That's a nice ride. And ~375W FT! Major respect!!

The low VI is really interesting, given what I have heard about the course.

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

VERY educational.

Thank you for taking the time to put all of that together and then posting.


.

Interestingly, the race plan that Jordan put together and executed on race day was composed of subjective terminology. And having the right race plan and execution is more important than this kind of after-analysis.

Slight correction... Jordan's FTP is actually 385w.

Thanks, Chris

How unfortunate... The only input you can offer is something negative.

How do you know it's the right race plan? Also, how do you know he even executed his race plan? Lastly, how do you suppose you can prove it to me (or anyone for that matter)?

Chris

1) Jordan had a successful race, therefore he had the right plan.
2) I talked to him. Between looking at a power file or actually talking to athletes, I prefer the latter.
3) I have no desire to prove anything to you or anyone else.

In a Quality Control type of analysis, you MUST be able to make measurements. Quality Control programs don't assure the best results, but, QC programs allow one to test, measure, analyze, attempt to control the inputs, retest, measure, analyze. So, you are on the way to a QC program, with the resultant potential of better results...don't let nay-sayers sway you away from your efforts.

Reminds me of what I heard a crusty older surgeon say, when a patient was bleeding and we were trying to determine why...he wanted to just "give more protamine". And he said, "My experience is better than your science." He was wrong, it was platelet dysfunction, not "heparin rebound", and the patient would have suffered had we not taken the "New Science" approach, based on learning more about the nuts and bolts of clotting systems, based on QC analysis, instead of taking the know-it-all's "experience is all that matters" approach.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Don't sell yourself short. You just proved you are a real ........ (I will leave this up to the reader) ;)

BTW. Really enjoyed the original post. I guess the take away for us with less gadgets (e.g. power meters), is that even bike pacing is the key to a successful IM races in most cases. That was also my experience in one foray into the IM arena.

Clearly, you missed my point but I'm not interested in having a debate with you. Please just show the slightest bit of class and either contribute your criticism in a positive manner or just move on.

Thanks, Chris

Well, it was interesting. Probably would be more so if I knew what AP, NP, VI, IF, TSS, and FTP stood for.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Looks like your health has improved sufficiently to the point that you're back at being a dick again. That makes me happy.

My sincere apologies... I made some poor assumptions. Here you go:

AP = average power
NP = Normalized power -- please see: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/defined.asp
VI = Variability Index (NP/AP)
IF = Intensity Factor -- again, please see: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/defined.asp
TSS = Training Stress Score -- see above link
FTP = Functional Threshold Power -- see above link

These are components of Dr. Coggan's NP Construct/Concept/Paradigm.

Thanks, Chris

thanks for sharing, interesting to read the numbers. Been chased by jordan all day, i could have guesstimate test numbers from the pacing we both did.

for those that dont understand these concepts.... i would resume the analyse to this: easy on the climb, stong on the flat

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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"for those that dont understand these concepts.... i would resume the analyse to this: easy on the climb, stong on the flat"

Jonny, whoever told you that is wrong!!!

T

Seriously Jonny, you need to stop listening to any idiot that comes up to you with tips!

Your simplification is pretty spot on, at least in terms of "relatively." I wasn't actually easy on the climbs or stronger on the flats, just even, which is, I guess, abnormal. I think you did a good job of pacing too. Probably you came to a similar approach through good coaching and also knowing the course from having lots of experience riding it. I didn't have that luxury (course knowledge), so fortunately I had a powermeter and good coaching!

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

LLLLLLLLLLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL but but but, the guy was a doctor!!!!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

He's not a real doctor, he doesn't have a PhD!

Is a dentist a real doctor? ;)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

true..... a dentist isnt really a real doctor...more like a part time doctor. And he dosnt ride with a powermeter so it s not like he is scientific or have a science mind.... yeah, i should not have listen to him..... GO HARD OR GO HOME>>

BOULDER IS FREAKING AWSOME....SO MANY COOL HOT GIRLS AND I HAVE A CELEBRITIE MAP AND I HAVE SEEN THE HOUSE OF ALL THE BIG SHOT OF TRIATHLON. IT S PRETTY AWSOME TO THINK THEY LIVE IN HOUSE LIKE US!!!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Did you go to the Reservoir yet? Did you see... "The Tire"???

Which is why I don't like subjective terminology to describe a ride (unless I'm talking to myself). 'Easy" to me would mean around 65 - 70% of FTP and 'strong' would mean something closer to 80+% of FTP. Easy and strong might mean something else to another athlete. Of course, that's not how you rode. You did a fair amount of climbing around 85% of FTP at times...

This is what I mean when I say things get lost when we use subjective terminology.

Thanks, Chris

But you and I don't live in a house!

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

What I want to know is if Kieren Doe lives in a house.

 
Is a dentist a real doctor? ;)

Oh boy...your gonna start another war like on Herberts thread.

As for where Jonny gets most of his advice, I think it's the ice cream lady at Tickleberry's.

T

Are you saying Jonnyo and I need to live in a house in order to win an Ironman? So, really, pacing has nothing to do with it. It is just about whether or not you live in a house? Wow. So really, you don't train to win races, you just train so you can buy a house, and then once you have a house, you win races!

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Only if you buy a house with your triathlon money. It's a catch 22 kind of thing.

If you were a real doctor, you'd know it's "you're gonna start another war..."

Jonnyo would definitely get his advice from a place called Tickleberry's -- "Hexcuse me womans, do you 'ave hany tickleberreez? Can you show me what eez zis ticklebereez?"

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

i can neither confirm nor deny that he lives in a house, but he does shop at my supermarket.

in hindsight, i regret not taking a peek in his trolley...dammit

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

Jordan, i cant reply anymore, i have to go to bed because tomorow, i m swimming at the RESERVOIR in the city of BOULDER and need to be in my best shape as i will meet a lot of HOT SHOT of triathlon and probably also many HOT WOMENS.

i will also go for coffee with MarkV, people told me he like to listen and a bit shy when comes time to talk about himself???!!!!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Do you have somewhere to stay? I have relatives in Boulder. You can pretend you are related to them if you want. Maybe that will help with the womens. He's a doctor! I bet that will help.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

i m staying with WILL and MUFFINTOP and it s a lot of fun...... i have my own air matress and a full room to myself, we could say that i live in a house.... and only a few houses from Graham fraser and gordo and a few others.... i m definitly someone right now!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Mark is a little shy and won't say much when you first meet him, but he's a good guy. Also when he talks, he talks really low, so you really need to pay attention.

What do you mean you are in Boulder?I thought you were a Penticton local.At least that is what the newspapers papers said last week. ;)

of course i m a local. i m just in training camp before ironman hawaii, i m actually on my way to Las Cruces where i will train in a very quiet and lonely environement. I left penticton saturday night and drove here.

but you will see me back in penticton soon.... it s been the place in canada i have pass the most time in the last 2.5 years... so i consider it home now! But as always, i dont sit still for very long.... alaways on the go....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

You are a local of Paseo, Toyota!

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

             Good to hear that you haven't deserted us now that you are a famous athelete/chick magnet.

BORN AND RAISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

You guys know that lakertensefan is going to blame me for this highjack, don't you?!

You can't start a serious thread after 5pm EST. It just doesn't work...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

No worries at all... I find it quite comical to watch your insecurities play out on a forum.

Chris

Hey Paulo, I bet you'd get a lot less criticism around here if you went back to your old screen name!

Now what fun would that be? :-D

Make sure you say HELLO to the dogs that live by the reservoir!!! :D

Hey Paulo, why take personal shots at Triyoda. He just asked you to make a positive contribution.

As for post race analysis or not, obviously we all agree that everyone should have a game plan. The post race data is nice evidence to see how well it was followed, and as you know in cases where things go south, the data usually tell the tale of why. I know that I am not an athlete who wants data all the time and would prefer to go by feel, however, I do log every workout that I have done in the past 10 years, and I can go back to my logs to determine trends between what type and volume of training I was doing, the accompanying stresses in my life and how racing was going. I see value in that after analysis.

Jordan's power file clearly offers some interesting data useful to all of us wanting to learn about how to get better. We are all glad that he had a solid plan and executed to perfection!

this thread (the first part anyway) reminds me of a good story i heard. doc counsilman (he was a swim coach some of you might have heard of) was at a conference in the early to mid 80s where jonty skinner was giving a talk on lactate testing and drowning the audience in a sea of numbers. doc got up and said something to the effect of, if you need a lactate machine to tell you when your athletes are tired, then you're not coaching.

the point is that the toys and numbers can be interesting, but they are unnecessary, don't tell the whole story, and make it easy to get sidetracked or never develop the ability to adapt to changing conditions.

Amen! And to some of us, they suck the fun out of training. It's much more fun to test your limits and learn to read your body. The Jonnyo method of racing and training.

:-)

Jodi

Exactly. My athletes have reaped the benefits of this approach for many years.

Interestingly, the first coach I ever saw who approached training in a really QC / 6-Sigma way was my wife. She coached a basketball team in Chicago for a few years after we first met. I watched her turn bench-warmers into really valuable players with some regularity. It was impressive to see someone with no scientific training at all (she is a graphic artist) apply evidence-based methods to athlete training.

