Nothing wrong with not wanting to do one and staying with shorter distances. I think more and more people are signing up for IM's these days because they feel like they have to. I've done 5 IM's and took a break two years ago to go back to short-course racing for a year just to do something different where I started to feel burnt out. It gave me a new appreciation and respect for the shorter distances and what it takes to do well in them.

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"You can never win or lose if you don't run the race." - Richard Butler

As far as Ironman being the pinnacle of this sport...well let's just say I would rather finish an Oly distance under 2 hours(which btw takes a lot more training) rather than finishing an Ironman in 15-16 hours.

apples and oranges ... I'd rather finish an IM under 10 than an Oly in 2:40.

Real question is whether you'd rather finish an IM under 10 or an Oly under 2? I'd say the IM under 10 would take more training, and would be viewed as more of an accomplishment by most in the sport.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

Most Americans think "bigger is better." So I think a lot of participants would rather say they finished an Ironman than put in the effort to get faster at the shorter races. It would be like if you were tell friends that you ran a 5K in 15 minutes, compared to telling them that you ran a marathon in 4 hours. They'd be more impressed by the slower, longer marathon.

Having said that, I did my first IM this year after 7 seasons in the sport. I always said I'd never do it, but I was glad I tried out the event. However I don't plan to do it again any time soon: the time commitment is unrealistic for me to do year after year, and I am better suited to short course racing. I do not think people should get sucked into the "vortex" of racing longer & longer. For me, it was not a life changing experience to become an Ironman.

I disagree with the idea that Ironman is the "pinnacle" and that comment really pissed me off. But I think that because it is the only distance that has any sort of World Championships which include the allure of qualifying, etc. it can seem that way. If someone gets Age Group Nationals or 1/2 IM Nationals to somehow really become something worth qualifying for, we may see more interest in these distances.

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Suffering on the the bike is always more fun than suffering on the run.

I think you summed it up perfectly. The allure is definately in the mystique surrounding "marathon" or "ironman". Most people will probably admit that they will never be "fast", but can aquire admiration or self satisfaction by going long. And all that really takes is time in training. After my first IM this year, I can honestly say that while I loved every second of the race and the training lifestyle leading up to it, in terms of payoff it was diminishing returns. Too much time & money, too much obsession (which was my own fault) and a huge "what now?" when it all came to an end.

I'll pass on the IM next year, and I'm really looking forward to the local sprints & oly.

I can go long. Anyone can go long. Going fast is the greater challenge.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

When you read this thread, you can tell whose immature and who isn't!!!

Well, I've only been in triathlon for 4 years. But I've been dreaming of IM for the past 20. Finnaly did Wisconsin and to be honest...I hated it.

I enjoy the occasional 9+ hour bike ride or a 20+ mile run. I would swim around Key west just for fun. But doing an IM was one of the worst experiences of my life. Left me in the doldrums of depression for months. I'd be ok not ever doing one again except that I have mannaged to do well (ie win) at every other distance. So, I'll probably do another one...but I wont like it ;)

Daytona 500 is the pinnacle event of stock car races. Fine.

I have no problem with the copncept that World Cup is the pinnacle of soccer.

And in both of these examples, the "pinnacle" that you describe is THE SAME REALM as all the contests of that sport.

The Olyimpics is the pinnacle of track and field, sure. But would you say that the marathon is the pinnacle of track and field? Of course not. So then to say that Ironman is the pinnacle of triathlon is equally absurd.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

"to say that Ironman is the pinnacle of triathlon is equally absurd. "

Simon Whitfield is much more known by the general public in Canada than is Peter Reid or any other Canadian IM triathlete. Winning an Olympic gold goes a long way, much further than winning IM Kona it seems.

True, but the olympic coverage that Whitfield probably recieved had more to do with that that anything else. I'd bet if you put an IM event in the olympics, you (the collective canadian public) wouldn't even know who was competing in the shorter event.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I agree, but I appreciate all the feedback whether positive, negative or other. There are many points of view and getting a glimpse into as many posted here on this thread has been a treat. This was not a troll, and I don't think it was an affirmation though it has sort of become that, but more like a week moment after another conversation with a non-triathlete about non sports related topics that culminated in "so you do those Iron Man races in Hawaii that take a couple of days?" I just snapped and posted. I wouldn't have been suprised if the post rolled off the page in five minutes.



