ves, size 59, has a reach of 480. Huge difference. This is one reason I put on the 140 stem on the P2 was to try and set it up the same as the Yaqui I was fitted for.

Am going to put my stack and reach into Dans thread and see if any bikes are make now with a long reach. My guess is no.

When I look at the Bike I believe Matt Reed is riding, the Fuji, the largest frame reach is only 449, so not sure how Matt fits on it other than if you give me a free bike, I would ride anything.

So, is anyone aware of any Triathlons bikes being make with a long reach, like my Yaqui 480 has? And that was only a 59 size. If I remember threads from the past, I think I remember that frame builders have gone to short reaches and tall stacks?






Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I did not notice any difference on the flats. Was the hills that felt funny.

I am taking all these inputs to heart and will be trying stuff.


Here's where a power meter can be such a potent analysis aid. In very short order you would be able to observe that you actually are outputting the same or perhaps more or maybe less power with the shorter cranks on the climb. You might see a very slight uptick in cadence to match the really high foot speed necessary to spin 200mm cranks at 85 to 90rpm is all that's needed to to be back on track. Right now you're just guessing based on things "feeling funny".

YMMV,

Dave

I am using the power meter on my Velotron. When I was spinning 200's vs 185's, I saw no difference for one data point.
So am trying to do this now on more than a feeling. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Make your own frame like I did. Stack of a 52cm frame with reach of a 62cm. Not that that's what you want, you don't ride aggressive anyway. Off season is the time to experiment. I think your frame is fine until you are sure you have perimeters it cant accommodate.
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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you are getting ahead of yourself. don't be looking for a bike size just yet, first figure out where you do best, then find the bike that works with that
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I did not notice any difference on the flats. Was the hills that felt funny.

I am taking all these inputs to heart and will be trying stuff.


Here's where a power meter can be such a potent analysis aid. In very short order you would be able to observe that you actually are outputting the same or perhaps more or maybe less power with the shorter cranks on the climb. You might see a very slight uptick in cadence to match the really high foot speed necessary to spin 200mm cranks at 85 to 90rpm is all that's needed to to be back on track. Right now you're just guessing based on things "feeling funny".

YMMV,

Dave


I am using the power meter on my Velotron. When I was spinning 200's vs 185's, I saw no difference for one data point.
So am trying to do this now on more than a feeling. :)

While the Velotron is a nice unit , it's not a real hill and you'll never really know what you're actually doing outdoors in the real world without a power meter on the bike as you ride up actual hills. How many watts did you output on the steep pitch of Mclean Creek Road off of Skaha Lake? Any clue? How about your average for the whole climb? It would seem such a natural complement to the indoor training you're already doing on the Velotron.

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,
This is turning out exactly like I thought it would...it's a cluster f#$k of ideas, angles, stem lengths and bike sizes. Not all totally wrong, not all totally right.

It will be almost impossible to pick through all the good suggestions..

My advice to you is pick one person you value/trust and place yourself in their hands.

ST is bending over backward to help you here but I just think it would be easier and more time efficient if you went to a fitting session with someone you trust (a big ask, I know)

Spend a few bucks, give up some control and let'r roll.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
The whole short crank things started with a study with the end result showing that shorter cranks correlates to lower oxygen consumption while riding while power was unchanged. The end result means that you are more efficient with shorter cranks. This study is referenced in the article below, I'm sure you can find it if you look up the name of the guy who ran it.

https://www.cervelo.com/...spin-on-crank-length

Interesting.

I thought these comments in the article were interesting.

Some athletes keep their long cranks and still perform well. Some try short cranks, aren’t happy with the results, and switch back again.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I did not notice any difference on the flats. Was the hills that felt funny.

I am taking all these inputs to heart and will be trying stuff.


Here's where a power meter can be such a potent analysis aid. In very short order you would be able to observe that you actually are outputting the same or perhaps more or maybe less power with the shorter cranks on the climb. You might see a very slight uptick in cadence to match the really high foot speed necessary to spin 200mm cranks at 85 to 90rpm is all that's needed to to be back on track. Right now you're just guessing based on things "feeling funny".

