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Aerobic effort days: why are they so important?
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During the team's weekly 2hr, aerobic (8-10 bpm below LT) ride we had the debate of, "What's the point of this kind of workout? If we want to go fast why aren't we going 'hard'? This workout is pointless." I couldn't produce a specific reason for this kind of workout, the best I could do was make analogy- for example, "to make a building taller one needs to widen its base first to produce stability; the same is true for gaining speed."

Can someone articulate a more specific, physiological reasoning?
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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answer with aerobic adaptations, increased lactate turnpoint (SAC thats for you). Going hard all the time does not actually lead to getting faster all the time.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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As mentioned, there are some physiological adaptions from this training. The main reason to do really easy days is to maintain fitness, while resting the body for the hard days that result in the most significant adaptations.

*********************
"When I first had the opportunity to compete in triathlon, it was the chicks and their skimpy race clothing that drew me in. Everyone was so welcoming and the lifestyle so obviously narcissistic. I fed off of that vain energy. To me it is what the sport is all about."
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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I'd also argue that 8-10 below LT may not constitute and easy day per say.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 11, 05 17:02
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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I remember in my cycling days, I was riding with some European cyclist and we started talking about the difference in training between them and N. Americans. His comment was "the problem with you guys is on your easy days you go too hard and on your hard days you go too easy". That about sums up what you are doing. Your training in the "grey" zone. Either go easy or go hard.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [polarbear] [ In reply to ]
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You mean this grey zone?
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=3232
Also known as the "sweet spot"
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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Deos not apply exactly apply here. There is a diffrence between early season and mid/late season fitness building/increasing. I believe astrotri was talking about building early season form, where laying an aerobic foundation is more important for long term success than doing lots of LT and Vo2 intervals in every ride.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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Threshold power is defined as power output at LT. What he is talking about and what I call "grey zone" is working somewhere below LT and above AeT. You either work at AeT for endurance training or step it up to LT or harder (sprints). See attached write-up on the definition of threshold power and you will see what I mean. By the way, I liked your website showing the work zones.

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/threshold.html
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [polarbear] [ In reply to ]
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"By the way, I liked your website showing the work zones."

Huh? I have no web site.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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The term "sweet spot" was coined for this type of training after the main winter base period and so was first used in this article about rebuilding in the summer months. The author explicitly discusses how this concept grew out of winter base building and that the same principals apply. The point is that what polarbear refers to as the grey zone and says should be avoided is believed by many to be the best zone for training to improve lactate threshold and functional threshold power.

I'm surprised by your comment about LT and VO2 intervals, as the author makes clear sweet spot training does not include VO2 intervals, and though it may include long LT intervals, those intervals are not a necessary component of this type of training.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [polarbear] [ In reply to ]
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If you're familiar with the articles at cyclingpeakssoftware.com. You should also be aware of the tables here:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/levels.html
In it you'll see that tempo training (75-90% threshold power, 84-94% threshold heart rate), which is what I believe is your grey zone, produces the same adaptations as LT training (90-105% threshold power, 95-105% HR). The difference being the degree of the adaptation differs between the zones (generally slightly lower for tempo). However, most people can spend more time in tempo training than LT so the total adaptation can be higher for a max volume tempo regime than a max volume LT one.

I'm not saying what the proper training distribution for anyone should be. All I'm saying is that for many people training at levels somewhat below LT can be very beneficial and that a blanket admonishment to avoid this level is probably not correct.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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They did not specifically mention Vo2 work. But they mentioned using races and training rides to achieve the sweet spot training. I have yet to be in a bike race or fast group ride where I did not get into that zone. Hence the mention.

Also it appears that astrotri is developing his winter base right now, so sweet spot does probably not apply currently

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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From your website, "sweet spot" is defined as:

The underlying principle of sweet spot training is a balanced amount of intensity and volume that produces a maximal increase in an athlete’s functional threshold power (FTP). In the figure below, the “sweet spot” occurs between a high level/zone 2 and level/zone 4. It is within these ranges that you will build your base the most and simultaneously increase your power at threshold. More bang for your buck, and thus the nickname, “sweet spot”.

