Where do the derailleur cables go? I do not see a rear derailleur cable, wireless Di2? Would be weird for it to have pedals but not cabled. I am guessing this is not real.

I see brake cables and a Di2 junction box.

So do I, but no other cables.

Zoom in on the image and the RD wire is visible. Just run very tight/cleanly.

Why is there an upside down lavalamp posing as a seatpost?

It's reasonable to think, in 2016, there won't be any derailleur cables. Shimano and Campy both have electronic. And SRAM, of course, has the not-yet-released wireless groupset.

Given that, it makes a lot of sense to make a "no-cable" frame, especially for something that's really a high-end, aero race bike.

I have no idea if this is real. But it would not surprise me in the least.

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Good catch, where do you think they enter the frame?

Where did you find this?

It looks odd to say the least. It seems like they just deepened the downtube, bolted a new seatpost and the stem fairing on and called it a day.

I'd be surprised if the next Venge didn't have integrated brakes... nevertheless, this looks pretty cool to me...

on the outside there doesn't appear to be too many changes (if this is legit)... i'm kinda surprised since (i think) this would be the first revision since their windtunnel was opened.

Also, non-aero handle bar on the S-works version? I am suspicious.

this is just the current Venge with a spazzed out seatpost and a bento box no?

Nope, that's not it.
-SD

have you seen one dave?
this one looks like a transformer.

I would suspect this is just one of many fantasy prototypes they have floating around. That seatpost would be tough to market aesthetically, likewise with the fairing behind the stem.

Well that's just plain fucking ugly.

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I learned a long time ago that the only pertinent information you offer is found within the last sentence.

i love the colors!!

its the current Venge, so doubt it's even that

The seat post wouldn't be UCI legal and the clamping mechanism just looks odd. I expect something less clunky on the next generation.

What I find interesting is the flat section that forms the base of the bento box. The Venge top tube curves a lot at the junction between the top and head tubes and I think the notch for to dust cap is totally different without the funky aero dust cap.

This is just one guys Venge (who just happens to be the lead designer for Specialized):
http://velonews.competitor.com/...er-tech-day-2_324409

http://www.specialized.com/us/en/5minutes/

is there anything else to that link?

Not letting much slip in that preview!

I live in the bay area and I saw what I think was Chris D'Aluisio riding an unmarked black bike a few weeks ago in Santa Cruz. I was in a car on a backroad, and saw him stop at a stop sign, before coming past my car. I am thinking this could have been the venge but I guess we will find out soon. I didn't get a great look at it, all I noticed was that the downtube had an interesting or weird cutout in it, almost like a Wilier cento crono. Can't wait to see what the next gen looks like.

looks like rear brakes are mounted below BB... too fuzzy to make out them being in the traditional location on the seat stays. which, speaking of seat stays, clearly mounted further down on the seat tube. junction between seat tube and top tube looks like BMC TMR01. Would almost say that maybe it was that bike, but the chainstays look to be more rounded than the BMC. And what's going on with the front brake? is it mounted behind the fork?

very interesting pic for sure.

what is that just below the seat stays, wondering if the brake is maybe situated there

Cavendish will ride the Tour of Switzerland this weekend. I would expect to see him on a 2016, if it exists. I don't think too many people would be keen to roll into the Tour on a bike they haven't raced yet. We might know more by Monday. :-)

So you wouldn't like to see a side-on shot now, then? ;)

As a brand, Culprit is constantly checking ourselves from being sued by the Big S or others as we are developing/planning new products. So I regularly check the big brands for patents. Upon a recent search, these 2 patents came up which I think are the bike in question.

Notice the brakes, they are likely hydraulic rim brakes behind the fork and off the stays/ seat tube.

https://www.google.com.tw/patents/US20140265222


Frame shape looks like their new aero road patents


https://www.google.com.tw/patents/US20140265228


This is only speculation, but will be fun to see what comes pre Tour de France.


Let me know if I am right or wrong of what you speculate things to be.

Looks like the bike I saw D'Aluisio riding with the cutout in the downtube :)

Interesting! Thanks for posting that. I'm curious to see that if they are hydraulic, how well it will be received....I'm sure just like the p5, there will be many for it, and many against.

Seems like they are taking a similar approach to the new madone in regards to the TT/HT junction and routing cables.

winner, winner, chicken dinner.

That is some weird rear brake placement. Can't believe the UCI approved that. Just goes to show that payoffs really do work.

Rear? Hell, look at the front....something really unique going on there. Can't quite make out all the details, but it appears to be highly proprietary.

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Proprietary hydraulic brakes, very interesting! Aesthetically kind of reminds me of the Greek god Mercury's wings.

Are they hydraulic? Those don't look like the Shimano brifters on the roof of that car.

Definitely an interesting concept.

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Hmmmm, integrated brakes that really work. Brakes with good power and modulation, along with easy adjustment to multiple rim widths, would be a true step forward.

The drawings show what looks like a hydraulic brake piston, that's the circle. Looks very much like the pistons on my mountain bike.

But yes, you're right, you would need either brake levers with a master cylinder or they'd need to build a cable to hydraulic converter into the system somewhere which has been pretty kludgy looking when I've seen it done previously.

Looks like they put the reservoir in the steerer tube for the front brake at least. Don't know how they'd get it to the rear brake from there. Probably another reservoir in the downtube.

My big curiosity is the stem and how they're doing the cable routing and fitting.

Why does that sketch look like the roubauix and not the Venge?

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**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Patent sketch.....type of bike is immaterial. It is about the brake design. Could have pictured it on a hybrid if they wanted.

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Thank you, makes perfect sense now.

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But rest assured those brakes are going to pop up on the Roubaix, Tarmac etc too. You don't spend the development costs for something like that for just one modest-selling model.

Unlikely. The brakes on the Transition were re used for the Shiv, but that's hardly a volume line. They'll also be heavy compared to cable brakes making them undesirable on lightweight models.

I much prefer the new Madone.

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree (not on the Madone though). I'm expecting a claim -- and as usual from Specialized it will be part real and part marketing hype -- that putting the front brakes there not only eliminates the drag of a traditional brake caliper there but reduces drag even more than a frame without that front brake.... by filling in part of the gap between fork and downtube. That potential benefit should also be claimable for putting the same front brakes on at least the UCI legal Shiv.

As to using it on lighter models, I doubt there is significant additional weight. The current Venge can come in fairly easily under the UCI limit, and is not at all a heavy bike and its unlikely Specialized is loading it down. That would hurt marketeing.
Its not like current road bike calipers weight zero, so there is an offset there that will probably cover all or nearly all of it. Probably the arms are carbon, for example.
Remember: aeroiseverything#. Many of their other frames are migrating in the aero direction.
It's one thing to gin up an odd little center or side pull spring brake, like, say, the P4 uses for the rear. Its a whole different ball game to come up with a proprietary hydraulic system like this, and they will be looking to spread some of those development costs around, and use this for marketing across several parts of the brand.
just my 2 cents.
Reasonable alternate possibilities include 1) yours, or 2) the thing doesnt work very well for one reason or another and bombs .. and they pull the plug on whatever plans they have for other models using it.
It's odd stuff to be sure. I don't dislike the look of it or the idea. It may turn out to be great. But jury is out until there are proper tests etc.
And I hate to think what happens if one of those front ones break in a way that dangling chunks get sucked up in wheel/fork. Its in a bad spot. Back ones too, but I less mind the idea of rear wheel locking up.

Cervelo is going to be selling alot of S-series bikes based on what I'm seeing here.

I'm willing to be proved wrong, but they will be heavier. Weight weenies don't like that. Many roadies (Tarmac buyers) don't concentrate on aero. Weight is very easy to measure...

There is also a good chance that the UCI restrictions may be revised soon, giving a reason to keep distinct aero / endurance / lightweights in a brand's line up.

I'm sure SBC will have lots of data to back up any claims, but (and I'm a big S fan) I don't think his one is going to sell.

I don't think Cervelo will benefit having seen what Trek have turned out.

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

totally agree. The complicated brakes, etc. of the new Madone and Venge are probably going to lead more people towards the S-series and probably Felt AR

Your logic rests on whether they are significantly heavier... We'll see.
Good points on the UCI thing, partic as it applies to the Tarmac, which was the lightest frame I ever owned. A little too light, it turned out, at least in the seatstay where it collapsed pulling away from a stoplight one day.
You would think UCI'd be willing to get off a half a kilo at this point.... they have been trying to behave a little more logically and that's way overdue. But frame weights are reaching the point where, as with aerodynamics and frames, there's not a lot of fat left to get out, and much of the remaining weight (as with drag) is in the components.
Liberal use of high mod fibers can only do so much. It's one thing to trim 20 percent of the weight of a 1,400 gram carbon structure while leaving in enough wall thickness to have any safety factor at all from impact. Quite another to get even 10 percent out of a 700-gram structure.
Boron maybe.

Out of all the competitors the S5 is still probably the easiest to wrench on. Those impressed by bling and tunnel numbers may not be swayed by it, but there is something to be said for bikes using readily available and reliable parts. More integration = more pain in the ass.

I'll admit that I'm partial to Specialized so I'll admit to any bias that may be coloring my thoughts here right off the bat, but...

The placement of the brakes doesn't seem all that horrible. Compared to the brakes of the BMC TMR01 or the Felt AR, I feel like the rears on the Venge don't look too horrible to adjust. Plus the pat. app. pubs. indicate there's a quick release function. The fronts on the Venge look to be a little more difficult to adjust, but I'll await passing judgment until the bike is released. I'm sure Big S has spent plenty of time optimizing the aero re: brake placement and the shapes of the brakes, but I'd be surprised if it added anything more than a handful of watts saved. I do think the stem and fork/headtube area looks like it'll be somewhat troublesome for adjusting, but who knows. Isn't Felt's Bayonet fork a bitch to work on? Or am I just making that up? That said, I do like the S5 because it looks like it's probably the easiest bike to work on, and well let's face it, they've been leading the charge on aero road for some time.

And let's face it, between all manufacturer's top of the line aero rigs, it'll still probably come down to what best fits you since it'd make no sense to get the "fastest" bike only to have to sit up like a parachute. Not to mention, I'd be happy with any one of the bikes I talked about here, and even the Madone 9. Damn the integration... just have your local mechanic wrench on it. That's their job.

Yes, I can't imagine that ease of working on brakes is ever going to be very high on my list of things that determine what bike I ride. I had a P4 for awhile, and it was certainly one of the worst for that. So, OK, it ate an hour. But then I was done with it.
There are much harder technical challenges out there. Like the cable junction setup in that bike. Or running brake cables in certain aero bars etc.
It's not like these are big deals, like doing something to my car.
The biggest thing by far is that the brakes have to stop the bike well. If I have to tinker, no big deal.

The performance numbers on this bike will be huge compared to the old Venge. There's a couple little details that also can't be seen from these spy shots.
You guys won't have to wait all the way until the tour to see all the details, that's all I can say right now. :beerchug:

Cool. I am ready to be blown away.

Thanks, interesting pics. Looks like they're not hydraulic as previously speculated? Rear brake looks like a MTB "V" brake with the cable routed from the down tube, a barrel adjuster is visible on the cable coming up from the bottom bracket area.

Hard to make sense of how the front brake is cabled, looks like through the stem, down the steerer tube, and than back to the brake.

I must have been blind to have been thinking it was bb mounted rear brake, non-bb, now I am more interested

Well, not hydraulic. This makes more sense as hydro probably would have been a barrier to entry to many. Cable actuated makes much more sense given that all of the FSA sponsored teams (EQS, T-S, and Astana) are supposedly about to be on FSA's new electronic group when it comes out.

Speaking as a Propel owner I will say that these V-style brakes are more finicky to keep operating perfectly and are susceptible to problems as the noodles/bends get dirty. Nothing like a traditional caliper for ease of upkeep - but these do certainly look fast (except for rear cable hanging out).

Rear brake is quite crafty.... I have zero clue how the front brake is cabled.

They are both front and back glorified cable-actuated v-brake type calipers. They are interesting (although these calipers are notoriously hard to keep adjusted/centered), but the real question comes up: what is the big advantage to these designs? Are they superior? Are they worse? Or, do these brakes exist purely as an the artifact of crazy UCsillyI restrictions/rules?

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My speculation-

Front brake is either:
1) similar to the Fuji Norcom Straight where it runs through a port built into the front of the head tube. You can see a small bulge on the frame where the headset dust cap meets the headtube.
2) similar to the new Boardman TT bike where it runs down the steerer center and exits at the bottom.