I recently wrote an article on evidence-based coaching for my blog, check it out here. It was pretty popular with the Wattage list crowd.

Also, there is an excellent article on evidence based coaching here, which Andy Coggan turned up some years ago. It is worth reading.

FWIW,

Philbert

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Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

<< The Jonnyo method of racing and training >>

Hate to burst yer Jonnyo love bubble, but, he owns and uses a SRM & a HRM in training.
You can bet yer ass Paulo doesn't just send him out and say "ride 4 hrs at z2 w/ 3x20 z4 on 5' RI" and then hope for the best that Jonnyo does this by feel.

He may choose to race w/o them, but he's also been doing this for well over 10 years now.
(Gordo went w/o any gadgets after using 'em in training, and look how well that worked out for him.)


As I've posted before, for all those who don't like or want to use gadgets - don't.
But - WHY do you insist on posting on a thread for those who do use them?


Prior to the hijacking (which I rather enjoyed, I hate to say it), this was a very informative thread about how to properly pace and race an IM bike AND by doing so set up a good run.

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float , hammer , and jog

It really depends on how you use the tools. I would not call a power meter a toy, if it is used properly it is far from a toy.

If a coach can only see athletes in terms of their data, sure there are not doing a good job of coaching. But likewise, to use the other extreme, a coach who watches an athlete run and says they look "good" is also not doing a sound job of coaching. Coaches need information, and the more of it they gather and know how to use properly, the better off the athlete is. I don't know why we have to keep up the either/or discussion of using training tools. In my book, a good coach knows his/her athletes, and uses all the tools available to help them get faster.

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Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
http://www.digittri.com

I believe he set himself up perfectly for the run.

I am not much of a numbers man, but this is the key phrase in the whole post.

Despite his in-experience at this distance Jordan knew that to do well in an IM you need to run well and to run well the bike really needs to be no harder than a moderatly hard training ride.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

MUFFIN!! I'm graduating in December!!!!!!!!!!! Now this is a highjack! :-)

congratulations, i have to wait until may. do you know what you want to do?

While I might be perceived as the "anti numbers guy", I agree with ML. There is a place for everything.

While I don't take power to the road, I have a reasonable feel for what my road performance equates to as I go by power indoors. Jodi, I do agree that seeing numbers all the time can suck the fun out of training and frankly like you, I do it 90% for fun...but I also like to extract some semblance of performance out of my body, so I would say 10% of the time in training, I use numbers...I go to the track, or I do a fixed TT course, or I run on the treadmill, swim in the pool on timed intervals or ride the TACX trainer with power output.

Tracking numbers in every workout can become somewhat frustrating for many of us, however, they have a place if you are interested in maximizing performance for the available fitness that you have.

ML and Jonnyo are examples of guys who train with power and are in synch with their bodies to the point that on race day, even without a powermeter (ex ML IMLP 2006), they can still pace things out at the appropriate % of FT as if they have the meter staring them in the face. I guess that is why I go to the track and get on the trainer from time to time...it allows me to remove variables that affect pace and let's me guage the pace/intensity/effort that I might expect to execute at over a variety of race distances...more importantly, it tells me what I cannot go over too many times.

--------------------------------------------------------

OK, on another note, in an offline discussion that Lakerfan, Rappstar and I had, we were trying to determine what % of 10K run race pace one could expect to sustain for an Ironman, assuming the bike and run prep were in place. The summary/consensus/conclusion was that OK = (10K pace/0.7), Good = (10K pace/0.75), Outstanding Execution = (10K pace/0.8).

In my example, where I am in 37 min 10K shape, with a 70% effort of the 10K pace I ended up with a 3:42 run...not great, but OK :-). At 75% of the 10K intensity I would have ended up in the Murphy's Law approved 3:28 run splilt. I believe Jordan ended up at 75-75% of his 10K pace when we did our analysis.

Fleck, when you were running your best at Ironman, what were your Ironman and 10K times.



Dev

dev, i dont train with power anymore..... i havent been since soma half ironman and all my breaktorught and great race have been done on feel for training and racing....

numbers are there to entertain people. The are not necessary but arent negative either. Yes, powermeter is a toy....A TOY. whatever use you make of it, it s a toy and i prefer to get to know my body so well that it will pay off in racing. Powermeter can always let you down or be miscalibrated....

but they are a fun toy for some and can teach you valuable lessons. but they dont teach you anything different that a good coach could using words with subjectivity.

to each our own approche and hope everyone as a blast on the road.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Fleck, when you were running your best at Ironman, what were your Ironman and 10K times.

Not sure how this applies but life-time best 10K was 31:XX on the road. However, I was never in that sort of shape when I was running my best Ironman marathons.

More to the gist of the thread, a favourite workout of mine that I would do in the final 6 weeks of specific IM prep was to go for a hard 4 hour bike ride and then go directly to the track and run exactly 7:00min/miles for a number of miles. I would try and do this as blind as I could i.e. just check the split at each mile mark and not every lap. The clock does not lie, so you would know EXACTLY what that specific pace felt like. The fatigue in the legs at T2 and all the hype and the fans cheering had a tendancy to throw the PE and sense of pace way off, so it was good to know exactly how that pace felt, then on race day you could hit it without any problems even if the mile markers were off or the watch was not working. I could tell that I had a good run going, when it felt like I had the brakes on for the first 5 - 6 miles but was still running 7:00 min/mile dead-on.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It seems that pacing for the run and pacing for the bike are pretty close, at least if you look at them as a function of "threshold power" (which would be threshold or ~10k pace for the run). I.e., the percentage of power you ride at and have a successful race is pretty close to the pace you can run at successfully. What this really says is that you need to train the top end. Doing "base" miles will only get your so far, even in Ironman. Of course athletes do exceed those numbers in the last 10k or so of the run all the time, but those are the people that have trained right, and they are usually the ones winning the race.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think that if you bike over 20 hours a week, week after week, you probably get to a point where you know your power by feel. I'm lucky if I get 2 rides a week in totaling 6 hrs.

Once I started using a PM I started getting off the bike at Ironman feeling great. If someone were planning to only do one Ironman I would recommend to them that they get a power meter and learn how to use it.

For example, my wife rides once a week for 3 hours. I took her threshold, set power goals for her early, on flats and on climbs. She rode 105 miles of the IMC course last week in just over 6 hours, and got off and ran 4 miles.

She has never ridden over 60 miles in her life, but with the PM she was able to pace the longer distance correctly and enjoyed the experience enough that she's signed up for IMC next year.

The only down side is now we need a second PM.

Jesus jonnyo, resize that picture.


Doing "base" miles will only get your so far, even in Ironman.


Raise the left, fill the right. Interesting that so many people are anti-powermeter. I'll bet they still log their miles though, a much cruder form of measurement lacking any notion of intensity.

Fleck, let me ask it more simply. When you were running close to 3 hours flat at IMC, how fast were you running 10Ks (or what is your estimate of what the 10K would have been).

Jonnyo, thanks for the update. I did not know that you had completely ditched training by power on the bike, however, I suspect that based on the time you spent training with power, you had a good feel for what you were doing out there on the course. I think you even said that you got things up over 80% of FTP on Richter, which would imply an estimate of how hard you were going and what your FTP is, all based on perceived exertion (which is how I generally train and race)?

Dev

i do have a good idea of what i m riding for watts and all. but it s purely a enjoyement thing.... so many other fast rider dont use powermeter, they prefer to ride and get to know themself ..... i was aware of what i could back off and run from the training i have done, i have a mental meter that mesure all this in races.... it s just a different way to race.

the fun thing this year is that i havent done any intervals ...paulo dont give me stuff like 2X 1h or 3X30z3 or anything like this, he knows i just ride the terrain so he will say....get 90 minutes of z3 work and i will find some hills and ride them at feel for about 90 minutes and learn how much my body can do and what to avoid and not do.

I guess all these valuable info wont be usefull in hawaii, i heard it s a very ''fartleck like ride'' and you play follow the leader if you have the legs.... i m sure having a powermeter would scare the shit out of me as last year, the first 20 minutes had a lot of 300-500 watts reading on the srm....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Jonnyo, the gist of your quote at Kona last year on Saturday nite after the race was, "Norman caught me at Palani....I did 600W for a few seconds and went back to doing my own race...."

I'm planning for med surg the first year, just to gain some experience and then I want to move to ICU. I'm talking to Scripps La Jolla, so hopefully that's where I'll end up!

Ok, back to your power gadgets and stuff.

When you were running close to 3 hours flat at IMC, how fast were you running 10Ks (or what is your estimate of what the 10K would have been).

Around 33:00, I am guessing. Which I think is pretty close - that's about 5:20 pace which when you are doing specific IM prep is nearly all out!! I recall being able to do mile repeat workouts( 5 or 6 X 1 mile) at the time in 5:10 - 5:20. The more important runs were the long runs where I would start out at 7:00 min mile and then bring it home for the back half at close to 6:00 min/mile.

