Brent, I have no problem with you telling me that my obsession with numbers goes to far if you actually knew me. However, you don't really know me. How do you know I don't use other tools? Do you have some secret insight into my life? You draw this conclusion from threads on a forum?? Hmmmm... Didn't it cross your mind that maybe I only share what I know about a PM on a forum because I see a lack of knowledge in this area specific to triathlon? Yet I don't see a lack of knowledge to the same degree elsewhere with other tools? Cycling, in general, has been covered extremely well from guys like AC but but I'm talking strictly about triathlon which is a completely different sport than cycling.

Have you not been reading my posts or am I just that bad at communicating the message? I've already stated that I believe IMH is a completely different dynamic. And who said I was comparing Jordan's file at IMC to an IMH scenario?? Where are you getting this stuff??? It's like you're cross-posting or something or you haven't read the entire thread.

Btw, speaking of IMH, does it not hurt to see whether the numbers jive with this supposed reality? You clearly didn't understand why I used Hauth as an example. I said it depends on the individual which means we could be talking about an AGer or we could be talking about a Pro. I'm not focusing only on Pros -- I'm focusing on all types of individuals. Note: The only thing I will say about IMH is what I already said:

"So, dynamic race tactics at IMH might not play as much of a factor in your variability as it would be in your overall profile." (allow me to emphasis might) Meaning, you may very well still see low VIs but declining profiles will prevail. Again, it's not blanket statement. It's just a suspicion I have. Even if I'm wrong it's hardly a big deal. The focus isn't on how to produce the best results at IMH. It's how to produce the best results at IM, in general.

Hey, so here's the challenge... All you have to do is throw me 3 or 4 Pro power files from IMH. That should be easy, right? I'm even giving you all the opportunity to look at the file before you send it me. I'm just interested in seeing the variability, that's all. We all know what the power curves look like...

Ok. This is going to sound totally arrogant but I think it's important in creating or establishing credibility. I've qualified for Kona 3 years in a row and I've been doing IM for 4 years. Not bad for a guy who's supposedly overly obsessed and blinded by numbers. Now you can believe that I'm genetically gifted and successfull in spite of my preparation and execution but then I'd suggest you take a good hard look at my background first and talk to the guys and gals out there who really know me before you draw any conclusions. They all pretty much live in a little tri mecca called Sammamish, WA. This little town has been quite notorius for producing a number of Kona qualifiers.

Thanks, Chris

Want to know what's funny? If I had to describe my training, that's how I do all or most of my race-specific training too... I only do structured short intervals (eg 2 x 20s) during my early phase of training (general prep) which means almost all of my race-specific training is done using a PM simply as a "flight data recorder." I ride completely by RPE and don't even wear an HRM more than 50% of the time. That's how obsessed I am with numbers... ;-)

Thanks, Chris

Chris,
Good on you for trying to fight the good fight on ST...I gave up a long time ago.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

The King of Sammamish... priceless.

Lakerfan, count me in as a slowtwitcher who appreciates your input and comments on the use of powermeters in racing and training. Thank you.

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Grant

Hey Paulo, I would have sent this to you in PM, but you have that feature turned off.

You are in the business of triathlon. You are a coaching professional. This forum is all about "your industry". It is an opportunity to present your company in a professional manner. I realize that the engineer in all of us can get in the way of the businessmen in all of us, however, you can leverage this forum for a lot more goodwill by treating others with respect and thereby associate your business and yourself with positive interactions.

While you may be "full" and can take no more clients at the present time, it costs nothing to invest in goodwill for you brand. Beating up on someone who might be a customer or might refer people to your services is just cutting off a potential channel of marketing and potentially future revenue.

All the best man.

Dev

Me too, and I don't even own a powermeter. I wouldn't have thought that collecting data points would be such a controversy. There's a lot of belief-based (per Phil Skiba's blog) people here.

it is easy to conclude that by training and racing with a powermeter you become a slave to the numbers. To some people that takes the enjoyment of riding and racing.

- We don't 'ride', we 'train.'

- Getting numbers out of a training session - whether pacing or power - and the comparing the improvements to previous workouts is a huge psychological payoff. It is the same way that video games are designed - to encourage you to play in pursuit of a higher and higher score. It is what keeps you coming back. Same thing with golf scores. Some of us don't do IM for a living and this provides a carrot to keep us to continue to train. It's quiet awesome to look at where you were and where you are now - and where you can go. You can't do that without numbers. Philbert - who IS a coach and a damn good and helpfu lone - made his point about this earlier.

- And isn't 'racing' all about the numbers? Splits, power, ranking?

Nope. That would be Paul Meade or Steve Bailey or Cynthia Krass, imho. I'd throw in Tom Price too but he doesn't live in Sammamish anymore...

Btw Paulo, do I take personal shots at you? Yes I do. However, it's the only way I can ever communicate with you. The difference between you and I is that you do nothing but take personal shots at people. Your passion for getting pleasure out of making fun of others is 2nd to none. On the rare occasion when I make that mistake, I deeply deeply regret it.

You're probably one the the smartest dudes out there. You're knowledge of the sport is incredible and I'm quite certain you're an excellent coach. However, none of those things justifies the way you treat others on ST. I know, it's all a big joke to you and we all just take you too seriously. Just imagine how much you could contribute to this forum if you changed your attitude just a little bit. Why don't you try it for a week and see if the personal pleasure you get from helping others far exceeds the personal pleasure you get from making fun of others. That would be very cool if you were willing to give it a shot.

I believe in you...

Thanks, Chris

"You are in the business of triathlon."
Yes
"You are a coaching professional"
No I am not. Also the reasons I post here are not because of business. I coach here because it entertains me. If you ask any of my athletes why they hired me, they will tell you that it's not because of my posting, it's because I am a good coach. I am pretty, pretty sure that my posting hurts my business, and you know what.... I don't give a damn!