Either way, it looks like it has a noodle on the drive side (you can clearly see the built in noodle on the non-drive side of the rear brake). You can also see the cable end crimp just above the fork mounted speed sensor, which makes it appear as though the cable enters the brake on the drive side.

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Alex Arman

Strava

It's probably a little bit of everything.

Cable operated will at least not be that much heavier, though they do look a bit chunky. Even if that's mostly CFRP, there's lots of it, and in the frame and fork too.

The rear brake placement is more interesting to me. Last time I saw Anything remotely like that was the Lotus or MCR, but they used standard calipers.

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

I'm highly disappointed the brakes are NOT hydraulic...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I wonder how the aero cockpit works if you need more stack?

other than adding spacers?

I'm still hoping that there is at least an hydraulic option / model in the line.

But....that is going to present it's own challenges. You'd essentially have to partner with SRAM / Shimano / Campag and have the brakes work with their levers....which would then limit component options / appeal.

It is my hope that if there is more development of hydraulic rime brakes, the idea of discs for pure road use will fade away....but I don't honestly see that happening, at this point.

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How about a cable-to-hydraulic converter...or hydraulic-to-hydraulic (a simple piston) for the incompatible fluid? They should just convince SRAM to switch to a mineral oil based fluid and be done with it IMHO ;-)


That's my hope as well...hydraulic rim brakes along with the excellent aero AND braking performance shown by wheels like the new Hed Jet "black" series will hopefully gain some traction (pun intended) ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Never really seen a cable-actuated hydraulic brake that worked well....although my experience with them has been somewhat limited (primarily the old Rock Shox and other MTB discs). Was kinda the "worst of both worlds"...crappy lever feel with poor modulation. Perhaps they have improved over the years....dunno.

Have no idea whether your other solution is a viable alternative or not, so can't really comment.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I was able to try the Magura C hydraulic rim setup on my alu Soloist for a couple months before it was stolen at the end of February. It worked VERY nice...probably mostly because the cable runs were short and I used Nokon cable housings. With the front cover off the master cylinder box, you could see that the hydraulic cylinders were actuated instantly with the lever pull when set up correctly. Great lever feel and braking power.


Me neither...but mostly because it just popped into my head as a possibility :-)

Think of it this way, if you have incompatible fluids you just need a way to transfer the pressure from the lever fluid to the caliper fluid without them mixing. A simple piston in a bore would do the trick. One could even play with the configuration of the piston (different input size to output size) to account for varying pressure/volume requirements between the lever and caliper. Just "thinking out loud"...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Is mounting an SRM speed sensor off the front fork more aero than putting it on the rear chain stay ? In the first two photos above you can clearly see it mounted out there.

Sometimes I wonder if things like this happen all the time in the real word. Engineers spend countless hours ringing out every watt saving , than along comes the avg user who mounts something on the bike and screws it all up. Guy spends $10k to save a few watts , than in 5 min after he gets it, Poof all gone.

pro teams tend to do it that way. i always wonder about it, and the only thing i can come up with is that maybe there are fewer front flats, so less need for adjustment, and also the rider can reach down and make an adjustment if it gets knocked out of alignment during a race.

otherwise....*shrug*.

Going back and looking at the drawings posts previously, it seems that is for an entirely different brake design, and not the brakes pictured.

Whether that other (hydraulic?) design ever sees the light of day.....

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When Giant did the first iteration of the Propel the used carbon arms on the V-brakes to save weight and performance suffered enormously as a result. They ended up switching to titanium arms in the second gen which produced fantastic performance. Sponsored teams ended up having their own alloy arms made which also had excellent performance. If Spesh opted to build the calipers all out of carbon I wonder if they will suffer the same fate. The front brake is clearly intended to be a fairing to fill the fork/ downtube gap - if the UCI throws a fit they say 'hey, it's just a brake, we needed to make it like that for xyz silly reason'. Are my eyes deceiving me or is that some kind of custom extra-long brake pad going on?

Remember, that is a patent drawing and isn't exactly how a potential hydraulic brake would necessary have to look in final production form. It is more the idea. Question of if they bring hydraulic is a good one and only time will tell.

new madone is looking like a much better bet than this,,, even the current venge is looking better

I understand that....but there is nothing unique about the brakes that are on the bike pictured above, certainly nothing that could be patented.

So the patent drawings are for something else....whether a new design of mechanical brakes (a cam system perhaps?) or a hydraulic system is open for interpretation.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

A bit off topic... Those original Giant Propel Adv SL carbon brakes were horrific. I owned this bike for a year and although the bike was awesome the braking was easily the worst braking I have ever experienced. The problem I had at the time was Giant Canada wouldn't even acknowledge the poor braking on those model bikes.

OK, went back through the thread and looked up the patent application from which the drawings were pulled.

the patent is for a hydraulic system....now whether it is ever implemented on a Venge or any other bike is TBD.

https://www.google.com.tw/patents/US20140265222

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I think the application was written to be used more as a defensive disclosure, but I don't know what prior art exists. I'm sure Specialized wouldn't have spent the money if there weren't a couple of novel aspects in the application, and there appears to be, in my view, patentable material in the application.

There are two potential reasons that immediately come to mind.

My (10 year old) Polar S720 speed sensor doesn't work on the chainstay. The aerial was directional, and would only work if it was mounted to something more-or-less vertical (or pointing to the S720?). It would work on the seatstay (slightly more vertical), but then it struggled with the distance. I don't know if current SRM suffers from this, but it might well be stuck in some mechanics mind that speed sensors work better on forks. SRM HR was Suunto, but I'm not sure about the speed sensor, so I can't confirm if it suffered like the Polar.

The second potential reason is that the pro teams regularly have to mount race specific transponders on the chainstays. Maybe they don't want to mess with that area.


That might very well happen. I regularly see triathletes ride 90% of the time on the bullhorns.

For road racing I'm kinda partial to normal brakes in normal locations. Sometimes you have to swap wheels quickly, and on multi-day events it's a benefit if your toolbag is smaller. The brakes also have to work much harder than in a TT. Maybe I should look for an old stock Venge or new S3.

I think you are mis-reading my post(s)......as it pertains to the drawings, yes, there appears to be some patenable ideas (especially as it pertains to the idea of hydraulics).