7:00 min/mile needed to be the all-day default pace. The pace that you could run at forever, and even when trashed still keep turning it over at that pace.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Brent, I'm not trying to "tell the whole story." I'm just trying to tell part of the story from a numbers-analysis perspective. I'm not trying to coach anyone here but trying to get people to see what are common characteristics of successful IM bike performances. The two IM bike performances I analyzed in this thread came from two podium finishers. They are an exact reflection of the many other successful IM bike performances I have sitting in a folder on my laptop.

What I find most unfortunate is that some people feel a need to contribute negatively to a thread they clearly have no interest in. What does that say about the individual? I can only speak for myself but I've had incredible success training and racing with a PM. I thoroughly enjoy using one and thoroughly enjoy helping others get the most out of one. That is my passion in life.

I'm directly the question to you only to address the negative comments about PMs so far... What if I was to say, "What a complete waste of time to go to med school when everything we need to heal ourselves is within our own minds." Why would anyone ever feel like they should destroy someone else's passion when we know that it's making a positive difference in their life or performance??? I have a really hard time with that one...

I should point out that I could take the PM off my bike today and it wouldn't change a thing in how I ride. My brain has been (re)calibrated due to the PM. The reason why I continue to ride with a PM is because I'm pursuing one of my passions in life and that is helping others achieve their goals in the sport of IM.

Thanks, Chris

FLOATING TURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





TURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

I think you're being a little harsh on Dev here...

I think that a picture of a floating snickers bar, that looks like a turd, is a positive contribution

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

You're obviously just a classless individual.

Loosen up a little pauly. You ever seen the movie? People in America think this was a "funny" scene.

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

Read "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales. Just because we we're succesfull , doesn't necessarily mean the plan was the right one.

He says something to the effect of, "Often we succeed in spite of our actions (Plan), rather than because of them"

Dude, your such a jackass, its clearly a brown trout.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

It's a fun city around Pearl Street. Lots of good restaurants down there. Too many pothead hippies but smoking of any kind is outlawed in all the establishments. Check Illegal Pete's for the best and cheapest burritos!

How can you test your limits when you don't have a number to represent those limits that are being tested?

Yes, it was intended to be a key phrase (specific to how he used a PM at IMC). And yes, having spent some time exchanging e-mail with Jordan, he clearly knows the importance of executing ALL components (eg hydration/nutrition) on the IM bike but this post by him clearly emphasizes the importance of using a PM when racing:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1459399#1459399

Thanks for reading the post.

Chris

non sequitur

I think that completely depends on the individual. Look at Hauth's ride at IMH:

http://www.performancelabshc.com/pages.php?id=129

That's about as steady as it gets throughout the entire ride.

I should also point out that the last 4 Pro's IM power data I've looked at is all reflective of relatively low variability. So, dynamic race tactics at IMH might not play as much of a factor in your variability as it would be in your overall profile. IOW, your VI could likely still be quite low (and possibly should be quite low) but you'll yield a declining curve. You'll initially work hard (ie >80% of FTP) to make sure you're part of that "draft-legal" train but once you're on it, you'll likely sit quite steady on more comfortable watts...

Thanks, Chris

So how well did you run off the bike, since you compare yourself to Rappstar?
And I am not talking about feel, I am talking numbers!

And before you start to explain:

There are people out there who have not developed the feel for the water, the effort, the excertion of aerobic sports. Training with any kind of tool is certainly appropriate for people who have no awarness of their body and/or jump into a sport they have never participated in their lives before.

But telling others who have grown up developing a sense for their limits and capabilities in "aerobic" sports that they should now listen to numbers instead of their intuition and experience is a little over the top, don't you agree?

I am kind of shocked that you say others who don't agree on the "training by numbers" concept are "bashing" those who do.

I do however have a problem with you saying that this ought to be the only way to improve or execute well at a race.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

who is haulth?????? i dont think he was in the front pack????

i agree pretty much on everything you say, but you will see at many times very high numbers in hawaii that you would not see in another ironman(if you have a powermeter) In hawaii, it does matter if the srm read 400 watts going up a hill or 350 for the first 5 minutes of the ride.... you need to go and follow if you can so powermeter is not usefull at all, just ride with the group and hope for the best. But this race is very different from the age group race.

my file last year in hawaii was interesting in the sence that my 5 minutes in the group show me how fast the ride was at the start...and like you said, settle down a bit on the highway. but if you have a shot at finishing in the top 10.... you dont ride according to your powermeter but according to how the group rides. then, make your choice as to if you can ride alone, ahead or drop back..... but there is definitly a fartleck components to this race that you wont see in a race like canada where the highest watts reading for me would have been maybe 350 watts compare to my peak 600 in kona.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

lakerfan dosnt say it s the only way..... not from what i understand, he present a different perspective....that can be good for some...not as good for others...

of course, most elite athlete at the front of the races dont use powermeters in racing..... that speak for itself....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Wow!! You read things into my post I never imagined someone would walk away with... I'm not telling people they should now listen the numbers. Could you please point out where I said that? If any of you are successful training and racing completely "by feel" then I strongly suggest you continue to do so and, I promise, I hope you continue with incredible success. Better yet, I hope you go through the effort of sharing your success with others.

Hopefully this helps explain it a bit better but I feel like I'm probably just repeating myself...

First, if you're not interested in the numbers then why bother reading the thread? The thread is a NUMBERS analysis focused SOLELY on power on the IM bike at IMC. However, it is very reflective of many other solid IM bike performances I have seen or analyzed. As I already stated, it does not cover an analysis of RPE, HR, nutrition, hydration, etc. It covers power. If you're not interested in power numbers then why would you want to comment and say this is a waste of time?? What am I missing? I don't know... I would never go over to a thread in which I have no interest or possibly no understanding and say, "What you guys are doing is a waste of time." Sorry but that just seems like a complete lack of class to me. Maybe I'm weird but I honestly thought it was common sense.

So, I assumed this would just go without saying but if you're interested in seeing some common characteristics specific to how one would/could/should apply power during the IM bike then I hope you truly find this analysis helpful. Honestly, I've probably looked at more power files than about 99% of the people in the industry because I've shown a keen interest in doing so. I'm just trying to share what I think I've learned from the experience. Why would anyone in the world want to criticize someone so unconstructively for just trying to help others? Obviously I'm still baffled...

My run:

3:33:21 which was a PR. Quite remarkable that I PRed considering I suffered from severe stomach gas/cramping the first 14miles and I've been dealing with a dysfunctional SI joint since May. Btw, my stomach cramping/gas is related to a form of diverticulitis and a "twisty" colon or so I'm told. This is something I experience in every IM but this IM was most painful for me (up until mile 14). I've written a very detailed RR but given how well this thread has gone I've chosen not to share it on ST.

My run splits:

1st run segment: 1:46:18
2nd run segment: 1:47:03

I took at least a minute at the mile14 aid station because of an "issue." I estimate my FT pace at 6:15 - 6:20 (probably much closer to the latter given my run fitness this summer) so I ran around ~77% of FT pace. According to my data, I did my fastest running after mile 16.

Again, I hope this helps clarify my goal and my perspective.

Btw, the reason why I'm going through the effort of explaining why I'm doing this is because I assumed people understood that this was a limited analysis. I didn't cover RPE, HR, nutrition, etc because I would have to write a book in order to do so. I hope people understand that someone who finishes top 5 Pro or top 5 in a highly competitive AG understands the importance of racing by RPE, nutrition/hydration intake and possibly HR too because it's really really hard to finish at that level and screw something else up. Just because I didn't address those other components in my original post doesn't mean I don't think they're important to consider when racing.

Thanks, Chris

I think you're jumping to conclusions about lakerfan's posts. From former posts he has stated that:
- He's not a coach, nor he wants to be a coach.
- He doesn't advocate that people follow his way to see Ironman racing.
- He doesn't pretend that his way of doing things he's the right way.
- He doesn't know how to gather useful data from the significant amout of "data" he has gathered these past years.

This leaves us with the one conclusion:
- His posts are just to tell us how "successful" he is. LOOK AT ME!!!

Paulo, if you don't like what lakerfan is saying then why are you reading the post? I think it's been very informative and provides some good analysis that most agers could benefit from. Since you choose to provide very little in the way of useful information then maybe you should consider letting discussions that OTHERS find useful continue.

Because by reading his posts, it is easy to conclude that by training and racing with a powermeter you become a slave to the numbers. To some people that takes the enjoyment of riding and racing. Also you might be inclined to think that unless you have a very high-level of expertize in analyzing power data, the powermeter is not for you.

The powermeter is an excellent training tool that can be used by all to improve, without needing each and everyone of us to become a slave to the numbers or to ride and race without enjoyment.

My takeaway was a little different in that it showed how consistent pacing can yield good bike & run splits. Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but it appears that lakerfan's post-analysis numbers are more supporting that strategy as opposed to saying be a slave to the pm.

Interesting though is that jordan used a pm while jonnyo didn't, and both had excellent days.

But then 99% of the people who read this forum aren't at the front of the pack either...