Functional threshold power is power at LT. Just about all info I have read on threshold power is best developed at or just below LT. From the info above, the charts indicate threshold power can be increased by training at quite a range BELOW LT and up to LT. It seems there are differences in the best level to train at to improve power at LT.

My comment on LT or higher was to indicate that when you work hard , you need to work hard and when you work easy, it should be easy. The "grey zone" is in between easy (AeT) and hard (LT & above)

Definition of "sweet spot" is the whole area in between AeT and LT and that is the difference. I start at LT where as sweet spot starts just above AeT.

I think the difference stems from the author of "sweet spot" is trying to increase base at the same time he's trying to increase threshold power. I think the two take two different training strategies.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [polarbear] [ In reply to ]
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"From your website, "sweet spot" is defined as: ..."

I've said it before, I'll say it again, I have no website. This is not my work and I don't want to give anyone the impression that it is. People have worked hard on this and they deserve to be recognized for what they did.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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What I meant by "your website" was the website you referenced. I know it's not your work and what I'm saying is not my work.

Will you agree that there are differences in training philosophies and any one article is not the last word on how to train. I'm sure any riding you do will increase your aerobic base and to some extent your threshold power. It's just a matter of determining the most efficient way to do it.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [polarbear] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to remind you all that there isn't any scientific evidence in support of either a "sweet spot" or a "grey zone".

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]answer with aerobic adaptations, increased lactate turnpoint (SAC thats for you). Going hard all the time does not actually lead to getting faster all the time.[/reply]
--
man, you've been all over the lactate turnpoint lately. what happened - did you get a lactate analyzer or what? :-)


Josef
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blog
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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That's why you have differences in training philosophies.

If you put 5 people on the same training plan, you will probably get 5 different results and at the same time if you put 5 people on individualized training plans , you will probably get one result.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I would like to remind you all that there isn't any scientific evidence in support of either a "sweet spot" or a "grey zone".
No, but if turn to running and look at some of the most well respected coaches/authors, most speak at length about avoiding "no man's land" as Daniels and Lydiard put it. Considering the success of their athletes, I'll be believing them, "scientific evidence" or not.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [VM] [ In reply to ]
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I am aware of that. They also advocate using that grey zone for marathon training. I wonder why? ;-)

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am aware of that. They also advocate using that grey zone for marathon training. I wonder why? ;-)
Only very sparingly, as races approach. Aren't you one of those "specificity guys"?
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [VM] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know... who's asking? ;-)

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [astrotri] [ In reply to ]
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Here's something I posted over on Gordoworld that discusses a similar issue:

As regards the easy,steady,tempo,hard,very hard progression. I think there's a lot of truth in that, however, IMO one of the reasons tempo nukes novices and causes so many recovery problems is that they are told to do it just ABOVE FT/LT. In RW parlance, tempo = 10M-10K pace, and the same seems to be the case in many traditional single-sport coach's minds. What I'd propose would be better termed FAST-STEADY (a term I heard from UK TT champ Michael Hutchinson and Brighton Uni-based physiologist Jamie Pringle). This pace is significantly easier than Tempo and with the right training, as I say, you can lay down a lot of that in a week (particularly on the bike) without being too nuked (See * below).

TG76: I sort of agree with what you're saying. Certainly as you work harder you have to recover more, and certainly at super-LT1/AeT the increase in glycogen use has a role to play. However I'm wary of such a blanket statement as 'above AeT...' because the exact levels of glycogen used will be dependent on many factors (Cadence, individual's Muscle-fibre distribution, and possibly also things like hydration and blood sugar levels).

As regards FTII fiber recruitment, again, I think you're oversimplifying a bit. FTII can be 'forced' into play early by a low cadence, which is basically what Big Gear work does, and a lot of IM triathletes do a lot of Big Gear work (some do nothing else - we certainly tend to have much lower cadences than pure roadies).

Finally, (*) Although our goal for IM is to be able to produce the best possible performance at Aet, I actually think that training just sub-FT/LT is the best way to produce this. This goes back to real-world issues like time constraints and the 'bang for buck' thing in my post above. The problem with Aet is that I think it often serves more to make you knackered than it does to really boost your fitness as fully as it might. (I'd be willing to bet that 4hrs of Aet would be more knackering and have less effect on your fitness than 4hrs slow pace but with 4x20 mins of Fast-Steady inserted into the ride.)