As far as the actual bike pictured above with the mini v-brake arms, there does not appear to be anything patentable in that application. Hence the reason I went back to look at the actual patent filing and confirmed that the application pertains to a hydraulic system.

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Again, I'm not sure what's out there in terms of mini-v brake designs, etc., but the independent claim doesn't include any hydraulic limitations. Theoretically, the picture of the bike above, namely the proprietary brake design as is without a hydraulic system, could be covered under a patent, if granted.

Actually...reading the independent claim, I can't see how that application will EVER be granted. WAAAY too broad. It describes basically any brake that has pivots on the frame.

That's just my limited knowledge take on it, though...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Not exactly. It says that the "actuator" is closer to the brake pivot axis than the brake pads. On V brakes the actuator (the cable) is always further away, so that's kinda novel. From the pictures though, they're not following this patent. Not sure how this applies to traditional caliper brakes either.

Also this is just an application, it hasn't been granted yet. I bet there will be some changes.

Any guesses on how many watts this new Venge will save over the current Venge?

The more I think about it, they're basically patenting hydraulic rim brakes in general. Because you generally want more pad travel than you can realistically achieve with piston travel, you're always going to want it closer to your brake pivot than your pads. Doesn't matter what style of brake.

The new Venge and Madone are both interesting. Looking at the photos makes me wonder about the following;
1. Both frames look like they only support electronic shifting. Does this mark the beginning of the end of mechanical shifting?
2. The Madone looks like it might have the Domane elastomer seat tube collar. Is Trek going to focus on both aero and comfort with one bike or is this something to get Cancellara to ride/promote the bike?
3. Does anyone know which rider(s) are on the Venge? Cavendish was a big early promoter of the Venge, so I assume a lot of the design choices reflected his input. Given that the first Venge is a Tinkov team bike I am guessing maybe Sagan is providing feedback.

Actually...no. Look at the Magura rim brakes. The actuator is further from the pivot than the brake pad. You gain more leverage at the expense of travel. IIRC, the SRAM HRR brakes are the same ("actuator arm" longer than "brake arm")...so, good point on that...I didn't catch that.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Cancellara still uses mechanical. Even on the new Madone.

Yeah, I suppose you are right. In the description they specifically mention a ratio of piston travel to pad travel which would be difficult to get around but in the claims they only mention distance. Then you can get around it with a wedge design (TriRig/Magura/Shimano AX)

Okay, so as a patent attorney, I should probably start out by saying that my statements do not constitute legal advice and in no way establish a client-attorney relationship with anyone.

With that out of the way, I will say that I have limited knowledge about how the Magura or other hydraulic systems actually work in detail, but it looks the Omega X could be a problem (either to TriRig or to Specialized depending on when the Omega X was released).



I know the text is kind of small, but assuming that's where the wedged arm is applying the force to the pad, it would infringe on the currently-pending independent claim if it ever issued. And if this design was already out there before Specialized's priority date for this application, then Specialized's going to have to amend their claims if they want to get something patented. It's just a matter of how narrow you want to limit yourself if the TriRig system is deemed to be prior art. I think there are a number of different ways though that you could amend the claims with the current specification.

And.... nevermind.... I should have checked PAIR first, but the application was abandoned by Specialized. Didn't look at the Office Action, but I'm assuming the examiner came down hard with a number of references with a 102/103 rejection. I'll try and dig a little deeper to see what was cited against them later on when I have some free time. I'm hoping they at least got a design patent out of this.

anyone else notice how the downtube seems to taper from a knife edge near the head tube down to a wider kamn tail down near the BB junction?

This idea isn't new. I know the original S5 had it and I think other aero frames may have had it before as well. If I can recall correctly from fluid dynamics and FEA classes, this would basically delay separation of the boundary layer so as to mimic the lower portion of the downtube (i.e., near the BB) to have a greater width than the downtube portion near the headtube/fork. Also, when you install/carry a bottle, you're shielding the bottle better and providing greater laminar flow (I think)....

I think first bike to use that design is actually the Litespeed C1. I don't know if they even did any CDF work on that design or specific wind tunnel work in the development (they did test the final design though). It just seems logical to not taper the tube to a point if you are going to put a bottle there.

Exactly. Kind of wish there was a way to rework the aluminum on my old P3 to flatten it out since I rarely put a bottle on my downtube because of the complete airfoil shape. Although I guess all hydration solutions should go BTA and under saddle before going to downtube bosses.

some more shots http://www.bikeradar.com/...otype-spotted-44547/

noticed the bike rader post this morning, those brakes look like a nightmare.....and to be honest the madone and even the current venge look more visually appealing. I dont know, this current model looks like it is 'trying' too much.

sounds like solid judgment based on data and facts :)

Better shots than those posted earlier. Think it's interesting that the pivot point on the front brake is reversed from the rear. The rear brake can be considered comparable to a faired "V" brake. The front brake rotates the pivot orientation so it's at right angles to the fork instead of parallel to it. Clearly trying to use the brakes to add some chord depth.

Also novel is the dropped center on the handlebars, presumably to reduce a bit of frontal area in the stem region. Will be interesting to see how they handled the cable routing in the front, both in the stem area and the steerer tube. The stem appears to have a conventional handlebar clamp but clearly all cables are routed completely internally.

Have never had a bike with a "V" brake so can't speak to the centering problems, but hopefully Spesh has found a way around this issue.

I am not sure about the dropped center on the bars as it seems to just create more surface area. That being said, I am sure Spec has done their homework and I would guess that they will say it save 3-4 watts over standard bars and tested as the most aero drop bars they have tested.

its how i roll :D

If you think about the frontal area, the dropped handlebar doesn't really make sense. If it was just the stem, then it would reduce frontal area by overlapping stem frontal area with head tube. Once you add the handlebar, you are increasing frontal area in the handlebar. Whether it completely offsets the reduced frontal area of the stem, I don't know, but it at least offsets some of the difference.

Interested to see the data, but it seems a bit goofy. An aero drop bar (something like the S5 or Canyon) seems like a more elegant solution.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but this bike gives the Shiv Tri a run for its money in the "ugliest race bike on the market". The front end of the bike make its look like its suffering a from a serious disease.

Anyone want to take a wag?

We know that the bars and stem alone will account for 3-4 watts as they will have to complete with the claims that Cervelo made with their new bars.

I would guess 5-6 watts.