Btw, one of themes I'm exploring is the belief that Pros ride and should ride with a lot more variability than you're typical AGer because of (more) dynamic race tactics. This is the primary reason why I compared Jordan's ride to mine. So, what I'm beginning to believe is that's not necessarily true. Profiles might look different depending on how the race plays out on the bike but variability is relatively low. However, it's tough to get enough Pro data to make a confident observation. I find it interesting but others may not.

Carl, don't worry about Paulo. Better yet, just ignore him. You got to admit... He's insecurity creates a fair amount of comedy and as long as he continues to post he draws attention to thread. I'm beginning to see a greater benefit to his meaningless antics. You just need to look for and find the positive in the negative... :-)

Thanks, Chris

Yes, and most of them use tubulars. And lots of them have water bottles on the frame. And several of them have very bad bike positions. And a couple don't use aero helmets.

So, does that mean you are going to do likewise? :)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You're a terrible psychologist, which makes you a bad coach... oh wait... we already knew that!

chris

the reason i chime in (i won't speak for anyone else) is because i think your obsession with numbers goes too far. i think there are other perspectives on how to maximize performance. a powermeter is potentially a useful tool, but there are many other tools i would find to be more useful. i don't doubt your interest, but if you're that passionate about it, then you shouldn't mind defending your position. i learned to not mind being questioned about my coacing philosophies because it was a chance to back it up and make sure i knew the reasons for what i was doing.

the men's pro race in hawaii is a completely different dynamic. trying to compare jordan's race in canada (or anywhere really, because he can't swim with the front pack) to that scenario is ridiculous. if you want to be competitive in hawaii you have to go hard at the beginning and make the train. the benefit is more than worth the cost. and using hauth as an example doesn't work either. he raced age group last year.

finally, no disrespect to jordan, but i would say based on his previous performances this summer he should have ridden a hell of a lot faster in canada. didn't dan say as much in his pre race prediction. so if his numbers back up your data, then i would say my hunch that your numbers put unnecessary limiters on performance is correct.

true.... you ride with a bottle on your frame and ride tubular !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....no need to reply... i know the reasons!!!

as for bad position..... well, let s not be too fast in judging.... look at the front pack in hawaii.... there is a good reason why these guys ride a bit upright.....the race dosnt finish at t2. and for aero helmet,... it s the same...some will overheat in them...some wont be bother about them.... so it s personal...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

forget miles... forget hours... track stress.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Hey Paulo, Chris is not saying "become a slave to numbers". While I don't neccessarily train like he does, and frankly based on Jonnyo's descriptions of what you make him do, what I do is very similar in both training and racing, many of us still see value in Chris' analysis.

In running, we have our splits per mile that are the equivalent (more or less) or power numbers as long as we take some level of terrain and wind into the analysis...but the variability if much less than on the bike. On the bike, the best way to know if you came to an even or negative split is to see power meter numbers.

Why not just let the discussion flow? Chris is not saying "look how great I am". He's just showing how a steady ride really sets folks up for a good Ironman performance. Rappstar got 5th pro and Chris got 5th in 40-44 attacking the ride in this manner. It is rare that we get this much insight into what lead up to successful race outcomes.

Why do you feel the need to personally attack anyone that posts what they feel is a means to success? There are different paths to success, and not each one of us ticks the same way.

Frankly, my own path to my successful races have been with zero data...just feel. At Ironman LP, I had no watch, no Powermeter, no nothing....just feel...OK, feel and cadence on the bike...but that is it. I compete in another sport (XC skiing), where you have to to go with the pack, and race by feel and by the pace dictated by others, so I likely have a better sense of what degree I can spike things up to and keep going...or make tradeoffs on when I want to burn up a finite supply of matches over a long race, but I can still learn from the tactics and analysis of others!

Dev

Ha! I heard that same quote at coffee today. Norman= watts monster.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Dev,

Go back and see who's consistently dishing out the personal attacks and come back to me. Looking forward to see you post in reply to lakerfan and asking him the same.

Funny Mark Cavendish said this about one of the stages in the tour when the hammer was put down his SRM wasn't going below 500 watts so he had to go back to the team car to get some tape to cover it up as it was doing his head in.

And you expected something else, considering it is coming from a horses Arse

I thought we had an agreement that you would email me and let me know when you were supplying comedy and completely hijacking a post? Damn you....

Brent, I have no problem with you telling me that my obsession with numbers goes to far if you actually knew me. However, you don't really know me. How do you know I don't use other tools? Do you have some secret insight into my life? You draw this conclusion from threads on a forum?? Hmmmm... Didn't it cross your mind that maybe I only share what I know about a PM on a forum because I see a lack of knowledge in this area specific to triathlon? Yet I don't see a lack of knowledge to the same degree elsewhere with other tools? Cycling, in general, has been covered extremely well from guys like AC but but I'm talking strictly about triathlon which is a completely different sport than cycling.

Have you not been reading my posts or am I just that bad at communicating the message? I've already stated that I believe IMH is a completely different dynamic. And who said I was comparing Jordan's file at IMC to an IMH scenario?? Where are you getting this stuff??? It's like you're cross-posting or something or you haven't read the entire thread.

Btw, speaking of IMH, does it not hurt to see whether the numbers jive with this supposed reality? You clearly didn't understand why I used Hauth as an example. I said it depends on the individual which means we could be talking about an AGer or we could be talking about a Pro. I'm not focusing only on Pros -- I'm focusing on all types of individuals. Note: The only thing I will say about IMH is what I already said:

"So, dynamic race tactics at IMH might not play as much of a factor in your variability as it would be in your overall profile." (allow me to emphasis might) Meaning, you may very well still see low VIs but declining profiles will prevail. Again, it's not blanket statement. It's just a suspicion I have. Even if I'm wrong it's hardly a big deal. The focus isn't on how to produce the best results at IMH. It's how to produce the best results at IM, in general.

Hey, so here's the challenge... All you have to do is throw me 3 or 4 Pro power files from IMH. That should be easy, right? I'm even giving you all the opportunity to look at the file before you send it me. I'm just interested in seeing the variability, that's all. We all know what the power curves look like...

Ok. This is going to sound totally arrogant but I think it's important in creating or establishing credibility. I've qualified for Kona 3 years in a row and I've been doing IM for 4 years. Not bad for a guy who's supposedly overly obsessed and blinded by numbers. Now you can believe that I'm genetically gifted and successfull in spite of my preparation and execution but then I'd suggest you take a good hard look at my background first and talk to the guys and gals out there who really know me before you draw any conclusions. They all pretty much live in a little tri mecca called Sammamish, WA. This little town has been quite notorius for producing a number of Kona qualifiers.

Thanks, Chris

Want to know what's funny? If I had to describe my training, that's how I do all or most of my race-specific training too... I only do structured short intervals (eg 2 x 20s) during my early phase of training (general prep) which means almost all of my race-specific training is done using a PM simply as a "flight data recorder." I ride completely by RPE and don't even wear an HRM more than 50% of the time. That's how obsessed I am with numbers... ;-)

Thanks, Chris

Chris,
Good on you for trying to fight the good fight on ST...I gave up a long time ago.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

The King of Sammamish... priceless.

Lakerfan, count me in as a slowtwitcher who appreciates your input and comments on the use of powermeters in racing and training. Thank you.

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Grant

Hey Paulo, I would have sent this to you in PM, but you have that feature turned off.

You are in the business of triathlon. You are a coaching professional. This forum is all about "your industry". It is an opportunity to present your company in a professional manner. I realize that the engineer in all of us can get in the way of the businessmen in all of us, however, you can leverage this forum for a lot more goodwill by treating others with respect and thereby associate your business and yourself with positive interactions.

While you may be "full" and can take no more clients at the present time, it costs nothing to invest in goodwill for you brand. Beating up on someone who might be a customer or might refer people to your services is just cutting off a potential channel of marketing and potentially future revenue.

All the best man.

Dev

Me too, and I don't even own a powermeter. I wouldn't have thought that collecting data points would be such a controversy. There's a lot of belief-based (per Phil Skiba's blog) people here.

it is easy to conclude that by training and racing with a powermeter you become a slave to the numbers. To some people that takes the enjoyment of riding and racing.

- We don't 'ride', we 'train.'

- Getting numbers out of a training session - whether pacing or power - and the comparing the improvements to previous workouts is a huge psychological payoff. It is the same way that video games are designed - to encourage you to play in pursuit of a higher and higher score. It is what keeps you coming back. Same thing with golf scores. Some of us don't do IM for a living and this provides a carrot to keep us to continue to train. It's quiet awesome to look at where you were and where you are now - and where you can go. You can't do that without numbers. Philbert - who IS a coach and a damn good and helpfu lone - made his point about this earlier.

- And isn't 'racing' all about the numbers? Splits, power, ranking?

Nope. That would be Paul Meade or Steve Bailey or Cynthia Krass, imho. I'd throw in Tom Price too but he doesn't live in Sammamish anymore...

Btw Paulo, do I take personal shots at you? Yes I do. However, it's the only way I can ever communicate with you. The difference between you and I is that you do nothing but take personal shots at people. Your passion for getting pleasure out of making fun of others is 2nd to none. On the rare occasion when I make that mistake, I deeply deeply regret it.

