It's a fun city around Pearl Street. Lots of good restaurants down there. Too many pothead hippies but smoking of any kind is outlawed in all the establishments. Check Illegal Pete's for the best and cheapest burritos!

How can you test your limits when you don't have a number to represent those limits that are being tested?

Yes, it was intended to be a key phrase (specific to how he used a PM at IMC). And yes, having spent some time exchanging e-mail with Jordan, he clearly knows the importance of executing ALL components (eg hydration/nutrition) on the IM bike but this post by him clearly emphasizes the importance of using a PM when racing:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1459399#1459399

Thanks for reading the post.

Chris

non sequitur

I think that completely depends on the individual. Look at Hauth's ride at IMH:

http://www.performancelabshc.com/pages.php?id=129

That's about as steady as it gets throughout the entire ride.

I should also point out that the last 4 Pro's IM power data I've looked at is all reflective of relatively low variability. So, dynamic race tactics at IMH might not play as much of a factor in your variability as it would be in your overall profile. IOW, your VI could likely still be quite low (and possibly should be quite low) but you'll yield a declining curve. You'll initially work hard (ie >80% of FTP) to make sure you're part of that "draft-legal" train but once you're on it, you'll likely sit quite steady on more comfortable watts...

Thanks, Chris

So how well did you run off the bike, since you compare yourself to Rappstar?
And I am not talking about feel, I am talking numbers!

And before you start to explain:

There are people out there who have not developed the feel for the water, the effort, the excertion of aerobic sports. Training with any kind of tool is certainly appropriate for people who have no awarness of their body and/or jump into a sport they have never participated in their lives before.

But telling others who have grown up developing a sense for their limits and capabilities in "aerobic" sports that they should now listen to numbers instead of their intuition and experience is a little over the top, don't you agree?

I am kind of shocked that you say others who don't agree on the "training by numbers" concept are "bashing" those who do.

I do however have a problem with you saying that this ought to be the only way to improve or execute well at a race.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

who is haulth?????? i dont think he was in the front pack????

i agree pretty much on everything you say, but you will see at many times very high numbers in hawaii that you would not see in another ironman(if you have a powermeter) In hawaii, it does matter if the srm read 400 watts going up a hill or 350 for the first 5 minutes of the ride.... you need to go and follow if you can so powermeter is not usefull at all, just ride with the group and hope for the best. But this race is very different from the age group race.

my file last year in hawaii was interesting in the sence that my 5 minutes in the group show me how fast the ride was at the start...and like you said, settle down a bit on the highway. but if you have a shot at finishing in the top 10.... you dont ride according to your powermeter but according to how the group rides. then, make your choice as to if you can ride alone, ahead or drop back..... but there is definitly a fartleck components to this race that you wont see in a race like canada where the highest watts reading for me would have been maybe 350 watts compare to my peak 600 in kona.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

lakerfan dosnt say it s the only way..... not from what i understand, he present a different perspective....that can be good for some...not as good for others...

of course, most elite athlete at the front of the races dont use powermeters in racing..... that speak for itself....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Wow!! You read things into my post I never imagined someone would walk away with... I'm not telling people they should now listen the numbers. Could you please point out where I said that? If any of you are successful training and racing completely "by feel" then I strongly suggest you continue to do so and, I promise, I hope you continue with incredible success. Better yet, I hope you go through the effort of sharing your success with others.

Hopefully this helps explain it a bit better but I feel like I'm probably just repeating myself...

First, if you're not interested in the numbers then why bother reading the thread? The thread is a NUMBERS analysis focused SOLELY on power on the IM bike at IMC. However, it is very reflective of many other solid IM bike performances I have seen or analyzed. As I already stated, it does not cover an analysis of RPE, HR, nutrition, hydration, etc. It covers power. If you're not interested in power numbers then why would you want to comment and say this is a waste of time?? What am I missing? I don't know... I would never go over to a thread in which I have no interest or possibly no understanding and say, "What you guys are doing is a waste of time." Sorry but that just seems like a complete lack of class to me. Maybe I'm weird but I honestly thought it was common sense.