By the way...I love chasing those mule deer around your neck of the woods. I hunted right behind the Jesse James movie set this year. Have you been up to try and get a look at Brad Pitt yet?

I agree that your comparison is a little more fair, but look at it this way:

Theoretical 2 Hour Oly Race: :21 1.5k (1:24/100m) - :1 T1 - :60 40k (24.8mph) - :1 T2 - :37 10k (5:58/mile)

Theoretical 10 Hour IM: 1:05 1.2mi (1:42/100m) - :2 T2 - 5:21 112mi (20.9mph) - :2 T2 - 3:30 26.2mi (8:01/mile)

I would never turn my nose up at someone's 10 Hour Ironman, but I just don't find any of the splits or paces impressive. I realize that the difficulty lies in stringing the three events together and you can't really analyze each event individually but I think the 2 Hour Oly paces are much more impressive even if you look at them as standalone events.

Add to that the fact that Ironman is a glorified duathlon and I just don't have an interest in it either. I am not even a swimmer, but at least make the swim have some sort of an impact on the race. A lot of ironman athletes like to snub draft legal ITU racing because the bike is a 'draft fest' and 'those guys can't even bike'. Look at your event, you don't even have to be able to swim a lick to make it to Kona which according to some in this thread is the 'Pinnacle' of the sport. It is no less a two event sport than ITU racing is.

But, different strokes for different folks, there is certainly room for all of us in this sport and I think we are all just out to have some fun anyway.

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"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"

Someday I'll walk through an IM, for the experience. I'm fairly sure I can do 16:30, and get full value for my entry fee ;-)

It's not on the agenda for the next few years, I won't have the time for IM training. If you look at the guys who are competitive on 10hrs/week or less, you'll find a lot of bigger weeks than that in their past: or some very deep single-sport background..

Also, my life is getting shorter by the day, I've already spent significant chunks of it running. No regrets, but there are other things to do now.

That said, I've been hovering around the 2:20 Oly on 3 hrs/week, I plan on "pushing it up" (hah!) to 4-5hrs/wk in a final attempt this year. If I don't hit my goals on July 8th, then I'll do the Boulder HIM just for grins.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

As far as if Ironman is the pinnacle of triathlon, I'd have to say that this is a personal decision. Quite simply, you KNOW if Ironman is your calling if after watching the NBC broadcasts of the Hawaii Ironman (no matter how cheesy at times it can get), if it evokes/stirs emotions from within. Those that have experienced this sensation know what I'm talking about!

That said I have a real problem with your question of choosing which one you would rather achieve: sub 10 hour IM or sub 2 hour Olympic tri. I have competed in 7 IM's and just this year broke the 10 hour barrier; next year I plan on breaking the 2 hour barrier for an Olympic distance tri. I will do more IM's (see previous paragraph), but am taking a break from IM to compete in shorter tris: sprints, Olympics, and Xterra races. It makes for a good change of pace, both physically and mentally.

Just to do a triathlon is great, and for people to put pressure on others to do IM is ridiculous. When people ask me if they should do an IM, I ask them to watch an Ironman broadcast and I ask them how they felt while watching it. You just know if it's for you. Every distance of triathlon is its own puzzle, as you have to figure out how to "race" it well. For some, short distance is their thing, for others IM is their thing. Both are equally impressive and an accomplishment.

General comments about the thread ...

[1] You don't wanna do an IM race, don't. Whether you do or not really doesn't matter to anyone other than you anyway.

[2] To all that seem to feel that IM prep takes a huge amount of time (weekly time). Have you read any of the numerous threads of people that do well (relative) on training time that is more likely associated with "sprint racing"?

[3] One insinuation bothers me, (summation) "IM training takes up so much time that I am not willing to trade my family, life, etc for the training. This accomplishes 3 things (intended or not): (1) It validates the non-challenge of not doing an IM race, (2) It insults those that do by suggesting that they are sacrificng vital parts of their lives to do it, and lastly (3) it places people in a hierarchy based on the assumptions of how they are living their life and their priorities.

