It really depends on how you use the tools. I would not call a power meter a toy, if it is used properly it is far from a toy.

If a coach can only see athletes in terms of their data, sure there are not doing a good job of coaching. But likewise, to use the other extreme, a coach who watches an athlete run and says they look "good" is also not doing a sound job of coaching. Coaches need information, and the more of it they gather and know how to use properly, the better off the athlete is. I don't know why we have to keep up the either/or discussion of using training tools. In my book, a good coach knows his/her athletes, and uses all the tools available to help them get faster.

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Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
http://www.digittri.com

I believe he set himself up perfectly for the run.

I am not much of a numbers man, but this is the key phrase in the whole post.

Despite his in-experience at this distance Jordan knew that to do well in an IM you need to run well and to run well the bike really needs to be no harder than a moderatly hard training ride.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

MUFFIN!! I'm graduating in December!!!!!!!!!!! Now this is a highjack! :-)

congratulations, i have to wait until may. do you know what you want to do?

While I might be perceived as the "anti numbers guy", I agree with ML. There is a place for everything.

While I don't take power to the road, I have a reasonable feel for what my road performance equates to as I go by power indoors. Jodi, I do agree that seeing numbers all the time can suck the fun out of training and frankly like you, I do it 90% for fun...but I also like to extract some semblance of performance out of my body, so I would say 10% of the time in training, I use numbers...I go to the track, or I do a fixed TT course, or I run on the treadmill, swim in the pool on timed intervals or ride the TACX trainer with power output.

Tracking numbers in every workout can become somewhat frustrating for many of us, however, they have a place if you are interested in maximizing performance for the available fitness that you have.

ML and Jonnyo are examples of guys who train with power and are in synch with their bodies to the point that on race day, even without a powermeter (ex ML IMLP 2006), they can still pace things out at the appropriate % of FT as if they have the meter staring them in the face. I guess that is why I go to the track and get on the trainer from time to time...it allows me to remove variables that affect pace and let's me guage the pace/intensity/effort that I might expect to execute at over a variety of race distances...more importantly, it tells me what I cannot go over too many times.

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OK, on another note, in an offline discussion that Lakerfan, Rappstar and I had, we were trying to determine what % of 10K run race pace one could expect to sustain for an Ironman, assuming the bike and run prep were in place. The summary/consensus/conclusion was that OK = (10K pace/0.7), Good = (10K pace/0.75), Outstanding Execution = (10K pace/0.8).

In my example, where I am in 37 min 10K shape, with a 70% effort of the 10K pace I ended up with a 3:42 run...not great, but OK :-). At 75% of the 10K intensity I would have ended up in the Murphy's Law approved 3:28 run splilt. I believe Jordan ended up at 75-75% of his 10K pace when we did our analysis.

Fleck, when you were running your best at Ironman, what were your Ironman and 10K times.



Dev

dev, i dont train with power anymore..... i havent been since soma half ironman and all my breaktorught and great race have been done on feel for training and racing....

numbers are there to entertain people. The are not necessary but arent negative either. Yes, powermeter is a toy....A TOY. whatever use you make of it, it s a toy and i prefer to get to know my body so well that it will pay off in racing. Powermeter can always let you down or be miscalibrated....

but they are a fun toy for some and can teach you valuable lessons. but they dont teach you anything different that a good coach could using words with subjectivity.

to each our own approche and hope everyone as a blast on the road.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Fleck, when you were running your best at Ironman, what were your Ironman and 10K times.

Not sure how this applies but life-time best 10K was 31:XX on the road. However, I was never in that sort of shape when I was running my best Ironman marathons.

More to the gist of the thread, a favourite workout of mine that I would do in the final 6 weeks of specific IM prep was to go for a hard 4 hour bike ride and then go directly to the track and run exactly 7:00min/miles for a number of miles. I would try and do this as blind as I could i.e. just check the split at each mile mark and not every lap. The clock does not lie, so you would know EXACTLY what that specific pace felt like. The fatigue in the legs at T2 and all the hype and the fans cheering had a tendancy to throw the PE and sense of pace way off, so it was good to know exactly how that pace felt, then on race day you could hit it without any problems even if the mile markers were off or the watch was not working. I could tell that I had a good run going, when it felt like I had the brakes on for the first 5 - 6 miles but was still running 7:00 min/mile dead-on.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It seems that pacing for the run and pacing for the bike are pretty close, at least if you look at them as a function of "threshold power" (which would be threshold or ~10k pace for the run). I.e., the percentage of power you ride at and have a successful race is pretty close to the pace you can run at successfully. What this really says is that you need to train the top end. Doing "base" miles will only get your so far, even in Ironman. Of course athletes do exceed those numbers in the last 10k or so of the run all the time, but those are the people that have trained right, and they are usually the ones winning the race.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think that if you bike over 20 hours a week, week after week, you probably get to a point where you know your power by feel. I'm lucky if I get 2 rides a week in totaling 6 hrs.