So, I assumed this would just go without saying but if you're interested in seeing some common characteristics specific to how one would/could/should apply power during the IM bike then I hope you truly find this analysis helpful. Honestly, I've probably looked at more power files than about 99% of the people in the industry because I've shown a keen interest in doing so. I'm just trying to share what I think I've learned from the experience. Why would anyone in the world want to criticize someone so unconstructively for just trying to help others? Obviously I'm still baffled...

My run:

3:33:21 which was a PR. Quite remarkable that I PRed considering I suffered from severe stomach gas/cramping the first 14miles and I've been dealing with a dysfunctional SI joint since May. Btw, my stomach cramping/gas is related to a form of diverticulitis and a "twisty" colon or so I'm told. This is something I experience in every IM but this IM was most painful for me (up until mile 14). I've written a very detailed RR but given how well this thread has gone I've chosen not to share it on ST.

My run splits:

1st run segment: 1:46:18
2nd run segment: 1:47:03

I took at least a minute at the mile14 aid station because of an "issue." I estimate my FT pace at 6:15 - 6:20 (probably much closer to the latter given my run fitness this summer) so I ran around ~77% of FT pace. According to my data, I did my fastest running after mile 16.

Again, I hope this helps clarify my goal and my perspective.

Btw, the reason why I'm going through the effort of explaining why I'm doing this is because I assumed people understood that this was a limited analysis. I didn't cover RPE, HR, nutrition, etc because I would have to write a book in order to do so. I hope people understand that someone who finishes top 5 Pro or top 5 in a highly competitive AG understands the importance of racing by RPE, nutrition/hydration intake and possibly HR too because it's really really hard to finish at that level and screw something else up. Just because I didn't address those other components in my original post doesn't mean I don't think they're important to consider when racing.

Thanks, Chris

I think you're jumping to conclusions about lakerfan's posts. From former posts he has stated that:
- He's not a coach, nor he wants to be a coach.
- He doesn't advocate that people follow his way to see Ironman racing.
- He doesn't pretend that his way of doing things he's the right way.
- He doesn't know how to gather useful data from the significant amout of "data" he has gathered these past years.

This leaves us with the one conclusion:
- His posts are just to tell us how "successful" he is. LOOK AT ME!!!

Paulo, if you don't like what lakerfan is saying then why are you reading the post? I think it's been very informative and provides some good analysis that most agers could benefit from. Since you choose to provide very little in the way of useful information then maybe you should consider letting discussions that OTHERS find useful continue.

Because by reading his posts, it is easy to conclude that by training and racing with a powermeter you become a slave to the numbers. To some people that takes the enjoyment of riding and racing. Also you might be inclined to think that unless you have a very high-level of expertize in analyzing power data, the powermeter is not for you.

The powermeter is an excellent training tool that can be used by all to improve, without needing each and everyone of us to become a slave to the numbers or to ride and race without enjoyment.

My takeaway was a little different in that it showed how consistent pacing can yield good bike & run splits. Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but it appears that lakerfan's post-analysis numbers are more supporting that strategy as opposed to saying be a slave to the pm.

Interesting though is that jordan used a pm while jonnyo didn't, and both had excellent days.

But then 99% of the people who read this forum aren't at the front of the pack either...

Btw, one of themes I'm exploring is the belief that Pros ride and should ride with a lot more variability than you're typical AGer because of (more) dynamic race tactics. This is the primary reason why I compared Jordan's ride to mine. So, what I'm beginning to believe is that's not necessarily true. Profiles might look different depending on how the race plays out on the bike but variability is relatively low. However, it's tough to get enough Pro data to make a confident observation. I find it interesting but others may not.