[4] How many hours/week are the 1:50 to 2:30 Oly triathletes putting in during an average week? Compare that to the IM averages of many IM folks here, and I bet it's be surprising? I'm wondering if it takes more training time to [1] get faster at the Oly distance, than it does to [2] gain endurance for the IM distance. I'm guessing it actually takes less time and less focused training to "go long" (focus on finishing) than it does to get really good at Oly racing (for the majority of people). Be interesting to hear from those with more "know".

[5] Are the majority of people doing Oly races because they enjoy that distance or because they feel that's the distance they have time for? Seems to be quite a few on both sides, wondering about a consensus.

[6] How can a person say that Kona is not the pinnacle of the sport? One may disagree/argue whether or not it should be, but certainly not whether it is or not.

As others have mentioned "collect the whole set". Interesting way of looking at it.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I think "accomplishment" must be viewed in a number of different contexts: the best you know you can do; the best you can do in the eyes of your peers, or others; the best, compared to some external standard.

The best you know you can do has nothing to do with genetic endowment, nor even the time you have for training - it's very flexible and quite subjective.

In the eyes of your peers could be as broad as non-triathlete drinking buddies, strangers that see your t-shirt as you stroll through the mall, or as specific as other triathletes who have posted similar times to yours in similar, recent races.

The external standard is usually how you place, and even age group placement is external, since people's native ability varies so much. Actually being able to finish an ironman in the allotted time is also such a standard, and you get a medal for it.

The only point in dissing people outside of your "accomplishment" category, as I see it, is: is it funny? And even then...
*Within* your category, by all means let the gauntlets be thrown down!

In my first ever race of any kind (a 20k road race in 2001) I noticed that the people coming in close to last still looked like athletes - because they were athletes. But then I define an athlete as someone who not only gives their all in the pursuit of "altior fortiter celeriter" , but by training lifts their ability to get still higher, stronger or faster.

Another may define as an athlete one who is strong, fast or nimble enough to make money at it, in a small or large arena. Or a triathlete as one who has done Kona under 10 hours.

Just so long as we know what we;re talking about, and why.

One day maybe I'll break 2.30 in an oly; I will never go sub 2. I will be disappointed (or maybe not) if my IM takes longer than 13 hours. I may not go as fast as you, but I'll put my heart and soul into it because, damn, I'm a triathlete! I'm someone who, if the invaders were coming and I had to do a Laura Secord or a Paul Revere, would be able to swim the lake, cycle through the lines and then run over the mountain to pass the message along. Ahahahaha! Heee-ahahaha!

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"I'm going to stick to my sardines" - Cassidy
"Others took their lemons and stood up and walked." - Kestrelkerri
"I will never know quite why I set out on the run. I guess because it was next." - Nachocheese
"No, just to people on the Forum. My athletes are the control group." - Paulo Sousa
" Actually, I am naturally an Asshole....not unlike the way you are naturally an idiot." IRONLOBO

My apologies if I offended ones feelings. I wrote my feelings and everything I wrote is fairly true, and a little sarcasm. The name of this forum is Slowtwitch usually refering to the guys who lack fasttwitch muscles Related to speed. That was me. In HS track there were about 4 guys that couldn't run the 100-400 meters to save our lives, we made up the "distance" guys and got to run miles and miles while the sprint guys ran for 10sec to 1 min and rested..
In college swimming there were 4 or 5 guys that could not get down the pool and back in 22 seconds or under 48 seconds for 4 lengths. They had a nice event called the 200 Fly, 500, 1,000, and at conference the 1,650 just for us. But by Gawd we could out last those guys.
I am just saying the guys with the need for speed probably never really understood what was up with a race more than a few min long. And I think I respect a guy who can go a 1:55 Oly even as much or maybe more than an under 10 hr Ironman.
As to the old farts, I are one and so are probably 80% of the Slowtwitchers. If there are exclusive groups of young and old, young stops at 25 years. If the average life expectancy is 75 years. Young is 0-25, middle age is 25-50, and old is 50-75. True but not what we want to hear.