My head tech looked at the bike radar pics this morning and said it appears the brakes are mechanical and not hydraulic. So maybe the patent drawings are for a work still in progress.

---

Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

You guys are assuming that every Venge is going to come with these bars. It may well be that Cav opted for these bars to get the fit he desires, not that it is the standard spec.

We don't really know at this time......

But somebody needs to tell Cav not to wrap the bars all the way over the tops....that looks like a Cat V job.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I think I got it, the dropped bars are not for reducing frontal area. They are for allowing clip on aero bars to be positioned very low. If you position a handle bar normally and then put on clip-ons, they clip-ons will be mounted too high for a very low aero position. With these bars you can have the optimum normal handle bar position and have nice low position when on clip-ons.

no

Any guesses on how many watts this new Venge will save over the current Venge?

At what speed and air density?

My thought when I first saw it was "this thing is aero as hell". They really pulled out all the stops. Sure it looks a little funky, but aero is beautiful, baby. And if Cav uses it in the TdF then it is a safe bet that it rides and is is torsionally stiff enough for us.

The trend towards "road aero" is one I can embrace. It isn't just for TTs.

Many of the design elements are clearly more advanced than what the Shiv TT is using, which makes me wonder when that bike is getting updated.

Yes. I have.

Making lots of assumptions it seems a claim of ~600g drag savings at 50kph over a standard frame appears to be materializing or about ~300g over the current Venge.
Roughly translated from a standard road bike
30kph saves 360s over 40km for -600 g of drag
40kph saves 300s over 40km for -600 g of drag
50kph saves 240s over 40km for -600 g of drag

Roughly translated from a typical aero road frame (current Venge)
30kph saves 180s over 40km for -300 g of drag
40kph saves 150s over 40km for -300 g of drag
50kph saves 120s over 40km for -300 g of drag

Dr. AC ROT:
50g @ 50kph = 5s/10km = 5w = .005 m2 CdA = .0005 Crr

I'm guessing their claim will boast an average of 30 watts saved over the current aero offer and up to 50 watts in w.c.s situations.
I can't wait for the information embargo to get lifted and eventually get a chance to get one of these.

-SD

jeez what a gorgeous bike. I was on the fence btw an felt AR and a BMC TMR01, now I think I'm going to wait

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

No way they spec those funky bars over the aerofly they have now. This has to be just for cav to get his fit.

Looks like they turned these into drop bars:

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

I like the look but I am not sure about a few details.

As for the bars drop I am assuming that this is in place of spacers under the stem and/or a stem with some rise to it. It makes sense in some ways but not sure if it has a net decrease on drag as then there are two parts breaking the wind instead of a single part.

As for the front brakes you can already see that the front pivot causes uneven wear on the pads and may not completely use the entire pad as the front may barely have any pressure applied. I would also be worried about wear in a long wet ride as the pads may wear to the holder very quickly. I am not sure why they went away from a bottom pivot as they did in the rear.

I am also surprised that they did not go wider on the downtube to break the wind for bottles. I would like to see this extended for large bottles as most of us use in the real world where we have to carry our own water for the entire ride.

I can somewhat see that with the front brakes (the aero part). But the data will be key.

But it is hard for me to see how the rear brake is any more aero than alternatives.

You?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

The current Venge saves 1 min per 40k over a tarmac by there own testing. (Source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p8SdRRe1fo) Chopping 4 more minutes off of that would be impressive to say the least. Even if they didn't include an Aero Fly bar (being genourous 30 sec) and if you throw in the 34 secs from wheels (same test) you still have to come up with 2 min from the frame alone. That is quite the tall order.

From what picture did you draw all of these conclusions?

The one picture from Bike Radar, where the fork is turned slightly, just looks like they toe-in the pads a bit.

from the pic on velonews, i think it is the same pick of the wheel from behind turned. Look on a big monitor and it is clear that the pad is already thinner on the rear than on the front. Also think about a lever and physics. Even a bottom pivot wears uneven, which is why they had a parrallel pivot on the high end V-brakes in the late 90s. The pivot is way in front of the rear of the pad so that is making this effect even worse and where it would affect the entire pad on a bottom pivot it affects the rear of this front pivot much greater than the front of the pad.

I

I have a 24" monitor, and I don't think it's clear. Perfect angles and shading in the background can make a lot of difference. It's just too much of a stretch for me to draw those conclusions.

Is that where that "5 minutes" website came from? ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

simulate on a piece of paper

Put a line on the paper as the rim.

then place a pivot about 17 mm away from that rim and place a small arm cut out of cardboard about 5cm long with a simulated brake pad of about 1cm off that arm at the very back of the arm and see what happens when you pivot it. Also since the cable is at the back of that any normal flex in the system which may have corrected this, if the cable was pulling on the front of the arms instead, is making this effect worse.

They can correct a little by placing the pivot as close to the rim as possible but it would not eliminate.

you have too much free time

As aero as a TT bike?
http://www.bikeradar.com/...-aero-is-aero-19273/

I think it is possible that you can skew the protocol to suit the outcome desired for a given test.
Selecting a data point instead of publishing all data is not an uncommon method of promotion in this and other industries.

I'm guessing of course. I'm eager to see it all play out.

-SD

If you take out the aero helmet and the drops -> aero bars that test shows ~ 20 watts different, not the 60 required for 5min.


I could not agree more, and have horror stories of my own that involve 'creative' tests to get the numbers your boss wants in a wind tunnel.

I'm most impressed by your desire to see/hear more. I think that speaks volumes both about you (in a very positive way) and what Specialized has done here. I just hope the marketing people don't muck it up with over-reaching factitious claims, and let the 'honest' numbers and the hard work that obviously went into sweating the details speak for themselves.

I'm an admitted aero nerd and trim my shoe straps, remove my valve extenders, and align my quick release handles when I'm competing.
If a billion dollar bike brand invests in making aero road bikes and convinces the public at large they are a performance advantage that helps Felt.
Not everyone wants the same shade of red on their bikes. Clearly slower aero road bikes like the Madone, Foil, Propel, S3, and Venge are selling today. If the new Venge is more aerodynamic than the current AR it won't halt the sales of Felt's bike. Some people will still want Shimano brakes. Some people will still want the AR geo. Some people just prefer to zig vs. zag; our shade of red so-to-speak.

I've got a few friends at Specialized that have spent time on this project. As they're my friends, I hope they're successful.