You're probably one the the smartest dudes out there. You're knowledge of the sport is incredible and I'm quite certain you're an excellent coach. However, none of those things justifies the way you treat others on ST. I know, it's all a big joke to you and we all just take you too seriously. Just imagine how much you could contribute to this forum if you changed your attitude just a little bit. Why don't you try it for a week and see if the personal pleasure you get from helping others far exceeds the personal pleasure you get from making fun of others. That would be very cool if you were willing to give it a shot.

I believe in you...

Thanks, Chris

"You are in the business of triathlon."
Yes
"You are a coaching professional"
No I am not. Also the reasons I post here are not because of business. I coach here because it entertains me. If you ask any of my athletes why they hired me, they will tell you that it's not because of my posting, it's because I am a good coach. I am pretty, pretty sure that my posting hurts my business, and you know what.... I don't give a damn!

Anyway, like I said, go back and read this thread or any other thread. Mr. lakerfan has a tendency to get his panties in a knot everytime anyone contradicts something he says. He's also the first to start with the personal attacks and, because this place is a source of entertainment to me, I have no problem whatsoever in replying to him in the same coin. He amuses me and entertains me with his narrow vision of reality and his unability to take criticism. Also the arrogance he displays in his posts (the credibility of a 3-time Kona qualifier...cripes) makes me look like a choir boy in that department, and I know I have some faults there.

So again, Dev, go back, read his attacks to me, to sinchronicity or to those that contradict him, and send him a similar note than the one you sent me. I know how you like to be a fair person.

Maybe during that week where I play nice here, I'll go post sarcasm over at Endurance Nation. Now THAT would be some serious FUN!

CPC for life brother. Some get what we do, some don't.

You assume your registration in the forum would be approved...

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

Thanks for the original post. IT was intersting.

And I also love these PS Triathlon marketing strategy threads.

Just thought I would let you know that um... you're wrong. And sorry, you can't burst my Jonnyo love bubble.

;-)

Jodi

Thanks for playing!

that is where i'm "getting this stuff." i didnt sort through the rest of your posts.

chris, i think you're overreacting. i started by merely pointing out that, in my mind, things like powermeters, lactate analyzers, don't take the place of a smart coach or athlete using their head. I think that an athlete will be far better prepared to react to the inevitable unexpected during ironman if they have established a good feel for their capabilities. i think that your numbers approach possibly places unnecessary limits on performance. there are so many factors that affect your calculations, that your attempts to define thing down to the watt seem misguided. for example, how do you really know what an athlete's FTP is on race day? what gains have they made with tapering? how does it change based on the conditions?

i don't have access to any pro power files from hawaii that you wouldn't. i think there are some available though, so we can both do a search and see what's out there.

i'm sure you do a lot of things well. we have essentially agreed on a solid approach to running. i'm just pointing out a few caveats here and for whatever reason it seems to have gotten you all riled up.

You assume your registration in the forum would be approved...[/reply] Priceless!!!!

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Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

No dude, thank YOU! Your complete lack of professionalism and complete jackassery has been great for my business. You've single-handedly lowered the collective expectations of the tri-world to such a level that I and many, many others just need to show up. Don't listen to Dev, you're doing great! Thumbs up!

I should probably put you on the payroll or at least offer you an assistant coaching gig. In fact, when you want to grow your business beyond giving yourself a reach around, as you screw yourself, look me up. Happy to help.

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Dick Strauss

ok...you are right... i used srm and hr for years... have good understanding of them... now i have burn out and change attitude since with paulo...

when paulo give me a run with 6X4minutes z3 build ot z4 running.... and i head out the door without a watch or anything else but my running shoes... paulo know it s just me going for my normal workouts... 4 minutes is like...well if i have my ipod... it s 1 song! so if i have a 50 minutes tempo run, i know 10 song will do the trick... if no ipod, i just run until the sun as move a few degress coresponding to 50 minutes... not always super accurate.

i dont have a watch or computer or powermeter on the bike for over a year..... all intervals are by feel and for duration... i use to clock at home when i leave and look at it when i come back... and make the math to figure out how long i rode....

i do not avocate this way of training for anyone... but i came up to a new level of performance and training this year from reconising the importance of been consistant, and challenging myself when on the road and connecting to another level with my body....getting to know me better, i m happier than ever and it shows in my attitude and races. no technology for me.....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Jonathan-

Clearly your performance has taken a hit from all this "feel" stuff. I think you should dump this asshole coach of yours, find someone who demands use of gadgets, and get back on track with your racing.

Just a thought...

Jodi

Dear Dick,

Hopefully lakerfan will come back, and in the name of coherence, will call you out for the truly classless individual you appear to be.

Kind regards,

jonnyo,

without having spent a decent amount of time training with a pm, hr monitor or other toys, do you think you'd still have the same level of awareness about your body and rpe? i think pros are in a totally different league becasue of the amount of volumne you do for years on end, and you've developed a feel that few of us agers can match.

Let me see if I can get hold of where we are on this debate...

1. Clearly, there is only one "right" way to train.

2. Some say your training MUST by feel. Anything else, and you're just a slave to the numbers and not realizing your true potential. Others say you have to plug in the numbers and stick to 'em, no matter what. All we're really arguing about here now is which side is right.

3. Paulo is an asshole.

Does that sum things up?

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Steve Perkins

Brent, I promise, I'm not riled up. That's an unfortunate yet common perception based on how I write. However, I'm working on improving my communication skills so people like you don't walk away with that impression again. I just ask for your patience.

Here's the problem... I have an answer to all of those questions but it they're part of an 8+page document I'm working on currently entitled "IM Bike Execution: Using RPE, Power and HR." These factors are discussed in much more gruesome detail. This is a forum and it's too difficult to cover every detail/factor. As you see, I have listed ranges in all of my posts. I don't list specific numbers and have never defined things down to a watt. In the document I help others target more specific numbers within a range but it will always be a range based on many factors as you've suggested. This is just a guidance -- it's not the Bible. As you're well aware, the number of people blowing up in an IM is much greater than the number of people restricted or limited in their performance by placing emphasis on numbers. It's no mystery that poor bike pacing is a very common characteristic in IM.

Brent, every approach has its limitations. This approach is not intended to be perfect. It's for those who are seeking an alternate approach in their execution or have a passion for learning how to use a PM in IM. I'm sorry if I left the wrong impression with people as it's not my intention.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts,

Chris

man, where were you three pages ago???

You've single-handedly lowered the collective expectations of the tri-world to such a level that I and many, many others just need to show up.

Now there's a ringing self-endorsement if I ever saw one...

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

Oh man, I really should show that post to some of your clients.
Already have a "screenshot".

You guys are pretty disgusting!

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

I'll agree, not well worded, but I think Rich was referring to customer service as a triathlon coach. Not the coaching itself.

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Steve Perkins

Your footer seems oddly appropriate here...

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

you are absolutly right.... pm teached me a lot so hr and many other tools. i will encorage everyone to use them if they can and learn... great tools. Paulo would say the same.

but i never said the word VI or TSS in my life with powermeter, i learn a lot but in a different way than someone like lakersfan did. I would never do a analyse as deep as he did as i think it s pointless FOR ME. i dont judge anyone else for what they do, but in the big pictures, for me once again, it s compleltly pointless, i do learn a lot more from conversation in subjective words with tom evans and other athlete from victoria that i have train with.

it s also a personality thing.... i would be happy to sit with anyone here and talk for ever about triathlon.... had a 2h talk with markyv today...was awsome.... but i like to talk feel, strategie, words.... not numbers... in my quest to break 9h or 8:30 one day maybe? attitude and commitement have been huge discussion topic with many athelte..... VI NP AP TSS....never.

if you think pm can help you out... go for it, lets keep the discussion going!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

i love this thread!

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

Yes. Very appropriate. I think Rich should have counted to ten before posting that. I saw it and thought "Ooooo! That's gonna leave a mark."

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Steve Perkins

Actually, I thoroughly enjoy cristicism when someone says, for example, "Chris, I think you're overly obsessed with the numbers and here's why: (followed by a very detailed and well articulated justification)." Honestly, I haven't seen that yet. It appears that Brent made an attempt but, in all due respect to him, I thought it was a somewhat weak initial attempt.

Now, if you believe I just can't take criticism, in general, then go ask Rich Strauss and Rick Ashburn or even Mitch Gold about how much I resisted some of their principles early on but their arguments were extremely well articulated. In some cases, it just took me a while to put it together and I changed.

Do you not realize the challenge I knew that would be thrown at me when I made this post on ST? I wanted to be tested. I was looking for a challenge to my analysis. If I was only looking for acceptance or a path or least resistance would I not have just posted over at www.endurancenation.us or www.counterpartcoaching.com????

So far, I've not seen a compelling argument against my approach. I'm really waiting for someone to say something where I truly have to go off and think about it for an hour or two. I want to say, "Hmmm... Now that's an excellent point. I really need some time to think about that...."