Carl, don't worry about Paulo. Better yet, just ignore him. You got to admit... He's insecurity creates a fair amount of comedy and as long as he continues to post he draws attention to thread. I'm beginning to see a greater benefit to his meaningless antics. You just need to look for and find the positive in the negative... :-)

Thanks, Chris

Yes, and most of them use tubulars. And lots of them have water bottles on the frame. And several of them have very bad bike positions. And a couple don't use aero helmets.

So, does that mean you are going to do likewise? :)

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You're a terrible psychologist, which makes you a bad coach... oh wait... we already knew that!

chris

the reason i chime in (i won't speak for anyone else) is because i think your obsession with numbers goes too far. i think there are other perspectives on how to maximize performance. a powermeter is potentially a useful tool, but there are many other tools i would find to be more useful. i don't doubt your interest, but if you're that passionate about it, then you shouldn't mind defending your position. i learned to not mind being questioned about my coacing philosophies because it was a chance to back it up and make sure i knew the reasons for what i was doing.

the men's pro race in hawaii is a completely different dynamic. trying to compare jordan's race in canada (or anywhere really, because he can't swim with the front pack) to that scenario is ridiculous. if you want to be competitive in hawaii you have to go hard at the beginning and make the train. the benefit is more than worth the cost. and using hauth as an example doesn't work either. he raced age group last year.

finally, no disrespect to jordan, but i would say based on his previous performances this summer he should have ridden a hell of a lot faster in canada. didn't dan say as much in his pre race prediction. so if his numbers back up your data, then i would say my hunch that your numbers put unnecessary limiters on performance is correct.

true.... you ride with a bottle on your frame and ride tubular !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....no need to reply... i know the reasons!!!

as for bad position..... well, let s not be too fast in judging.... look at the front pack in hawaii.... there is a good reason why these guys ride a bit upright.....the race dosnt finish at t2. and for aero helmet,... it s the same...some will overheat in them...some wont be bother about them.... so it s personal...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

forget miles... forget hours... track stress.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Hey Paulo, Chris is not saying "become a slave to numbers". While I don't neccessarily train like he does, and frankly based on Jonnyo's descriptions of what you make him do, what I do is very similar in both training and racing, many of us still see value in Chris' analysis.

In running, we have our splits per mile that are the equivalent (more or less) or power numbers as long as we take some level of terrain and wind into the analysis...but the variability if much less than on the bike. On the bike, the best way to know if you came to an even or negative split is to see power meter numbers.

Why not just let the discussion flow? Chris is not saying "look how great I am". He's just showing how a steady ride really sets folks up for a good Ironman performance. Rappstar got 5th pro and Chris got 5th in 40-44 attacking the ride in this manner. It is rare that we get this much insight into what lead up to successful race outcomes.

Why do you feel the need to personally attack anyone that posts what they feel is a means to success? There are different paths to success, and not each one of us ticks the same way.

Frankly, my own path to my successful races have been with zero data...just feel. At Ironman LP, I had no watch, no Powermeter, no nothing....just feel...OK, feel and cadence on the bike...but that is it. I compete in another sport (XC skiing), where you have to to go with the pack, and race by feel and by the pace dictated by others, so I likely have a better sense of what degree I can spike things up to and keep going...or make tradeoffs on when I want to burn up a finite supply of matches over a long race, but I can still learn from the tactics and analysis of others!

Dev

Ha! I heard that same quote at coffee today. Norman= watts monster.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Dev,

Go back and see who's consistently dishing out the personal attacks and come back to me. Looking forward to see you post in reply to lakerfan and asking him the same.

Funny Mark Cavendish said this about one of the stages in the tour when the hammer was put down his SRM wasn't going below 500 watts so he had to go back to the team car to get some tape to cover it up as it was doing his head in.

And you expected something else, considering it is coming from a horses Arse

I thought we had an agreement that you would email me and let me know when you were supplying comedy and completely hijacking a post? Damn you....