As for the marketing people and claims, that's secondary as we'll have the ability to generate our own "honest" numbers once the bike is available for sale or we can get our hands on one. If the bar has been raised, it'll just mean the next generation AR might take an extra 6 months or year or two to be released.

-SD

The pads are creating some frontal area, but they are trailing the ST bottle and aren't down in the muck under the BB.

It's entirely possible that neither brake is all that great for aero (compared to say Tririgs on an S5) and Specialized is just being different...

You might be right.

But, seeing that image, I just realized one thing that is kinda clever. The movement of the brake caliper arms effectively "toes in" the brake pads. That is pretty cool.

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

The movement of the brake caliper arms effectively "toes in" the brake pads. That is pretty cool

Yikes. The pivot is down at the bottom, correct? The pad is essentially perpendicular to it? That doesn't seem good at all. The pads will wear very unevenly.

I'm hoping for a parallelogram arrangement...think back to the 90's and the original shimano 'v' brakes. If that is the case these very could well brake better than traditional dual pivot calipers. They certainly have enough material to look stiff enough.

Did Cav win today ? Hmmmmm

I think he crashed and Sagan won

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Sagan won on the new venge....your point is moot. I'm willing to bet the killer lead out train had more to do with it than the bike did though.

I ride with a guy on a Propel. I really love the frame (1 1/4 to 1 1/2 steerer with massive/beautiful proprietary stem), but the brakes are inferior to dual pivot brakes. I really wishes they could have put a hole to mount normal brakes on that bike.

For Specialized to go with v style brakes is really disappointing. With the great reviews of the SRAM hydro-rim brake, I was really hoping those early Venge patent diagrams were of an integrated hydraulic solution that could work with the current hydro Shimano, Sram and upcoming Campy road shifter/brakes. With this new Venge sporting v-brakes, I think this bike is going to be a dud...especially if it comes with that swoopy handlebar (if you want the top of the bars higher than the drops, get deeper drops and don't run a negative angled stem). I dub this the P4 of the roadbike world.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Whatever you want. Just list what speed and air density you base your guess off of so that we can give you credit later. ;)

Yes for both front and rear. You can see in the one front brake picture on Cycling News or Velo News that the pad at rest is at a noticeable angle to the rim to account for swinging in from the front instead of from the top, relative to the rim. The pad is not worn as another poster thought, it has to be at an angle to the rim to account for the difference in travel due to the difference in distance from the pivot. The normal force of the pad against the rim is going to have a significant linear distribution over the pad length instead of a fairly small linear distribution over the pad height in a conventional caliper. So wear will be very uneven as you said. No big deal on the Pro Tour, but for the average Joe/Jane? And the normal force at the forward edge of the pad is going to be much higher than at any point in a conventional caliper since it has to average out to a similar force to get equivalent braking. Wonder how that will work on a Chinese carbon rim? I'm also curious how it behaves as it approaches lock-up.

Maybe hydraulic is the end game, but is not yet developed enough to trust in a Grand Tour. Cable-actuated will stick around for the Comp models, and S-Works and SL-whatever eventually get hydraulic?

Brian

---

Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

I think that flat (horizontal) stem is of aero benefit.
An upswept drop bar would likely have much better aero properties than a stack of headset spacers or an upward sloping stem.
Remember that stem has "stuff" going on inside it. Making a flat, rise, and drop top section handlebar might prove more aero than using conventional means to change bar height. It certianly does with TT/Tri bikes.
I wouldn't be surprised if that handlebar bar was split in two pieces at the stem barbore either.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Who won Stage 4 ? Hmmm

Sagan's new Venge doesn't seem to have the wing-shaped bars that were on Cav's bike.

Nope, the normal aerofly's. You can see the pics a few pages back in this thread.

I think SuperDave had the right idea that the stack of the hoods/drops is probably going to be determined by the handlebar instead of spacers underneath the stem. Essentially the road version of 'pedestal'ing'. I'm surprised by this because it adds more SKU's and increases the amount of part the dealers are going to have to stock to get fits right. Maybe they will integrate this into their 'S-Build' system to try and reduce the amount of variability at the shop level. I can understand why it would be more aero....but this is a pretty big compromise.

Well it could be that this is intended to be a high-end S-Works bike similar to the Shiv TT. If it is at that level, then dealers don't need to stock the parts because they won't normally stock the bike. Custom orders only (or really high end stores).

Let's face it, Specialized has never made an effort to sell the TT Shiv. If they had, it would have been offered as a fully built bike in addition to the 5,500$ module. As a result I have seen exactly 1 on a shop floor (BikeWorks in Kona probably 3 years ago). I do, however, see plenty at races.

Truthfully, I have no idea.
I'm just an outside observer like most everyone else contributing to this thread.
I'm sure the guys reading this in Morgan Hill will jump in as soon as they're able.
-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Wait til early next week for more info......

I expect the Tarmac and Roubaix to continue in the direction of disc brakes, not mid-mounted aero rim brakes.
-SD

It's looking better and better in all the pics I see. One little detail I think it's hard to see in most these shots, is that it looks like there is the obvious wheel cutout in the downtube, but there is also a smaller little relief for the brake as well. Must only be a few mm's, but wonder why they did this as opposed to just shortening the brake arm or fairing slightly.

I pray that the handlebar is not the only way to adjust stack. If you want to adjust your stack that means buying totally new bars, swapping the shift and brake levers over, then wrapping the new bars. A formerly 5 minute job now turned into an hour and lots of money.

It looks like they are using TT style aerobar spacers. On Sagan's bike you can see what looks like two spacers under the bars whereas Cav is running no spacers.

Not the only way, but probably the most aerodynamic way.
OTOH, if you know your stack, it remains a 5 minute job.
-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

 

More pictures here:


http://www.businessinsider.com/new-specialized-s-works-venge-vias-for-tour-de-france-revealed-2015-6






.

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Once, I was fast. But I got over it.

Watch the home page ;)

So, any thoughts on how much the bar may or may not have been raised?

All sounds plausible, but the details about how it was tested and compared to what will shed a lot more light than the marketing statements.

Bar can be raised via spacers and the bar to a limited extent.

Sorry, I was referring to the 'Aero' bar. As in how much faster this is, or isn't, this bike is over the current generation of the aero road bikes.