YMMV,

Dave


I am using the power meter on my Velotron. When I was spinning 200's vs 185's, I saw no difference for one data point.
So am trying to do this now on more than a feeling. :)


While the Velotron is a nice unit , it's not a real hill and you'll never really know what you're actually doing outdoors in the real world without a power meter on the bike as you ride up actual hills. How many watts did you output on the steep pitch of Mclean Creek Road off of Skaha Lake? Any clue? How about your average for the whole climb? It would seem such a natural complement to the indoor training you're already doing on the Velotron.

Fair

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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stringcheese wrote:


Dave,
This is turning out exactly like I thought it would...it's a cluster f#$k of ideas, angles, stem lengths and bike sizes. Not all totally wrong, not all totally right.

It will be almost impossible to pick through all the good suggestions..

My advice to you is pick one person you value/trust and place yourself in their hands.

ST is bending over backward to help you here but I just think it would be easier and more time efficient if you went to a fitting session with someone you trust (a big ask, I know)

Spend a few bucks, give up some control and let'r roll.

No actually I think the comments are great!!!!!!!

I did ask Dan for a suggestion of a fitter who has worked with very tall folks around where I live and did not hear anything back. So, I am trying.

Now, with that being said, I am just on the way up in my garage to see if I still have the 175 compact cranks. I still have getting a lot more inputs to try the 175's again, with making sure I have things like seat height correct. Based on my crappy bike this season, what do I have to lose? But, I sure can tell the difference riding my trainer with fixed watts when I lose the leverage. But in real life I guess I would be changing my gearing so probably not a fair test.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a video from my bike fit I had on Wed. The seat was moved back -50mm from the BB. Stem was changed from a 140 to a 100mm. Cranks 175mm for this fitting.
Comment away :)





Figure might as well have folks comment on both threads if they want. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [ktm520] [ In reply to ]
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ktm520 wrote:
[/quote

What should it be?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Your seat is still too low. Mentioned by almost every post in this thread.
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Here is a video from my bike fit I had on Wed. The seat was moved back -50mm from the BB. Stem was changed from a 140 to a 100mm. Cranks 175mm for this fitting.
Comment away :)





Figure might as well have folks comment on both threads if they want. :)

Heard: "Pull your right knee in" and immediately stopped. Whoever did this "fit" is a charlatan. FFS, just go see a real profession and stop wasting everyone's time.
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
ktm520 wrote:
[/quote

What should it be?

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../Seat_height_21.html

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

From what I can read, there is no science behind cranks lengths. Lots of opinions, but no real numbers.

But, I am staying open minded

You are not staying open minded. You are biased towards your 200mm cranks because you "feel" they help you. There in fact have been studies done. For sub-threshold efforts going to shorter cranks will not impact you at all, actually studies have shown a lower heart rate. The only place crank length has been shown to have an impact is on sprints where leverage can play a role. So with respect to triathlon get a crank length that optimizes your bike fit and quit worrying about power so much. Your low hanging fruit is position.

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [JustinNorCal] [ In reply to ]
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JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


From what I can read, there is no science behind cranks lengths. Lots of opinions, but no real numbers.

But, I am staying open minded


You are not staying open minded. You are biased towards your 200mm cranks because you "feel" they help you. There in fact have been studies done. For sub-threshold efforts going to shorter cranks will not impact you at all, actually studies have shown a lower heart rate. The only place crank length has been shown to have an impact is on sprints where leverage can play a role. So with respect to triathlon get a crank length that optimizes your bike fit and quit worrying about power so much. Your low hanging fruit is position.

Why do you and others keep bringing up the 200 cranks? And why do shorter folks judge what us taller folks might like? And why are shorter folks not using like 150's for the fit you say is correct?

I just got a fit that folks were attacking me for not getting. So I put up a video and do you post with comments? Nope. You did read I did this fit with 175's, right?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


From what I can read, there is no science behind cranks lengths. Lots of opinions, but no real numbers.

But, I am staying open minded


You are not staying open minded. You are biased towards your 200mm cranks because you "feel" they help you. There in fact have been studies done. For sub-threshold efforts going to shorter cranks will not impact you at all, actually studies have shown a lower heart rate. The only place crank length has been shown to have an impact is on sprints where leverage can play a role. So with respect to triathlon get a crank length that optimizes your bike fit and quit worrying about power so much. Your low hanging fruit is position.


Why do you and others keep bringing up the 200 cranks? And why do shorter folks judge what us taller folks might like? And why are shorter folks not using like 150's for the fit you say is correct?

I just got a fit that folks were attacking me for not getting. So I put up a video and do you post with comments? Nope. You did read I did this fit with 175's, right?


You brought them up in your first post. You also continually argue with experts in their field. Jim@Eros for instance gave you some solid free advice and you questioned it like he was dumb. He would not tell you to raise seat if you didn't need to.

For record I am 5'10" and ride much shorter cranks than 175mm to answer your question. You also fail to realize it's not just about height, but also flexibility. Several pros ride 175 cranks who are shorter than you but obviously have flexibility to do so and are in very aggressive aero positions. Out of curiosity why haven't you gone to say Athleticamps in Folsom for a proper fit? They have worked with many professional and top level cyclist and triathletes for fitting and are a short drive from you.

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA
Last edited by: JustinNorCal: Sep 30, 17 11:01
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [JustinNorCal] [ In reply to ]
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JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


From what I can read, there is no science behind cranks lengths. Lots of opinions, but no real numbers.

But, I am staying open minded


You are not staying open minded. You are biased towards your 200mm cranks because you "feel" they help you. There in fact have been studies done. For sub-threshold efforts going to shorter cranks will not impact you at all, actually studies have shown a lower heart rate. The only place crank length has been shown to have an impact is on sprints where leverage can play a role. So with respect to triathlon get a crank length that optimizes your bike fit and quit worrying about power so much. Your low hanging fruit is position.


Why do you and others keep bringing up the 200 cranks? And why do shorter folks judge what us taller folks might like? And why are shorter folks not using like 150's for the fit you say is correct?

I just got a fit that folks were attacking me for not getting. So I put up a video and do you post with comments? Nope. You did read I did this fit with 175's, right?


You brought them up in your first post. You also continually argue with experts in their field. Jim@Eros for instance gave you some solid free advice and you questioned it like he was dumb. He would not tell you to raise seat if you didn't need to.

For record I am 5'10" and ride much shorter cranks than 175mm to answer your question. You also fail to realize it's not just about height, but also flexibility. Several pros ride 175 cranks who are shorter than you but obviously have flexibility to do so and are in very aggressive aero positions. Out of curiosity why haven't you gone to say Athleticamps in Folsom for a proper fit? They have worked with many professional and top level cyclist and triathletes for fitting and are a short drive from you.

Are you saying only one place have folks that can do a "proper" fit.

I have never said anything someone has suggested is dumb. An until I loaded my new setup with a fit last night, I had not had a setup with inputs. And yep, did I take inputs from folks with the fitter? Yep!! Seat is way back. It is up. (Might need to be some more. We measured 140 with the fitting but my heel was back) The bars are back. So, why are you saying I did not take inputs?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


From what I can read, there is no science behind cranks lengths. Lots of opinions, but no real numbers.

But, I am staying open minded


You are not staying open minded. You are biased towards your 200mm cranks because you "feel" they help you. There in fact have been studies done. For sub-threshold efforts going to shorter cranks will not impact you at all, actually studies have shown a lower heart rate. The only place crank length has been shown to have an impact is on sprints where leverage can play a role. So with respect to triathlon get a crank length that optimizes your bike fit and quit worrying about power so much. Your low hanging fruit is position.


Why do you and others keep bringing up the 200 cranks? And why do shorter folks judge what us taller folks might like? And why are shorter folks not using like 150's for the fit you say is correct?

I just got a fit that folks were attacking me for not getting. So I put up a video and do you post with comments? Nope. You did read I did this fit with 175's, right?


You brought them up in your first post. You also continually argue with experts in their field. Jim@Eros for instance gave you some solid free advice and you questioned it like he was dumb. He would not tell you to raise seat if you didn't need to.

For record I am 5'10" and ride much shorter cranks than 175mm to answer your question. You also fail to realize it's not just about height, but also flexibility. Several pros ride 175 cranks who are shorter than you but obviously have flexibility to do so and are in very aggressive aero positions. Out of curiosity why haven't you gone to say Athleticamps in Folsom for a proper fit? They have worked with many professional and top level cyclist and triathletes for fitting and are a short drive from you.

Are you saying only one place have folks that can do a "proper" fit.

I have never said anything someone has suggested is dumb. An until I loaded my new setup with a fit last night, I had not had a setup with inputs. And yep, did I take inputs from folks with the fitter? Yep!! Seat is way back. It is up. (Might need to be some more. We measured 140 with the fitting but my heel was back) The bars are back. So, why are you saying I did not take inputs?

No but they are the most qualified place that is centrally located to you.

This thread and internet bike fit is going to take you 10x longer than it would if you went to them. You would be doing yourself a massive favor to go see them. You have a billion Velotrons so spending money on the fit shouldn't be an issue.

_________________________________
Fit Endurance Coaching - Head Coach|Facebook
USAT L1 Coach | BikeFit Certified Fitter | Contributing Writer - Triathlete Magazine | ROKA
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [JustinNorCal] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
JustinNorCal wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


From what I can read, there is no science behind cranks lengths. Lots of opinions, but no real numbers.

But, I am staying open minded


You are not staying open minded. You are biased towards your 200mm cranks because you "feel" they help you. There in fact have been studies done. For sub-threshold efforts going to shorter cranks will not impact you at all, actually studies have shown a lower heart rate. The only place crank length has been shown to have an impact is on sprints where leverage can play a role. So with respect to triathlon get a crank length that optimizes your bike fit and quit worrying about power so much. Your low hanging fruit is position.


Why do you and others keep bringing up the 200 cranks? And why do shorter folks judge what us taller folks might like? And why are shorter folks not using like 150's for the fit you say is correct?

I just got a fit that folks were attacking me for not getting. So I put up a video and do you post with comments? Nope. You did read I did this fit with 175's, right?


You brought them up in your first post. You also continually argue with experts in their field. Jim@Eros for instance gave you some solid free advice and you questioned it like he was dumb. He would not tell you to raise seat if you didn't need to.

For record I am 5'10" and ride much shorter cranks than 175mm to answer your question. You also fail to realize it's not just about height, but also flexibility. Several pros ride 175 cranks who are shorter than you but obviously have flexibility to do so and are in very aggressive aero positions. Out of curiosity why haven't you gone to say Athleticamps in Folsom for a proper fit? They have worked with many professional and top level cyclist and triathletes for fitting and are a short drive from you.


Are you saying only one place have folks that can do a "proper" fit.

I have never said anything someone has suggested is dumb. An until I loaded my new setup with a fit last night, I had not had a setup with inputs. And yep, did I take inputs from folks with the fitter? Yep!! Seat is way back. It is up. (Might need to be some more. We measured 140 with the fitting but my heel was back) The bars are back. So, why are you saying I did not take inputs?


No but they are the most qualified place that is centrally located to you.

This thread and internet bike fit is going to take you 10x longer than it would if you went to them. You would be doing yourself a massive favor to go see them. You have a billion Velotrons so spending money on the fit shouldn't be an issue.

I just had a fit!! I just posted the video. So, what are you saying is wrong with the fit I got?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Your seat is too low. As has been said in this thread 3 or 4 times already.
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Re: Bike fit Critique time for h2ofun [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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lol stop feeding him already
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