As far as the Pinnacle of the sport. I was around and competing when Ironman was way out there on the fringe of lunacy vs sport and people really wondered if we were not to good in the head. I can't tell you the number of times between 1982 and 1990 people asked me why anyone would want to do an Ironman? Now people don't ask that as much any more. In the future maybe Ironman will lose some luster and the Ultraman or double Iron will become the race of the real tough guys. I think 90% of Slowtwitch readers could finish an Ironman. I doubt if 10% could line up for a double Ironman and finish at all.
As far as dissing folks, that is what is fun in life. I trash talk all my workout buddies all the time, that is half the fun and keeps the pecking order in line. Have a good holidays. G

TT good points. I agree with almost everything you wrote. Especially

[3] One insinuation bothers me, (summation) "IM training takes up so much time that I am not willing to trade my family, life, etc for the training. This accomplishes 3 things (intended or not): (1) It validates the non-challenge of not doing an IM race, (2) It insults those that do by suggesting that they are sacrificng vital parts of their lives to do it, and lastly (3) it places people in a hierarchy based on the assumptions of how they are living their life and their priorities.

and

[4] How many hours/week are the 1:50 to 2:30 Oly triathletes putting in during an average week? Compare that to the IM averages of many IM folks here, and I bet it's be surprising? I'm wondering if it takes more training time to [1] get faster at the Oly distance, than it does to [2] gain endurance for the IM distance. I'm guessing it actually takes less time and less focused training to "go long" (focus on finishing) than it does to get really good at Oly racing (for the majority of people). Be interesting to hear from those with more "know".

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

I find marathon training overwhelming at times in both respects, so I know I'm not ready to tackle the IM beast.

I found racing a marathon to be harder than finishing an IM, in terms of pain and soreness when I was finished. The time to prepare was longer for an IM but if you are just out to finish, most of the training is pretty easy pace. Racing an IM would be a different story.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Real question is whether you'd rather finish an IM under 10 or an Oly under 2? I'd say the IM under 10 would take more training, and would be viewed as more of an accomplishment by most in the sport.


IMO: much more impressive to go sub - 2:00 than sub - 10:00. I did a quick search: at Memphis in May (Olympic distance race with fast course and a large, competitive field), only 17 guys broke the 2 hour barrier. At IM-Florida, 128 people were under 10 hours.

Erik and TT,

Assertion #3 could not be any further from the truth or the point of this thread. I figured there would be a few others here to balance the overwhelming assumers outside slowtwitch that all "know" a triathlete isn't a triathlete until they do IM.

This thing has taken on a life of its own and I am blown away by the different points of view. I insinuate nothing, and since i typed the damn thing I know whether or not I insinuated anything. As for Hierarchies...I am a plumber. Do you know where plumbers are on a hierarchy? Not only do I know where I fall in any "hierarchy", but I am comfortable there and in my own skin.

All I was looking for were a few people who think going short is enough for them. How anyone can distort this into something to be offended by is beyond me. I was gracious and complimentary of any and all IM'ers, even the swimming kind. I don't get people who wake up offended, become more defensive and go to bed irate. If your day began in search of the daily offense and I provided a target to tag it to then I am happy to oblige. Don't insert insinuations where there are none.

Thanks for all the Points of View. I will let this thread die now.

Hookem

You do realize that if we are ever hanging out at a race and someone takes a swing at you that I am not going to stick up for you don't you? I will help you up and laugh at you. Such a smart ass. I love it.

I would never turn my nose up at someone's 10 Hour Ironman, but I just don't find any of the splits or paces impressive.

yeah, you're right - Matt Carpenter won the Leadville 100 in 15:42:59, breaking the previous record. That 9:25 pace just doesn't impress me. Hell, anybody could do that. Give me a break.

my 9yo son swam a 1:12 100m last year, so you're 1:24 sucks; a 60min 40k wouldn't place you near the top of a local TT race, again that sucks; I'm a broke-down working stiff who can break 37 mins in a 10K, again that sucks. come on, give me some times that are impressive.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

I agree fully with everything you said. Do you think it will take you more or less training to break 2 than it did to break 10?

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts

Hookem, I don't think this was directed at you. At least I thought of it as more of a "general" statement.

p.s. if the longhorns and buckeyes had a rematch, I think we would win this time. :-p

Good luck in pasadena!!

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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

Your mistake is using the Florida course as the standard (unless MIM is the easiest course in the Oly circuit). Compare the results of IMWI and the numbers are equal at 17.

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kangaroo -- please do not read or respond to any of my posts