That's atrocious. Obviously a function over form design. But I'd never ride it considering bikes like the new Madone and AR exist. (Madone almost exists)

---

"One Line Robert"

Where'd I put my Bullschitt flag?

Oh, here it is.....

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

My first reaction to the 5 minute time savings was the same, but after a minute or two it occurred to that you can spin this pretty easily.

Start with 5 minutes is 300 seconds and each watt saved is 3-4 seconds. So you only need 75-100 watts. So compare the new Venge with the cotton open tubulars to an Sl3 with Kyseriums and Armadillos (40-50 watts at 20 degree yaw) Specialized hasn't made a skin suit that I know of, so compare a jersey and shorts to a high-end skin suit (30 watts)(I think I have seen a prototype on one of the CalGiant guys and it looks fast. Similar in design to the Body Paint 3). Compare the Prevail to either of the new aero helmets (30+ watts on the right rider because I saved 20 by switching TT helmets).

So ya, if you have never paid ANY attention to aerodynamics and Crr, 100 watts is easy to achieve.

Except the claim, according to the article, is against "previous similar bike and equipment."

my BS flag remains on the field.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Also we need more details on that 5:00. E.g. whether each bit was tested independently at a 40km/h baseline, and they just added them all together. Which would be BS. (Vs. calculating that after the first thing tested you'd now be going 40.2 km/h, so the next bit would have a bit less *time* benefit.

We just tore this apart in the shop, the 5 minute time savings is based on not just the bike but also the new skin suit, shoes, tires and wheels which are also coming available.

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Jim

**Note above poster works for a retailer selling bikes and related gear*

Yeah, we know they are talking about a "system" but still not buying it.

40k in 1 hour = 24.85mph
40k in 55 min = 27.11mph

Flag still on the field.

ETA - just read the VeloNews article on this. The claims are in comparison to riding a Tarmac, a Prevail helmet and a jersey / bib shorts and Conti GP 4000.

I wouldn't exactly call those items "similar" (except the Contis).

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

http://cyclingtips.com.au/...-minutes-over-40kms/

As someone having a hard time finding a suit that fits them as well as they would like..

this is interesting:

"To remedy this, the S-Works Evade GC Skinsuit comes in eleven sizes in order to provide a next-to-custom level of fit."

https://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

50s over the next competitor... hmmm

So if I normally do a 53/54 minute 40k, if I use this Specialized gear I will be faster than Cancellara. Wow! Specialized is amazing.

I had a chance to spend some time with the Spesh folks yesterday and the bike is impressive, but I'm almost as excited about the new Roval wheels (which are claimed to be faster than a 404/disc setup). The brakes 'look' more complicated than they are to work on, lots of nice little touches like the integrated garmin mount and the junction box mount/cover under the BB (you can still access the button to adjust derailleur, or just keep it up front if you like).

Would a simple piston do the trick to connect two hydraulic lines between master and slave cylinder? That slave piston would need to include a bleeder for the "master" hydraulic fluid line coming in. Then wouldn't it need a fluid reservoir for the second fluid? The piston will need a spring to return it to position when at rest, what effect will that extra spring have on the operation of the system?

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

That's pretty good on a road bike.

Bike Radar Article
Wow, really poor choice.

Has anyone seen any pictures of the bar/stem separate? The stem clamp bolts are going directly through the bars. Seems like an interesting design.

We know it's a big claim and along with that a lot of bullshit meters will be going off. Frankly, if that weren't the case we'd be surprised. We're here to be transparent. If something doesn't sound like its adding up, hopefully we can explain.

The 5 min claim is for the larger cycling audience that doesn't fully grasp the impact of aero. The vast majority of riders are still buying into the idea of a lightweight setup, whether that's the bike, wheels, helmet, etc...By comparing against basically last year's TdF winning setup, we wanted to drive home the point that going full in on the aero *system* can net a substantial amount of time saved in the vast majority of riding conditions. The point wasn't to conceal the aero breakdown among the pieces of the system. In fact, where possible, we've given that breakdown - which you'll see in various media write ups as well as on our site.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

I'm thinking along the lines of a cylinder with a round "plate" (sealed on the edge) separating the 2 fluids. Pressure and movement are transferred through the "plate". Just need to be able to bleed the 2 fluid systems.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Don't you need different types of seals for mineral oil vs. DOT fluid? At least that's the argument I've always seen against just swapping fluids.

Your idea would still work, you just need two plates solidly connected with two different seals.

Possibly...like I said earlier, I'm just brainstorming "out loud"...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

http://velonews.competitor.com/...ve-minutes-over-40km

I will say, that irrespective of the truth of the stat's - that bike looks amazing - I don't think i'd ever ride it, just stick it on the wall

If the advantage were 5 seconds, I think many consumers would be sold. The magnitude adds up if the frameset is indeed as slippery as a UCI legal TT bike.
Would you believe aerobars would make 5:00 of difference vs. riding a 40km Merckx style?

-Dave

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

http://lavamagazine.com/...g-gear-2/?cbg_tz=240

Well, Specialized stacks up that five-minute savings (actually, five minutes 32 seconds) over a 40-kilometer ride, with the new Venge ViAS as a big chunk of that time savings. The rest? With tunnel data to back (as tested at 50 kilometers per hour), they break that savings down among a collection of new products as:
• S-Works Venge with the new Roval CLX 64 Wheelset: 120 seconds (2 minutes) (compared to Tarmac SL-4 with alloy wheels)
• S-Works Turbo 24mm Tire: 35 seconds in rolling resistance (compared to Continental GP4000 II 23mm tires)
• S-Works Evade Skinsuit: 96 seconds (compared to a standard bib short and short-sleeved jersey)
• S-Works 6 road shoe: 35 seconds (compared to S-Works 5 road shoe)
• S-Works Evade: 46 seconds (compared to S-Works Prevail & Giro Synthe helmets)

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

It would not be a crazy solution. It could be used to to address different brake levers using different fluids and also address if the brake levers are based on using a different amount of fluid exchange (equivalent to different cable pull ratios).

One issue will still be that there will be some fluid that leaks across the seals, so the fluids will mix (probably more from the fluid from the brake lever side to the brake caliper side since it will probably be higher pressure momentarily compared the fluid on the brake caliper side). This is because dynamic seals either leak or burn up. I would assume they would not want the seals to burn up, since this will be latent failure (the brakes will still work until the seals on the caliper piston are destroyed by the fluid and you have no indication until then).