Thanks, Chris

I have no doubt that Paulo is a good coach, as measured by service and knowledge. His athletes seem to perform well and they are obviously loyal to him.

Just _every_ time I wander in here he is cutting someone down or contributing destructiveness to a post or thought vs adding something. It's like it's a game or something...which it probably is. Whatever...I just find it fascinating that a self-proclaimed professional chooses to represent himself this way. That said, my post was an attempt to have a little fun by playing the game his way with a little hyperbole. So I guess he wins again :-)

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

Ah. I see. You should have used pink font. :)

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Steve Perkins

One more thing. Let's see if we can take this in a more positive direction...

Comments like "emphasis on numbers place limitation on your performance" or "you need to establish a good feel for your capabilities" are great comments, in general, but why should I just blindly believe it without any justification whatsoever? The justification is what I'm looking for. And who's to say that someone who uses a PM doesn't have a good feel for their capabilities either? What if an athlete who uses a PM does 90+% of their race-specific training via RPE? Could that not help them establish a great feel for their capabilities? If not, then how would someone recommend you establish a good feel for your capabilities?

I wonder... Do people assume that guys who race with PMs stare at them for 112miles? You should read my IMC race report. I think it might be enlightening to people...

Thanks, Chris

"when you want to grow your business beyond giving yourself a reach around, as you screw yourself, look me up. Happy to help."

The person that wrote that is giving me lessons in professionalism. Again... priceless.

"No dude, thank YOU! Your complete lack of professionalism and complete jackassery has been great for my business. You've single-handedly lowered the collective expectations of the tri-world to such a level that I and many, many others just need to show up. Don't listen to Dev, you're doing great! Thumbs up!

I should probably put you on the payroll or at least offer you an assistant coaching gig. In fact, when you want to grow your business beyond giving yourself a reach around, as you screw yourself, look me up. Happy to help. "
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"I'll agree, not well worded, but I think Rich was referring to customer service as a triathlon coach. Not the coaching itself."


Sorry but this comment is in any case quite revealing on how triathlon coaches perceive their customers.
It isn't the first and only.

And don't get me started on a more detailed analysis of the person making that kind of statements.

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___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

One more thing. Let's see if we can take this in a more positive direction...

Positive direction? Where do you think you are? TriathlonLoveFest.com? You're not going to get a positive direction out of this forum.

---

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

"Just imagine how much you could contribute to this forum if you changed your attitude just a little bit."

That is the truly sad part about all of this.

Yep, you're right, my apologies. Shoulda counted to 10 before posting that.

------------------

---

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

I'll refrain from further putting words into Rich's mouth. He's a big boy and can speak for himself. Not an endearing post, for sure, regardless of its poster's intent.

---

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

Yes totally agree ... The guy is a "pentelho" that knows a lot about Tri, but cannot communicate well with others ...

---

Luiz Eng

D,
I think you're reading a bit much into this. A failed attempt at SmartAssCoach-esque humor and a post that shouldn't have been posted. I'd delete the post but there's your quote so here we are.

Out for a ride,

--------------------

---

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

Hey guys in fairness to Paulo, he can communicate very well and is fully capable of doing so when he chooses to. Don't for a second think he can't communicate. If you can't communicate, you can't coach, and this forum is not where he coaches...he does that offline quite successfully.

Thanks for my new sig line!

---

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

OMG. I'm sure Rich is thrilled!

Jodi

Who cares? I'm thrilled :)

---

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

Hey Dev, I only know Paulo from his posts in the forum ... so my personal opinion remains the same ... he doesn't know how to communicate ... but anyway , who cares ?? I don 't ...

---

Luiz Eng

Jonnyo, you might be surprised at how similar we train (at least on the bike w/ or without a PM)... I definitely do my strongest riding alone and it's entirely based on RPE. Yes, even my intervals are done by feel. I don't sit on a number. Period. I realize a lot of people do but I don't. I just use the PM after-the-fact to reinforce/justify how hard I'm truly riding. However, even though you don't use one today, like you, I have used a PM for years and that has a strong influence on how I ride today.

Interesting enough... I often use songs to determine the length of an effort/interval...

Thanks, Chris

Steve, I often see potential where nobody else does. I will continue to persist for better or worse... Some see it as a fault but I see it as a learning opportunity and a desire to overcome challenges.

At a minimum, we've entertained quite a few people today... ;-)

Thanks, Chris

I don't own an iPod, have never downloaded a song in my life.
I guess those folks who do, and use them in training, are slaves to the music.
Dunno how you can tune in to your body when you are tuning out to the tunes....

Me - I go by feel, the feel of my breathing, footfalls, the sound of the wind going by.

And also by my watch, HRM, PT, and now GPS. ;-)


Man - has this thread ever taken on a life of its own... I love the parts w/ Paulo playing the victim and getting offended that others are being mean to him. Priceless.

---

float , hammer , and jog

lakerfan... i would not be surprise of your training and racing... i know you dont stare at your srm.....

it s just the analyse of the files that is out of my league! but there is nothing wrong... i dont see much value in it...it dosnt mean there isnt...and i dont judge in any negative way the fact that you do.

like murphy's law said. i just found out i m addicted to music.... maybe true???? i m also slave of the WOMENS!!!!!!!!!

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Rich

Dont think for a second that Paulo or any of his "cronies' represent what anyone paying attention to this thread think or feel regarding your comments. I took them for exactly what they were...a testament on what a difference articulate, well informed information is out there through the likes of Chris, yourself and others on this or other forums. Then there's Paulo.....

Enough said...

---

Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

Yes, the thread is going in all sort of very interesting directions...

Regarding music... I don't use it on the bike except indoors. I do use it on the run but just off and on. A lot depends on my specific workout goal. I don't use music at all when I get close to my race.

I used to think the same thing as you did but I've discovered that music can strangely get you deeply in touch with your body. I can't begin to explain it on a forum. It's something you have to play with in training for a while to understand...

Thanks, Chris

"He amuses me and entertains me . . ."

Really? You say this kind of thing pretty frequently about various posters and, frankly, it defies credulity. You find lakerfan amusing and entertaining? His writing is stilted, he is a little clumsy in the way he communicates, and he comes across as somewhat arrogant and self-absorbed. And that entertains you? To each his own, I guess. I would have figured that with an intelligent guy like you that there would be something more subterranean at work in your repulsion/attraction to lakerfan and this train-wreck of a thread. I've been wrong several times before, though . . .

Belief based. HA!

Belief based would never fly in the financial industry.

Bringing accountability to triathlon. Hell yeah!

Get to know yer athlete and then lay out a program based on belief on the front end... and analyze it with stress scores on the back end. What's wrong with that.

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Rich... Chris...

PhD.... piled higher and deeper. Ignore him. :)

He does himself a disservice here with the posting manner that he does... but off line he's really cute and it's hard not to give him a hug. :) PS I had to restrain myself at 5430 from doing just that. :)

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Oh, don't restrain yourself. Paulo loves the man hug.

---

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

....and the thread goes bye-bye....

---

Kurt Luoni
US Sales Manager
Orca Wetsuits

LOL! :)

Is there anything special about giving an Iberian a hug? I mean do I have to kiss him three times, alternating ears or something? ;)

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Dude, I didn't say anything about kissing!!

Let's get this thread back on topic...jonnyo loves to ride using the feel of the womens, or something like that.

---

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Given his appearance in CO springs soon you'll probably be able to see that theory of yours play out pretty quick!

See how fast he rides after stopping at the local coffee shop (I am assuming hot womens work there). :)

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Yeah, Paulo's taking a beating in this thread. His online personality 'is what it is', but he's a good guy and knows what he's talking about.

Anyway, I'm reminded of this great quote:

"You've got to have some serious talent to have 53000 people saying "YOU SUCK"
Barry Bonds

---

**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Sorry I come off as arrogant and self-absorbed. That's not my intention. Yep, the writing is far from perfect but, like I said, I'm working on improving my communication skills so I don't leave people with that impression going forward. Always room for improvement!!

Thanks, Chris

Chris Hauth pretty much rocks! :-)

If I recall, lakerfan is pretty hot, therefore he can say whatever he wants!

i m jealous... i wish you would think i rock too.....

i didnt know who he was.... i was just asking but i finaly found out....

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

He's an amazing athlete and a super nice dude as well!! I'm sure if I ever actually meet you I would think that too, but you can't put the cart before the horse, ya know?

Jonathan, how do you know that your are in Z3 or Z4 without a HRM?

Say good-night Gracie.

well, that is pretty easy to feel, z4(thresold is something i m use to reconise pretty easy when running, i guess experience??? i can usualy guess my heart rate with in 3-4 beats at any given times.... i play that game sometimes when running with others and were a hr monitor strap but someone else as the watch....

i also do intervals on the bike with tom and i have to guess how long was the interval... he mesure them and tell me at the end of the workout if i was off or not...

i know... all this dosnt make any sence....

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Thanks Jonathan.

