Yes. I'll try to see what I have on that. I know I had a side bar chat on it.

Yeah, I think Dave said that the Di2 vs Mech was about 50grams of drag difference. I'm sure I'll get a response on whether the test bikes had aero road bars, if that didn't then you're looking at another ~50 grams of drag. So if they used round bars, then the s5 is basically equal and the AR is probably right there as well. Damon already said the s5 is really close to the p5.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Which implies that old Allez is actually more aero than a Tarmac?? ;-)

I'm actually not surprised...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Tell me more...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Chris,
Can you explain more about this comparison between the Shiv TT and the new Venge? Is this with same equipment on each, or with TT bars on Shiv and road bars on Venge? Something else? Same wheels?


Just trying to put it in context. For example, with my old S5, the statement was that with equivalent bars, wheels, and position, it was basically the same drag as a P4...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm interested in the shoes and skin suit. I don't like the looks of the frame personally, but I'm not shopping.

My half-a-thought concern is with that front brake. It's nothing like the cantilever straddle wire on a knobbly tire isssue, but I'm not sure I'd want to pick up anything on the tyre that could jam against that wire.

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

Were the S-Works turbo tires revised? The website and the video (I think video) mentioned that this is the fastest tire, but doesn't the turbo cotton roll much faster? Does this just come down to the turbo fitting this wheel better so it is faster in terms of aero?

Anyone have thoughts?

It is hard to read the but front page article tire sidewall seems to note this specific rim and front even.

There is a new front tire in 22mm.

Right...but that's the S-Works Turbo model (220 tpi nylon casing), correct?

The Turbo Cotton has a 320 tpi cotton casing and comes in 24 and 26mm versions...and doesn't come in a black sidewall version either. From previous testing, the 24mm S-Works Turbo wasn't as low of Crr as the 24mm Turbo cotton, so I one wouldn't expect the 22mm version of the S-Works Turbo to roll faster than either (in fact, if all else is equal, the Crr on the 22 should be higher than the 24.)

I'm a bit confused on what exactly was tested/modeled as well...(IMHO, using the "Turbo" name in everything doesn't help)...especially since the Turbo Cotton is mentioned, yet in all pics of the bike I've seen (and the video) I've yet to see it with tires that have tan sidewalls (Turbo Cotton).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

My guess is the latex side walls on the Turbo Cotton don't look as good on an all black bike. Given the intended audience for the rollout, the regular Turbos were chosen for the photo shoot.

Haven't you heard? Gumwalls are the new "pro look" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

it is hard to make out but the tire on the front page article seems to say 24 along with front and mentions this specific wheel by model.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...argest_roval_620.jpg

"Tell me more..."

for a long time we've had the opportunity to mold the whole road bar. just put a boss in it, screw the hood right onto a boss. no more sliding it up the hooks. then you could place the hood exactly where it needs to be, make the entire bar ergonomic, including the hooks. if you're going to make a whole, new paradigm-changing bar, in my mind that's the first thing you do.

i'm not smart enough to tell these guys what to do aerodynamically, they have it wired, i don't. but this is, to me, the big ergonomic thing hanging out there, and i don't know why companies haven't gone to this years ago. i promise you this is what it's going to be 5 years from now. it could've been done 5 years ago. it should be commonplace already.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Right the use of turbo everywhere makes it difficult, along with just throwing S-works in front of anything they deem fast.

On the current you can go buy stuff right now specialized site it specifically mentions a Turbo Cotton with no use of S-works anywhere and a gumwall. The S-works Turbo is black like you note. The video (I think) and the website for certain pertaining to this 5 minutes saved specifically states the S-Works Turbo. I did not see Cotton there myself unless I missed it and the front page article makes no mention of it being a "cotton" only S-works turbo.

I was a few days way from finally sucking it up and ordering those terribly ugly turbo cottons to try, but seeing as how my bike is so black it makes the new promo venge look like a box of fruitloops, if there are black wall tires that roll like the turbo cottons on the way I'll wait.

The graph is in CdA and and our quoted metrics are in sec/40km because, as you know, watts is highly dependent on average speed. So I guess the answer to your question is yes, for some speed ;-).

We've tested literally every competitor frame out there that we could get our hands on - including the Canyon Aeroroad. It's no secret that the S5, AR, and Propel are all in the mix (as I mentioned earlier, typically all within a 10 sec/40km spread). The Pinarello F8 and Canyon Aeroroad both also slot into that same grouping.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

I'll have to double check the exact fit coordinates that we used, but all of the current aero frames are very close in terms of stack and reach (including the updated S5). We pretty much defaulted to a ~8-10mm dust cap + 110mm 6 deg slammed as a general baseline and adjusted a few mm as necessary to get an exact match on each frame. I believe the only frame to use any actual spacers was the Canyon Aeroroad since it includes a 1pc bar/stem that was a touch too low. (by the way, we tested the S5 with the new bar that is now included with the updated frame).

As for DA9000 vs. 9070, it's what we had multiple groupsets of to be able to build up several frames at a time for testing. Yes, results will vary somewhat depending on how cables are routed on other frames. We unfortunately didn't have the bandwidth to go back and retest everything with all different combinations of groupsets.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

All bikes were tested with integrated components as spec'd. So the new S5 was tested with the new Cervelo aerobar. Ditto for the Propel and Canyon Aeroroad (and of course the Venge ViAS).

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

My notes have the turbo and not the turbo cotton.

That I agree with 100%... This launch has been pretty impressive. Very comprehensive, well done videos, a nicely tied in teaser video linking back to the whole 5 minutes theme, etc. extremely well done.

I'm also very impressed with the attention paid to the details and the willingness to look at everything fresh. In an industry where designs are often constrained by the parameters of the component companies, that is not always easy (and rarely cheap!) to do.

@ Chris - I get how and why you are doing the comparisons. I guess the question I have for you is whether the line from the previously linked article (vs. similar previous items) was a misunderstanding in the author's part, or is that how you guys are positioning it? To me, comparing it to the previous TdF winning gear is kinda apples & oranges. 1) we know Nibali rode the Evade helmet for at least some of the Tour. 2) I doubt anyone is gonna wear a skinsuit in the mountains and 3) I'm guessing both Nibali and Contador will be on Tarmacs in the mountains.

But great job in the bike design and launch!

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

However, don't people vary the hood position on the bar somewhat? You've just removed that adjustment possibility.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hey Tom, yea that's an interesting graph that happened almost by accident. We were validating one of the last Venge ViAS prototypes and happened to have my Shiv TT in the tunnel for another test. So we decided to do a back to back test to see how they would stack up. Both bikes were basically built to my personal fit coordinates, but 1 road setup and 1 TT setup. The Shiv TT had the TT cockpit, 404FC front and Super9 disc rear. The Venge ViAS had CLX64 wheels and otherwise a standard road setup. So not really a good apples-to-apples test but we thought the graph was a nice way to put in context the jump in aero performance from the original Venge.

To be honest, if we were to put an integrated aerobar and disc rear wheel on the Venge ViAS, it would likely test even faster...but that's discussion's for another day ;-)....

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

...and a rider ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Sorry about the tire confusion. The tires spec'd on the Venge ViAS are the standard SW Turbo casing (not the cotton). The tires are labeled as 22 on the front (new casing) and 24 rear (existing casing) - *however* on the CLX64 wheels with a significantly wider internal width, the installed sizes are ~24mm front and 26mm rear. This was our target in the design phase of the wheel and tire, but since certification testing happens on a 17C (IIRC?) internal width, we had to label the front a 22.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Sure, depending on the starting position and aero bar position. It is also dealing with the biggest component of drag - rider position.

And as I noted, it is more believable now that we know specifically what they are claiming against....I just think it is a bit of apples and oranges.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Hats off to Specialized for getting their engineer to be front and center on the data discussion here. It certainly helps the transparency issue.