Once I started using a PM I started getting off the bike at Ironman feeling great. If someone were planning to only do one Ironman I would recommend to them that they get a power meter and learn how to use it.

For example, my wife rides once a week for 3 hours. I took her threshold, set power goals for her early, on flats and on climbs. She rode 105 miles of the IMC course last week in just over 6 hours, and got off and ran 4 miles.

She has never ridden over 60 miles in her life, but with the PM she was able to pace the longer distance correctly and enjoyed the experience enough that she's signed up for IMC next year.

The only down side is now we need a second PM.

Jesus jonnyo, resize that picture.


Doing "base" miles will only get your so far, even in Ironman.


Raise the left, fill the right. Interesting that so many people are anti-powermeter. I'll bet they still log their miles though, a much cruder form of measurement lacking any notion of intensity.

Fleck, let me ask it more simply. When you were running close to 3 hours flat at IMC, how fast were you running 10Ks (or what is your estimate of what the 10K would have been).

Jonnyo, thanks for the update. I did not know that you had completely ditched training by power on the bike, however, I suspect that based on the time you spent training with power, you had a good feel for what you were doing out there on the course. I think you even said that you got things up over 80% of FTP on Richter, which would imply an estimate of how hard you were going and what your FTP is, all based on perceived exertion (which is how I generally train and race)?

Dev

i do have a good idea of what i m riding for watts and all. but it s purely a enjoyement thing.... so many other fast rider dont use powermeter, they prefer to ride and get to know themself ..... i was aware of what i could back off and run from the training i have done, i have a mental meter that mesure all this in races.... it s just a different way to race.

the fun thing this year is that i havent done any intervals ...paulo dont give me stuff like 2X 1h or 3X30z3 or anything like this, he knows i just ride the terrain so he will say....get 90 minutes of z3 work and i will find some hills and ride them at feel for about 90 minutes and learn how much my body can do and what to avoid and not do.

I guess all these valuable info wont be usefull in hawaii, i heard it s a very ''fartleck like ride'' and you play follow the leader if you have the legs.... i m sure having a powermeter would scare the shit out of me as last year, the first 20 minutes had a lot of 300-500 watts reading on the srm....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Jonnyo, the gist of your quote at Kona last year on Saturday nite after the race was, "Norman caught me at Palani....I did 600W for a few seconds and went back to doing my own race...."

I'm planning for med surg the first year, just to gain some experience and then I want to move to ICU. I'm talking to Scripps La Jolla, so hopefully that's where I'll end up!

Ok, back to your power gadgets and stuff.

When you were running close to 3 hours flat at IMC, how fast were you running 10Ks (or what is your estimate of what the 10K would have been).

Around 33:00, I am guessing. Which I think is pretty close - that's about 5:20 pace which when you are doing specific IM prep is nearly all out!! I recall being able to do mile repeat workouts( 5 or 6 X 1 mile) at the time in 5:10 - 5:20. The more important runs were the long runs where I would start out at 7:00 min mile and then bring it home for the back half at close to 6:00 min/mile.

7:00 min/mile needed to be the all-day default pace. The pace that you could run at forever, and even when trashed still keep turning it over at that pace.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Brent, I'm not trying to "tell the whole story." I'm just trying to tell part of the story from a numbers-analysis perspective. I'm not trying to coach anyone here but trying to get people to see what are common characteristics of successful IM bike performances. The two IM bike performances I analyzed in this thread came from two podium finishers. They are an exact reflection of the many other successful IM bike performances I have sitting in a folder on my laptop.

What I find most unfortunate is that some people feel a need to contribute negatively to a thread they clearly have no interest in. What does that say about the individual? I can only speak for myself but I've had incredible success training and racing with a PM. I thoroughly enjoy using one and thoroughly enjoy helping others get the most out of one. That is my passion in life.

I'm directly the question to you only to address the negative comments about PMs so far... What if I was to say, "What a complete waste of time to go to med school when everything we need to heal ourselves is within our own minds." Why would anyone ever feel like they should destroy someone else's passion when we know that it's making a positive difference in their life or performance??? I have a really hard time with that one...

I should point out that I could take the PM off my bike today and it wouldn't change a thing in how I ride. My brain has been (re)calibrated due to the PM. The reason why I continue to ride with a PM is because I'm pursuing one of my passions in life and that is helping others achieve their goals in the sport of IM.

Thanks, Chris

FLOATING TURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





TURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

I think you're being a little harsh on Dev here...

I think that a picture of a floating snickers bar, that looks like a turd, is a positive contribution

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

You're obviously just a classless individual.

Loosen up a little pauly. You ever seen the movie? People in America think this was a "funny" scene.

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

Read "Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales. Just because we we're succesfull , doesn't necessarily mean the plan was the right one.

He says something to the effect of, "Often we succeed in spite of our actions (Plan), rather than because of them"

Dude, your such a jackass, its clearly a brown trout.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06