I have to give it to frenchie here...he seems to be very good at guessing the length of intervals. We were riding and he had 4x5 min before a local HIM but had no watch. I was making fun of him (like usual) for saying he just know when the 5 min are up. I decided to time each one. After the 4 intervals he had worked for 20:05 in total. At that point I called him an idiot for doing the extra 5 seconds that he would not have done if he had a watch. I think it also totally screwed his HIM that weekend.

T

Is he a thin-skinned pussy offline too?

This thread is supposed to be how awesome I am and how awesome my powermeter numbers are. Can we please get back to talking about that?

Do you remember in Las Cruces when we played the "guess the wattage" game when Paulo took my SRM? I am good at that one...

---

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

i have to give credit where credit is due... and it s a rappstar thread... so lets focus on rappstar that isnt in BOULDER and asnt SWIM in the RESERVOIR today.

so...yeah. you got good a guessing the watts.... i also like a lot our match of rolling resistance and aero position side by side... rappstar that is like a grizzly bear next to me was more economic on the powermeter every signle time.... must be the tire!!!!

we also did a few 100m swim guess your time and i think bigzach was good at these....not sure about you???? oups...time ot get back to talking about you!!!!

tell us more about your future plan and what race will you do now.... it s not like you have much to recover from!!!

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Funny... I just sent him an e-mail a moment ago apologizing since it didn't quite go the way I expected. My mistake was including my own data. Live and learn...

Kestrelkerri, I LOVE YOUR POSTS!!! ;-)

Thanks, Chris

I'm really bad at the guess your swim 100's. I'm only good at guess my watts. I'm okay at guess the HR.

I swam in Thetis Lake today. Thetis is just as nice as any reservoir. I have a DeDutch meeting with SuperCoach Joel to figure out races (or not). I'll let you know what decisions come out of this secret meeting.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Actually, I believe that is not your intention. So, I hope my remark didn't imply that I actually believe you are. My wording was rather insensitive and didn't make that distinction, and I apologize for not being more clear.

And, FWIW, I don't think Paulo really finds you entertaining. I think he's trying to help you--albeit in in his own inimitable manner. You'll have to decide if his repeated advice to you on this topic is solid or not.

or....i chatted with joel.....

he will send you in isolation camp somewhere near a nuclear bomb site in the us..... he want you to train there....

do you want me to get you a air matress at walmart or you will bring yours? should be a lot of fun!!!!!

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

[reply]"You are in the business of triathlon."
Yes
"You are a coaching professional"
No I am not. Also the reasons I post here are not because of business. I coach here because it entertains me. If you ask any of my athletes why they hired me, they will tell you that it's not because of my posting, it's because I am a good coach. I am pretty, pretty sure that my posting hurts my business, and you know what.... I don't give a damn!

Anyway, like I said, go back and read this thread or any other thread. Mr. lakerfan has a tendency to get his panties in a knot everytime anyone contradicts something he says. He's also the first to start with the personal attacks and, because this place is a source of entertainment to me, I have no problem whatsoever in replying to him in the same coin. He amuses me and entertains me with his narrow vision of reality and his unability to take criticism. Also the arrogance he displays in his posts (the credibility of a 3-time Kona qualifier...cripes) makes me look like a choir boy in that department, and I know I have some faults there.

So again, Dev, go back, read his attacks to me, to sinchronicity or to those that contradict him, and send him a similar note than the one you sent me. I know how you like to be a fair person.[/reply]

Dev, you get the prize for making Paulo lose his cool. We see that the wizard gets verbose (and error prone, "I coach here") when you push the right button to open the curtains.

Jonnyo, you need to coach your coach on finding a womens. The mighty Prof of Fluid Dyamics at New Mexico State U really needs some entertainment besides Slowtwitch.
.

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

 
Hey Paulo, why take personal shots at Triyoda. He just asked you to make a positive contribution.

As for post race analysis or not, obviously we all agree that everyone should have a game plan. The post race data is nice evidence to see how well it was followed, and as you know in cases where things go south, the data usually tell the tale of why
I think you missed Paulo's point. He said that the race plan was defined in subjective terms. If the plan is defined in loose subjective terms then the issue of whether the objective data supports the contention that the race was executed to plan or not is in fact... well... subjective.

To me the data shown is of interest, but at the same time meaningless. I've never trained with power, don't know this athlete and don't know the course. I think you would need multiple data sets for the same and different athletes on the same course, executing different, objectively defined race plans yielding successful and unsuccessful races to draw truly meaningful conclusions.

I'm certainly not against training with power data, its probably my next move to start doing so, and I'm sure that I can glean some knowledge from training rides that will serve me well in race preparation in order to execute a better bike segment. But I would only be able to draw a meaningful conclusion from the race data if I had a lot of training data to compare it with.

---

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TriRaceBook.com
.
Hawaii Qualification Analysis

I love the parts w/ Paulo playing the victim and getting offended that others are being mean to him. Priceless.


I swear to god it's like arguing with a woman.

This thread is supposed to be how awesome I am and how awesome my powermeter numbers are. Can we please get back to talking about that?

---

That sounds nice...

During your climb up Richter Pass or at any other point in the race did you look down at your PM and think, "Geez, I can probably go a little harder than this. Focus you BAMF."

How about you, Lakerfan, did this ever happen to you?

You're new girl Maggie misses Jonny. Please come home.

---

http://bigisland-will.blogspot.com/

I highlighted every significant point above (all of which I completely agree with too).

First, let's review a quick snapshot from his race plan:

My race plan was roughly, 280 / ~295 / ~310 by 60k, but I said that 280/290/300 would be okay depending on how I felt. I also knew that the last 60k was more like 40k, so my plan was really for ~160k. I reset my SRM every 60k, as I wanted to be able to track each increment during the race.

I didn't want to go over 330 too much (~my 1/2im target wattage), and I really didn't want to go over 350, which is the upper end of z3 according to my Coggan power numbers. And I absolutely under no circumstances ever wanted to see anything over 400, though of course I did just a very little bit

Does that seem like an RP based completely on subjective terminology to any of you? Pretty specific, imho, and something you could easily match/compare my post-race analysis data against.

One significant challenge I have is presenting multiple data sets (mind you, I did provide two). I can show you multiple data sets yielding positive/successful results but how do you think the guy who has a poor result and numbers to back it up is going to feel about me plastering it all over ST??? Believe me, I've been absolutely flooded with e-mail over the last few days and I can show you at least 2 files from IMC right now which have what I consider to be troublesome numbers but I don't even have the balls to ask the person if I can use their data to further support my analysis in any public fashion. I do know of one individual who I wish would offer up his data because I think it would be quite educational given his result but that's a decision for him, not me. Again, power data is a touchy subject. I refuse to use or share someone's data unless I get strict permission to do so. Just ask Jordan how sensitive I was in using his data. I think I asked him at least 3 times before I posted anything.

No doubt, training data is one of the most significant factors when establishing proper guidance for racing. Although, I honestly assumed that was common sense so I didn't make it a point to identify as such in my original post. As I'm sure you already know, in order to not write a book on a forum I have to make some assumptions. This is one of those assumptions. Hope that makes sense to people.

Btw, if you think you're frustrated with the so-called limited amount of data being presented in several of my posts then imagine how I feel. I have data... I have tons of data (but I have limited Pro data)... I have some very interesting private and personal conversations with people behind the scenes and I'm just absolutely dying to share it with people but unfortunately I'm limited in what I can present and say on a public forum. Jordan's willingness to share his data in this fashion is extremely rare from my experience. If you in any way find value from the information/analysis then I would ask that you thank him, not me.

So, it's safe to say that what I'm presenting is very reflective of other data sets yielding similar results. And if you haven't read this then please do -- I believe it provides some keen insight into how we think, our goal, etc. I wish Rick would have written this prior to my posting:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1468736

Thanks, Chris

chris

where would I find that

thanks


[ You should read my IMC race report. I think it might be enlightening to people...

Thanks, Chris[/reply]

At Yellow Lake... That was hard.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I only have it in pdf at the moment -- it's not posted on a website. Your e-mail isn't listed in your profile so please feel free to hit me at: chris at chriswhyte dot net

I'll reply with a copy.

Thanks!!

Chris

My experience might be different than others. Here's the best way I can answer your question...

My mind doesn't think in terms of "can I go harder at this very moment." I'm always thinking in terms of:

1. How am I currently feeling?
2. What are current conditions?
3. What are future conditions looking like?
4. What is my goal for the IM bike (as a reminder)?

I simply know what my power needs to be on Richter when I'm climbing. Now on this specific day, Richter was a critical spot in the race, imho. The winds were swirling a bit and I know all of us were saying to ourselves, "Damn... It's going to get ugly as soon as we turn the corner back toward Keremeos and through the rollers...." The decision of what I should do with my power at this point was an easy one. Patience, patience, patience... I slightly build power throughout the ride because we face conditions like we did at IMC all too often. Rather than build my power I chose to maintain it and make a decision to build later during the out-and-back. I knew I was going to be on the bike a bit longer than I originally planned.

Thanks, Chris

I can show you at least 2 files from IMC right now which have what I consider to be troublesome numbers
Thanks, Chris [/reply]

uh-oh, that could be me.

So if a VI of 1.05 is good, how bad is a VI of 1.19?