I don't know to what extent you could take a novice and build their training this way from scratch - I've never coached a REAL novice athlete at all (they've all had background fitness that needs to be considered). What I am satisfied with can be summarised thus:

1) After an end of season break, it is possible to build a Base training programme by moving fairly quickly from, say, one cycle of Progressive volume increase at slow paces to a series of cycles of progressive increases, not of volume but of proportion of Fast-Steady work.
2) This training is more time efficient than JRA or AeT in terms of training effect.
3) This training is not more expensive in recovery terms than slow OR AeT when related to training effect by volume, and so it seems probable that relative IM novices SHOULD be able to train this way without breaking down unnaturally quickly.
4) Fast-Steady (or sub-FT/LT or Max Aerobic) pace has the added benefit of enabling you to race better at faster paces, too (Important because I rarely see IM athletes who wouldn't ALSO like to race well over shorter distances).

Take a triathlete called Bob. Bob is a good runner. His Endurance/slow pace is 8-min/mile. His Aet pace is 7-min/mile and his Sub-LT/FT pace is 6-min per mile. He's going for a 10 mile run.

He can run 80 mins, 70 at AeT or 60 at Sub-LT/FT.
If he does AeT, he has 10 more minutes of recovery available to him in life.
If he does Sub-LT/FT, he has 20 more minutes of recovery available to him in life.

Obviously the running example is compromised by impact stress, but you get the idea. I'd imagine that, even factoring in artificial extra recovery minutes for the harder efforts we'd find that, UP TO FT/LT, the actual recovery cost linked to time would make the FS run the most effective method of training.

Of course it's not quite this simple. I've just also had this thought as a further refinement:
The training effect and increased recovery cost might be factored in as follows (the higher the score the more worthwhile the session):
The 80min run is worth a training effect of +1 because it increases repeatable endurance/efficiency. So a +1 total
The 70min AeT run is worth a training effect of +1 because it increases repeatable endurance/efficiency, and a second +1 because it involves a higher pace, leads to better glycogen use/storage, switches on the Lactic energy system. So a +2 total.
The 60min sub-FT/LT run is worth a training effect of +1 because it increases repeatable endurance/efficiency, and a second +1 because it involves a higher pace, leads to better glycogen use/storage, switches on the Lactic energy system, and a third +1 for coming close to the maximum level of aerobic training, increased training of lactic clearance systems. So a +3 total.

However there's also an effort cost to factor in:
The effort cost of the 80 is 0. it is the base line.
The effort cost of the 70 is -1. it is the next step up.
The effort cost of the 80 is -2. it is a step up again.
(FWIW, I'd imagine the effort cost of the next step, crossing LT/FT, would be a -4 or -5 because you're taking the system into a new, and more stressful situation of lactic imbalance. Why isn't the effort cost of the 80 -1? Because the scale has to start with an acceptable cost as O, not a no cost. Desirable training effect means doing something must happen, so the lowest point on the scale must be a training action.)

Finally we add in the time-efficiency cost and additional rest/recover time factor:
The time-efficiency score of the 80 is 0. it is the base line.
The time-efficiency score of the 70 is +1. It saved us 10 mins of time.
The time-efficiency score of the 60 is +2. It saved us 20 mins of time.

The final 'training value' scores:
80min endurance run = +1
70min AeT run = +2
60min sub-LT/FT run = +3

I realise it's simplified and not based in science, but it helps explain the thought processes that underpin my statements. I'd imagine that, if these hypotheses were given scientifically determined values, that even if a continuous AeT session and an endurance session containing sub-LT/FT sections went herad to head, the sub-LT/FT session would 'win' in the overall value stakes.


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [smartasscoach] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know... who's asking? ;-)
Why is it that you act like you are the one that discovered the Holy Grail? There are lots of coaches out there that freely share advise when asked a specific question. You may be a good coach but do nothing to advance the collective wisdom in our sport. What goes around comes around. It may even help your business in the long run.
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Re: Aerobic effort days: why are they so important? [Andy G] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I don't know... who's asking? ;-)
There are lots of coaches out there that freely share advise when asked a specific question.
Smartasscoach is one of these.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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