Anyway, like I said, go back and read this thread or any other thread. Mr. lakerfan has a tendency to get his panties in a knot everytime anyone contradicts something he says. He's also the first to start with the personal attacks and, because this place is a source of entertainment to me, I have no problem whatsoever in replying to him in the same coin. He amuses me and entertains me with his narrow vision of reality and his unability to take criticism. Also the arrogance he displays in his posts (the credibility of a 3-time Kona qualifier...cripes) makes me look like a choir boy in that department, and I know I have some faults there.

So again, Dev, go back, read his attacks to me, to sinchronicity or to those that contradict him, and send him a similar note than the one you sent me. I know how you like to be a fair person.

Maybe during that week where I play nice here, I'll go post sarcasm over at Endurance Nation. Now THAT would be some serious FUN!

CPC for life brother. Some get what we do, some don't.

You assume your registration in the forum would be approved...

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

Thanks for the original post. IT was intersting.

And I also love these PS Triathlon marketing strategy threads.

Just thought I would let you know that um... you're wrong. And sorry, you can't burst my Jonnyo love bubble.

;-)

Jodi

Thanks for playing!

that is where i'm "getting this stuff." i didnt sort through the rest of your posts.

chris, i think you're overreacting. i started by merely pointing out that, in my mind, things like powermeters, lactate analyzers, don't take the place of a smart coach or athlete using their head. I think that an athlete will be far better prepared to react to the inevitable unexpected during ironman if they have established a good feel for their capabilities. i think that your numbers approach possibly places unnecessary limits on performance. there are so many factors that affect your calculations, that your attempts to define thing down to the watt seem misguided. for example, how do you really know what an athlete's FTP is on race day? what gains have they made with tapering? how does it change based on the conditions?

i don't have access to any pro power files from hawaii that you wouldn't. i think there are some available though, so we can both do a search and see what's out there.

i'm sure you do a lot of things well. we have essentially agreed on a solid approach to running. i'm just pointing out a few caveats here and for whatever reason it seems to have gotten you all riled up.

You assume your registration in the forum would be approved...[/reply] Priceless!!!!

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

No dude, thank YOU! Your complete lack of professionalism and complete jackassery has been great for my business. You've single-handedly lowered the collective expectations of the tri-world to such a level that I and many, many others just need to show up. Don't listen to Dev, you're doing great! Thumbs up!

I should probably put you on the payroll or at least offer you an assistant coaching gig. In fact, when you want to grow your business beyond giving yourself a reach around, as you screw yourself, look me up. Happy to help.

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Dick Strauss

ok...you are right... i used srm and hr for years... have good understanding of them... now i have burn out and change attitude since with paulo...

when paulo give me a run with 6X4minutes z3 build ot z4 running.... and i head out the door without a watch or anything else but my running shoes... paulo know it s just me going for my normal workouts... 4 minutes is like...well if i have my ipod... it s 1 song! so if i have a 50 minutes tempo run, i know 10 song will do the trick... if no ipod, i just run until the sun as move a few degress coresponding to 50 minutes... not always super accurate.

i dont have a watch or computer or powermeter on the bike for over a year..... all intervals are by feel and for duration... i use to clock at home when i leave and look at it when i come back... and make the math to figure out how long i rode....

i do not avocate this way of training for anyone... but i came up to a new level of performance and training this year from reconising the importance of been consistant, and challenging myself when on the road and connecting to another level with my body....getting to know me better, i m happier than ever and it shows in my attitude and races. no technology for me.....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Jonathan-

Clearly your performance has taken a hit from all this "feel" stuff. I think you should dump this asshole coach of yours, find someone who demands use of gadgets, and get back on track with your racing.

Just a thought...

Jodi

Dear Dick,

Hopefully lakerfan will come back, and in the name of coherence, will call you out for the truly classless individual you appear to be.

Kind regards,

jonnyo,

without having spent a decent amount of time training with a pm, hr monitor or other toys, do you think you'd still have the same level of awareness about your body and rpe? i think pros are in a totally different league becasue of the amount of volumne you do for years on end, and you've developed a feel that few of us agers can match.

Let me see if I can get hold of where we are on this debate...

1. Clearly, there is only one "right" way to train.

2. Some say your training MUST by feel. Anything else, and you're just a slave to the numbers and not realizing your true potential. Others say you have to plug in the numbers and stick to 'em, no matter what. All we're really arguing about here now is which side is right.

3. Paulo is an asshole.

Does that sum things up?

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Steve Perkins

Brent, I promise, I'm not riled up. That's an unfortunate yet common perception based on how I write. However, I'm working on improving my communication skills so people like you don't walk away with that impression again. I just ask for your patience.

Here's the problem... I have an answer to all of those questions but it they're part of an 8+page document I'm working on currently entitled "IM Bike Execution: Using RPE, Power and HR." These factors are discussed in much more gruesome detail. This is a forum and it's too difficult to cover every detail/factor. As you see, I have listed ranges in all of my posts. I don't list specific numbers and have never defined things down to a watt. In the document I help others target more specific numbers within a range but it will always be a range based on many factors as you've suggested. This is just a guidance -- it's not the Bible. As you're well aware, the number of people blowing up in an IM is much greater than the number of people restricted or limited in their performance by placing emphasis on numbers. It's no mystery that poor bike pacing is a very common characteristic in IM.

Brent, every approach has its limitations. This approach is not intended to be perfect. It's for those who are seeking an alternate approach in their execution or have a passion for learning how to use a PM in IM. I'm sorry if I left the wrong impression with people as it's not my intention.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts,

Chris