---

Grant

Actually, it wasn't you but only because I just haven't had the time to look at it yet. So sorry, I'm usually pretty good at responding immediately with, "Got your e-mail but give me some time to thoroughly review it before I respond in detail." I didn't do that with you and I apologize.

I see your file now. Yes, I have lots of questions for you... :-)

Btw, your VI was 1.13. You know this already but ride variability (VI) is just one thing to take into consideration. You are very kind (and brave) to request that I share your data openly on ST. I won't do that quite yet and might save that for a separate thread. Either way, can you tell me much more about your IM run, overall run fitness, pacing, etc (in as much detail as possible). You can do it via e-mail for now.

Thanks, Chris

Much as I've enjoyed the banter on this thread, I want to thank you for your original post. It struck me that using your power/pacing technique would be perfect for someone like me. I have completed three ID races in past five years. I'm relatively slow (IMF 12:55, GFT 12:45, GFT 12:35 - I hope my progression to break 12 is not linear) and can manage to average only about 11 hours per week of training. Frankly, I don't have the miles or experience to have confidence in my feel for appropriate pace on bike, yet, I believe that bike pacing is key to performance. Seems that with powermeter I can test my fitness and use that to develop a race pace strategy in which I'd have much more confidence than my past pacing method, which was to just go easy.
.

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

The powermeter is a great enabler. I'd rather race on a $500 frame with a powermeter, than a $5000 frame without one. There is just no substitute. And it's not just triathletes. Levi Leipheimer felt that his SRM was so valuable that he decided to race the TdF with it. Being a small guy, it wasn't hard to keep his bike at the 6.8kg limit even with an SRM. And he got himself 2nd place, despite not being, likely, the 2nd most talented athlete (obviously the team he had played a big role), but I thought his decision was very telling. The whole CSC team trains with SRM's in the offseason. And Floyd won (or whatever you want to call it with the controversy) riding a PowerTap all last year; even with the TdF title in the courts, he still won the Tour of California riding a PowerTap. I don't think there is any question as to how much of a difference it can make in your training.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

do why do you need the littel red computer on your bike when we clearly show that you dont need it to know what watts you are riding..... you guessometer was pretty accurate already...so even without the srm... you do know what watts you are riding!!!! i m a freaking genuis... i save 1lbs of your bike!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

You get stupider the harder you are exercising... Plus, I'd rather not think about it. It's easier to just look down! :)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

yes...... you are right.... we do get stupid sometimes.... like that time that you went icing your legs in the ocean and end up in a airplane flying to penticton!!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

haha! I love it! http://www.rappstar.com/...isdom-of-jonnyo.html

:)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I know it's highly individual, but I'm always interested to know what kind of cadence you fast guys are putting out on IM rides. Do you have that info?

Great race by the way. Are you still going to the Nutmeg Half? If so I'll probably see you there.

Thanks,
-Colin

---

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Jordan averaged 85rpm.

86 during the non-coasting stuff. Yes, I'll be at Nutmeg.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Wow. That's higher than expected. Is this a "low 70s on the big hills/ 95+ on the flats" type of thing, or do you keep your cadence much higher on the hills?

-C

---

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Do you bring your cadence up when you want your power to go up?

Did you start higher and trend lower throughout the ride as Slowman has observed in the Pros at Kona?

No, I ride pretty consistently in the 83-88 range, with a high of about 91 and a low of about 79. Once I exceed those outer markers, I'll shift up or down accordingly.

To answer cdanrun, nope - first 60km - avg 87, second 60k (which has most of the climbs) - avg. 85, third 60k - avg. 86.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

What about for an Olympic distance for instance, do you still pedal that same 83-88?

Are you still riding those 165's?

Would you have been a little more aggressive with your pacing if you had planned to peak for this race, or would you have ridden the same and tried to run faster?

Pretty much. I averaged 89rpm for my last Olympic.

I ride 175's. I'm 6'3" with a very, very long inseam.

I would have hopefully ridden and run faster.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I thought Slowman had mentioned you were experimenting with shorter cranks, and this is why I asked. I must be mistaken.

So, in the original post we have examples of two people who went a little too easy on the bike if this was a key race.

Where are you going to look to go a little faster on the bike? I would guess moreso on the flats than the hills.

Anyway, there's only so much I can take away from your pacing strategy...

It's interesting that we've got this thread and the 10K/IM run Thread and nobody's put them together. At least in a post.

Good luck with the rest of your season.

Clearly, our two situations are/were different. So, speaking for myself, conditions dictated that I not build power during the 2nd half of the ride. I didn't ride too easy, imho. I believe this is the mistake that so many make on race day. That mistake being: Even people with PMs can be so fixated on a number they are not willing to make dynamic adjustments during the race. My deep belief is that you have think long and hard (but real quick) about sticking to your original target when you KNOW you're going to be on the bike for a longer period of time than originally expected because training stress (TSS) is now increasing beyond a range you can sustain and still run well. Those winds were quite bad and we had a very similar experience last year at IMCDA but for entirely different reasons (ie the heat). Again, just talk to those at IMCDA who sat on their original targets and those who didn't. So, just remind yourself about your IM bike execution goal(s) and I think the answer is clear.

Hope that helps clarify things...

Thanks, Chris

the 10k/IM run thread stemmed from an email discussion among Chris, Dev, and I, so it is related to this one. Basically, it seems that you can run/ride at pretty much the same percentage of threshold power/pace - 75-80%.

I would look to go faster by pacing the same way, but just at an overall higher percentage of FTP. I.e., I'd ride the same way, just at closer to 80% of FTP rather than 75%.

Jens was the one who experimented with really short cranks, and rides 165's. Dan did mention that I switched to 175's from 180's, but that was a switch back. I.e., I rode 175's, switched to 180's last season, and switched back to 175's this season and realized that I much preferred the 175's and had much better power output, especially in the aero position, and had a much easier time riding a comfortably high cadence. So you aren't crazy... :)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"It's interesting that we've got this thread and the 10K/IM run Thread and nobody's put them together. At least in a post."

Oh, we've already put them together. You just haven't seen them put together on ST. You probably saw a glimpse of this back when amartinez posted his chart which I believe was back in late Oct/November of last year.

Thanks, Chris

Btw, Jordan's TSS was 272 which is a bit on the conservative side for someone with his capabilities, imho. The point being that his numbers very much support the idea that he'd ride a bit harder (ie closer to 80% of FTP) if he had attempted to peak for this event.

Thanks, Chris

I have to say that despite the various tangents, both of these threads have been really useful in enlightening me. The original conversation that Rappstar, Lakerfan and I had offline was based on a few datapoints that we felt were quite solid. What the 10K/IM marathon thread confirmed amplifies on one of Rappstars statements on that thread , which was that "in general, a well executed race from a well trained athlete will result in a run effort that is 75-80% of the range and that the same can be done on the bike.

Till now, I have seen numbers starting down at 70% for the bike, so I thought 70% of a 10K might be reasonable for the run...what we are seeing is that most of the FOP guys are actually going 75-80% of 10K effort, in line with Rappstar's thoughts.

Dev

Ok... so how will you apply this "new" knowledge?

My argument for how to apply it is that even Ironman athletes need to do more than LSD. You need to raise your ceiling (FTP - power on the bike, pace on the run). Speedwork and high-intensity work has it's place, even in Ironman training. I think that is something that is lost in favor of "base, base, base." If someone was saying "okay, so I see how this thread can guide my racing, but what does it say about my training," that's what I'd tell them.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

What are you trying to say? I'm a bit confused.

"Ironman athletes need to do more than LSD"
"Speedwork and high-intensity work has it's place, even in Ironman training"

Do more volume AND more intensity (than most think)? Hardly ground breaking?

The premises do not support the conclusion though...
You've found out what people usually run thier IM run pace at.. and you conclude that people need to train in a certain way to run that pace.
Wouldn't you need to find out how they're TRAINING, compare it to their RACE result... to gather any conclusions....

Must be dialectic confusion. "Ironman athletes need to do more than LSD." By this I mean, that just doing LSD alone is not sufficient. I wasn't suggesting that you need more volume at all. In fact, given the amount of time most athletes have, I think more intensity (and maybe less volume) would be better for many athletes.

I disagree that the premises that do not support the conclusion. If most athletes run and bike their Ironman at X% of FTP, then shouldn't a part of the focus of the training be on raising FTP? And in order to raise FTP, you need to do intensity, not just Z2 base mileage. Obviously you need to examine how a specific athlete trains. I am speaking about what I perceive is the general approach to Ironman training - "big base miles." I believe this is not ideal for most AG athletes for a couple of reasons, but mostly it has to do with time. You can't train the way someone who trains 35 hours a week trains if you are doing 15 hours a week.

I was merely trying to offer a general piece of advice, which is that high-intensity training, such as you would do for an Olympic distance or sprint race, still has a place in an Ironman program. I'm not sure that is such a revolutionary idea, but I do think it's something that is overlooked (how often, I don't know, but I get the sense that it is regularly, just from what I read on this forum and in some of the magazines, for whatever that is worth).

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp