hold that thought. Need to grab some popcorn while we wait for ST swim gurus to chime in

I posted that a week or so ago, I think on the fish thread? Basically, his conclusions are "ahem" questionable....

ETA - link to previous discussion on this.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6881628#p6881628

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Except that's not what the article says. It clearly states that the kick is important and has function as part of the swim stroke. It defines how to work on your kick to effectively benefit your stroke. It's asking people to change their perspective on how the kick is implemented. It does not say anything about not kicking.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Would i (not a fish) be correct in interpreting this as advocating a two beat kick for front crawl?

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I don't think the article advocates any particular style of kick.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I was basing that assumption off the bit that states it should be used as a counter-balance for arm movements and that extraneous kicking is unnecessary (thus, one kick for each arm stroke). But then again, from reading responses so far, seems I shouldn't take this article and run with it...

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Read the comments in the swimswam article too. Gold Medal Mel (Mel Stewart) and Gary Hall Sr both chimed in, I think they might know what they are talking about..

The author makes a bunch of assertions, but nothing to back those up. In the meantime, elite level swimmers swim faster with a kick than they can pull with a buoy all the time. Not everyone, but certainly a huge percentage.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Haha, thanks. I didn't need to go past this one:

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

That's how I read it as well.

I've never understood how some people can swim faster with a pull buoy. More drag and less propulsion. I am definitely slower, especially if I use bands or an ankle type pull buoy so I can't cheap and still kick some.

Here's the problem (as I see it)

Most adult onset swimmers have never developed the amount of muscle in their shoulders that a club/university swimmer has. And they need the kick to stay high enough to breath. Because most onset swimmers also breath badly. And they have lousy body position in the water. So to prove one thing right or wrong you have to look at each individual.

I have argued against kicking forever, because, with a wetsuit on (or simsuit) I have no issue with breathing and as a club swimming breastroke/butterfly/IM swimmer (eons ago) I still have the muscle and body position. Plus as I have no ankle flexibility, whatsoever, my kick is useless and a waste of energy.

So get some muscle, learn to breath, then have the conversation.

because a pull buoy keeps our legs from sinking and your legs use a lot of oxygen so if you're not using your legs more oxygen for other parts.

And kicking as if your pedaling a bicycle creates a tremendous amount of drag too.

When I teach people how to swim, I give them a pull buoy and tell them to use it ALL THE DAMN TIME.

It's partly that AOS don't have the history in the water for the propulsive muscles: metabolic and motor unit development, etc.

It's partly that for the front crawl stroke (freestyle), AOS haven't built the swim-specific flexibility and ROM of the muscles in the hips, knees, and ankles for a good kick. Yes, the kick isn't as propulsive as one might think, but the ability for a good kick to work as an effective stabilizer has much to do with the ROM of the kick itself. In short, loose ankles and a specific ROM of the hips. To get that whip-like motion, loose ankles are important, and built on years of swimming motion.

So while the ability to swim fast is dependent on training (metabolic and motor unit), it is a holistic history that includes lots of time with a kick, either during whole-stroke swimming or with boards and/or fins.

I took a break from a lifetime of swimming when I was aged 29-39 while running marathons. During that time, my ankles tightened up considerably to the ROM used in running. When I went back to swimming, my kick was garbage. When I've made forays back into running (I am in a cycle of that now), my run is an absolute cock-up, as there is limited elasticity in my ankles to facilitate better springiness in my stride.

I hate to say this, but swimming is a seemingly insignificant part of a long tri that it really serves the triathlete better to have a serviceable swim while spending the time training on the bike and run. Work on being comfortable in the water, and not getting out with an HR of 165 sweating your ass off. The range from elite swimmer to MOP or MBOP swimmer in a long swim is maybe 15-20 (7-10 in a 70.3) minutes, and there aren't that many :57/:27minute swimmers that are also FOP at the end of the day. The real spread comes in your bike, and then where you are positioned with what you have left from 32/16k to 42/21k on the run.

Yea I read it as....kick enough to keep your body straight to counter balance your arms. Any more is a waste. So I assume that if you move your arms faster you will have to kick more to counter balance?

I wonder if anyone has ever checked out what happens to their kick doing timed distances, kicking only, with and without a wetsuit on.
I have a feeling that the changed position in the water may have an effect on the kick.
Can't find a video of anyone trying....but I did find this and I want one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMm_K63SHDM

I think a good analogy for kicking in a triathlon swim is swinging your arms when running.

The kick supports your rhythm and aids in very minor propulsion while also keeping your body position correct

Your legs aren't going to get tired from a 2 beat kick in a 3800m swim just like your arms don't get tired from swinging while running for 4 hours

The worst thing you can do would be to intentionally try NOT to kick

Just relax and concentrate on body position, tempo and high elbow catch and you'll be fine

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Strava

Funny, I keep replying to your comments :)

You are correct. The author may be correct, but he didn't do anything to prove his assertions, which is what Stewart and Hall more or less said. His reply to them was just as unsubstantiated as the claims in his article.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

I definitely agree with you on swimming being a small part of a long tri and obviously for most MOP adult onset swimmers with time/life constraints it comes down to where do you focus your training priorities. It's unlikely to be swimming. for long triathlons, my goal in the swim is to come out of the water fresh having now overdone for a gain of a minute or two. For the long triathlons, if I come out MOP and not exhausted for the swim I'm happy. It's not that during training I'm not trying to improve but the primary goal is serviceable (by my standards) swim. sure, If had higher aspirations like being FOP I might focus a more time on my swim trying to make more gains.

Stop by my pool and I'll show you 5-7 seconds per hundred faster with a pull buoy than without. I'm really quite good with it and I can do it both with the bouy that goes at my crotch and the one that floats my ankles.

I'm just that talented.

Simple - bad position in the water. The buoy is compensating for a bad position and weak core muscles.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Not always. I swam with a few guys (mostly distance swimmers) who are faster with a buoy. These were good swimmers, with excellent position and strong core, faster than me, but they were definitely faster with a buoy in practice.

They simply weren’t good kickers.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Maybe, but 5-7 seconds per 100? And that is after removing the affect the legs provide in rotating the body.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Yeah, I’m not talking about DJRed. I like the guy, but I think he’ll be the first to admit that he’s not a good swimmer (I’m pretty sure I’ve seen his stroke).

I’m really just saying that it’s tough to make blanket statements about the causes of anything in swimming.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly