I meant that I did a recovery spin and am still feeling Tuesdays effort. Didn't say the recovery spin was 100 tss.

and there are no g-forces on the trainer, which can be steady state, while the velodrome really isn't steady state due to the turns

you can get better at handling it with practice =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Indeed.

Is your "vanity" FTP, actually your real FTP ?

So if a 20 minute FTP test is too short to be accurate (generally gives a number artificially high) and the full hour is too long (gives us a number than we can probably exceed) then maybe the best time to test for FTP in training conditions would be in the 45-50 minute range?

And holy crap I cannot believe Jack's live-in domestic pro holds 560 watts for a minute. Crazy.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Or test multiple durations and find the asymptote .................

I guess I'm not riding hard enough. From now on I think I'll do my intervals at 115% until I piss a little and then take a few minutes recovery and repeat.

In terms of aerobic development, would a continuous 60 minutes right at your FTP be a worthwhile training session (maybe once or twice a week, with all other sessions being L2/L3)? My rationale is that, since it's an hour long, it must be almost entirely aerobic, and since it's a maximal effort, it must provide the maximum aerobic training stimulus you can cram into an hour (well, an hour of steady state training anyway). Am I crazy? Or just ignorant?

I didn't read the other responses, but I definitely wouldn't advise that. People have different ideas about "full FTP" though. For me a max effort means cross-eyed, tunnel vision, coughing blood, legs unable to pedal, etc... by the end. I only do that in a race I care about. Otherwise I dial it back a few % and it's a lot less stressful. In training it makes more sense to dial back the *time* and split it into segments. Hence the 2x20.

The other thing I'd suggest is mixing in some harder intervals to your training... L5 and L6. If you have a short race coming up (1 hr of less) then favor higher intensity and less volume in your peak period.

any cyclist can ride fine the next day after an hour at 100%, hell, I have done back to back 40k TT race days and had no problem riding the next day

I'm either very envious, or you aren't going 100% on the first day. 98-99% maybe. 100% anything is a major strain on the body. Even when I was a youngster it took a few days to recover.

That's one issue I've always had with the TSS formula. As you get nearer a true 100% effort the stress ramps up exponentially.

ha ha ... no doubt. But that's because the Kickr reads 20w higher that what you are actually doing. So your 300w FTP interval is really only 93%

:-)

No, I'm not just referring to a inaccurate watt reading. I do my FTP tests indoors on the Kickr, and verify in erg mode so the FTP number on the Kickr is what I'm using, not some outdoor number. Even if the Kickr FTP is -20 from powertap outdoor measured numbers, its still my absolute 100% on a FTP test.

Even with that correctly tested indoor FTP, it's absolutely significantly easier to do FTP-type workouts on a Kickr than on a fluid trainer for the reasons I mentioned above. I'd estimate having to add 5-10% of intensity to the slider to make it approximate a fluid trainer.

yes, just teasing. I agree with you. For me it seems to be a matter of being able to select the 'right' (most comfortable) cadence while in erg mode at a given power level. On a fluid trainer or in level mode it's often hard to get a gear/cadence ratio that feels right.

For me, it's less just a cadence issue. It's the matter of fluctating constantly over/below FTP or whatever near-FTP target number you are seeking on a fluid trainer. A 5 watt different at 80% FTP is no big deal, but a +7-10 watt differential up and under FTP for hard intervals can make a totally doable interval seem impossible. (That's the variance I get with a fluid trainer regardless of how carefully I pedal.)

you don't actually piss, you just feel like you are about to

as close to 100% as I ever get on the TT bike. recovery has never been a problem, even on 5 min interval days with equal rest, I can repeat the next day. 2 years ago, I was doing vo2 daysx2 then one easier day, repeat for 3 weeks. (5min and 2.5 min alternating days with equal recovery periods and would end up doing 6-8, 5 min and 11-17, 2.5 min until I wasn't hitting 95% of the 3rd interval power(was the goal point at the time)

would have liked to have known how big a hole I was in, but about then I ended up with huge power drops in all my races and practice races. when I strapped on an HRM, I figured out why, my SVT from 2 years prior had returned viciously

pretty sure my ftp setting is not too low, maybe it is, but I have had a ctl over 100 for 2 straight years, and I have an off season where it drops 20-30%

TSS = 100 x duration (h) x IF^2.

Note also that the weighting used for TSS closely parallels that used by Foster for session RPE:

Ya, just saying it doesn't ramp up as much as the stress ramps up when I get near 100%. Asymptotic. Like how close can you get to it actually killing you? An extra 1% can make a huge difference.

I've had a lot of practice doing weekly TTs for years at *almost* 100%. I can recover much better from that than a true 100%. And I'm sure it's really more like 99.5%.

And other people complain that the normalized power algorithm (used in the calculation of IF) overweights intensity, thus reminding me of the saying:

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time."

How do you know the difference between 99.5 and 100%? What is 100%?

And other people complain that the normalized power algorithm (used in the calculation of IF) overweights intensity

It can go both ways. Say you are on a long ride easy ride. Brief trips into VO2 or greater intensity can have a significant effect on NP, but not be very taxing so long as they are well short of your max duration. For instance say you can do 400W for 5 minutes, fully rested and primed for the effort. 100% effort. You can spend your day doing many 400W 1 minute efforts and not feel that taxed. However, if you do just one 5 minute effort at the absolute max you can, this will not be the case.

Or it could be as simple as what is causing the "limit". What I'm calling 100% might be territory that they never enter because they limit their performance with other things like how they feel. Pain thresholds. The mind starts telling stories and making them slow down. And I'm sure there are some that go beyond any place I've been. On this board I'm certain there are a lot of people who don't know what their physical 100% feels like. It can take a long time and lots of practice to find it.

I agree that while a hour max effort is very difficult physically and mentally...it shouldn't shell you for the next day or so. Maybe you might want to choose to take an easy day the next day to set up for other hard workouts to come...but it shouldn't flat out prevent you from doing anything above a recovery effort the next day.

A couple years ago I did back to back 40k TTs. Not on back to back days...I mean about 14 minutes apart. Granted the second effort was nowhere near 100%, but 75% didn't feel that hard. Maybe it felt like what 82-85% would normally feel like had I not gone 100% the first hour. There was pain and suffering on the first run...but the second just felt like a tempo ride.

Also, as far as 120% for 10 minutes, I have a very steep power curve and have done it last year. 368 for 5 minutes (137%), 323 for 10 minutes (120%), and 268 for an hour. My HIM power is usually around 200...so around 75%. Not your typical triathlete power curve...but luckily for me I have moved on to road racing focus.

Isnt FTP supposed to be the maximum power that one can sustain for 50- 90 minutes?

How many times can you PR in a week?

Really interesting thread going on here. Lots of back and forth about FTP. However I didn't see anything questioning the first sentence in this topic... I would venture to say that going to FTP is perhaps not the best way to maximize aerobic development...

Thoughts?

It seems like "hard tempo" effort and FTP are being confused here.

I have a question about the "too hard tempo" workouts.
(This is what would happen if ones stays too long at our above FTP)

What are the positives vs. negatives of exceeding FTP for an excess period, and crashing?
What should be the roles of training to the point of failure?

It seems that a workout that goes: 105% of FTP, 99% of FTP, 85% of FTP- is much harder AND slower than a workout that is a constant 97% of FTP.

But you can't always get it right?

How do you know the difference between 99.5 and 100%? What is 100%?

100% is the absolute max. 99.5% is 0.5% less than that.

How do I know the difference? I don't. I was saying that what I've been calling 100% probably isn't. It may not be possible for anyone except in the rarest and most extreme circumstances.

I know from talking to and observing other people that most don't push the limit as far as I do. If you can't turn the bulk of your thoughts off, I think it would be very hard to get close to it. And if you do have that part down, then what are the physical sensations that signal that you are pacing a max effort? For me, the first half of a 40k is almost easy. I think it's because I've gotten good at ignoring pain up to a certain level, so it doesn't even enter my awareness. It's very hard to go slow enough. Pacing signals are subtle at this point. I don't know how I'd describe it, but with practice I usually know where it is. I start noticing real discomfort around half way and this slowly builds. By the 3/4 point everything is complaining really loudly. I don't pay attention to the pain because it isn't reliable. Oxygen debt (sort of a tingling, tunnel vision, and beginning of a loss of consciousness) is a better indicator of the limit at this point. All the body parts are screaming in agony, and I ignore that and push harder and then harder. Then the legs are having great difficulty going around so I increase the gear and push harder yet. When the finish approaches I let it all hang out and "sprint". When I cross the line the agony is almost unbearable as I struggle to breathe, can't see straight, and all the pain I've been ignoring rushes back into awareness. After 10 minutes or so the endorphins kick in and I enter this blissed out and thoroughly thrashed state. Then I find out I just squeaked by another guy to get 12th place and it was all worth it. ;) When I get home and look at the power file I see that every quadrant of the ride had the same AP +- 2W. My legs and ass muscles ache for days afterwards.