Second would be additional friction. I do not know if this will be an issue, but leakier seals will have less.

Bleeding could be done on the brake lever side with a bleed valve at the brake lever that appears standard. Then this adapter could have an integrated bleed valve to bleed the run to the caliper, since this adapter is probably going to be higher than the caliper.

Then you have the other concerns like needing to have two different types of fluids around. Also more packaging concerns. And more complicated bleeding.

It is probably the best solution short of having Sram change their fluid. But it is still not great.

"50s/km faster than our closest competitor"

probably the s5.

Show meh teh data!

They forgot to add the shaved legs image and time savings....

I really don't trust anything that specialized reports out of their wind tunnels.

How does it stack up against the previous Venge in terms of aero?

I couldn't find comparisons of the previous Venge vs Tarmac.

Does anyone else find this fascinating........tons of numbers and compares, but no one here can decipher the basic question......how much better is it apples to apples to both its predecessor and comparable bikes? The reason is simple, if they wanted you to know that, they would tell you. Instead, its seconds instead of watts, its with clothing etc, instead of apples to apples, ..........so, if transparency is the goal here, then please be transparent! You know that internally they have these compares, so that the goal in development is clear.

Yeah. Let alone vs any other competitor. But they claim 50s over the closest competitor?

And the Tarmac they compare against probably was tested with standard round drop bars and a standard front brake (in addition to the alloy wheels). Swap each of those for aero versions (Zipp SL70 Aero and Omega X for example) and now the new bike now has a 40 second advantage? Over a tarmac which has tested slower than the R3/5.

Great job on the marketing though, Specialized!

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"One Line Robert"

This is a test that we did comparing Tarmac, Venge ViAS, and a selection of the fastest current aero frames. Same build (DA9000) and wheels (CLX60s rather than CLX64s for clearance on some competitor frames) except where integrated components are required. Sorry about the quality of the chart image. Its original purpose was to illustrate the relative differences among classes. Y-axis is CdA and each division is 0.002 m^2:

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

I can't find it either, but this video states the old Venge is 50 seconds faster than a steel tubed bike over 40k:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE_GKePa3CQ

So the new frame/bar module is 70 seconds faster over 40k?
That would be really nice!

I like the bike and the integration of clothes is pretty cool. The price tag puts it out of my range so let's hope for a less expensive Pro model next year.

I do have to call BS on the wheels. While I am sure they are nice, I bet they don't include watts to spin on the rear versus a disc.

FYI, for interested parties, here's how we wrote it up. i think there are some missed opportunities. but specialized is on the right track. and it's REALLY on the right track as to how its executing these launches.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for the graph. Now let me guess:
1. I am going to guess that the SL5 Tarmac was roughly 12-15 watts of additional drag over the Venge.
2. The bottom competitor is the S5 and one of the other bikes is a Propel. The AR might be in there, but I would think it would sit more or less on top of the S5.
3. The new Venge is roughly 8-9 watts better than the S5, which is pretty excellent.

I also like that the drag curve is flatter for the new Venge, which I assume you attribute to the new design of the lower half of the down tube.

IMO it looks sweet and of course looks definitely a lot more aero than the bikes out there. I wonder what their new TT bikes would look like and how it will perform.

Felts testing showed the S5 faster (barely) from -5 to 5 but then overtook it pretty solidly from there. None of those graphs detailed above represent that behavior.

What were the bike fit coordinates? Specialized could have easily manipulated the fit coordinates to be within a range that required all of the other bikes tested to use non aero spacers to stack the stem. They could have also used stems with a fair amount of rise.

They also tested with DA 9000. Bikes like the S5 and AR are known to test better with electronic drive trains (any bike would). But a clear advantage to specialized testing methodology considering they're able to route the cables completely internal. How do those numbers change if all bikes are using 9070?

So to Chris's point above, for those less aero inclined customers, they could more easily pick up those watts by picking up the new Venge and not having to think much else about anything. Those of us who are a bit more aero inclined would never run 20mm of stack and a 6 degree stem on the front end of our bikes.

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"One Line Robert"

Were the competitors bikes that include aero bars in the package like Cervelo and Giant tested that way, or did they have standard round bars?

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

 I'm pretty sure I saw the cervelo data during a presentation.

I'm sure the frames were, I was asking if they used Cervelo and Giant's integrated/aero road bars or round one. That could be a HUGE part of the equation.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Yes. I'll try to see what I have on that. I know I had a side bar chat on it.

Yeah, I think Dave said that the Di2 vs Mech was about 50grams of drag difference. I'm sure I'll get a response on whether the test bikes had aero road bars, if that didn't then you're looking at another ~50 grams of drag. So if they used round bars, then the s5 is basically equal and the AR is probably right there as well. Damon already said the s5 is really close to the p5.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Which implies that old Allez is actually more aero than a Tarmac?? ;-)

I'm actually not surprised...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Tell me more...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Chris,
Can you explain more about this comparison between the Shiv TT and the new Venge? Is this with same equipment on each, or with TT bars on Shiv and road bars on Venge? Something else? Same wheels?


Just trying to put it in context. For example, with my old S5, the statement was that with equivalent bars, wheels, and position, it was basically the same drag as a P4...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm interested in the shoes and skin suit. I don't like the looks of the frame personally, but I'm not shopping.

My half-a-thought concern is with that front brake. It's nothing like the cantilever straddle wire on a knobbly tire isssue, but I'm not sure I'd want to pick up anything on the tyre that could jam against that wire.

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Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster

Were the S-Works turbo tires revised? The website and the video (I think video) mentioned that this is the fastest tire, but doesn't the turbo cotton roll much faster? Does this just come down to the turbo fitting this wheel better so it is faster in terms of aero?

Anyone have thoughts?

It is hard to read the but front page article tire sidewall seems to note this specific rim and front even.

There is a new front tire in 22mm.

Right...but that's the S-Works Turbo model (220 tpi nylon casing), correct?

The Turbo Cotton has a 320 tpi cotton casing and comes in 24 and 26mm versions...and doesn't come in a black sidewall version either. From previous testing, the 24mm S-Works Turbo wasn't as low of Crr as the 24mm Turbo cotton, so I one wouldn't expect the 22mm version of the S-Works Turbo to roll faster than either (in fact, if all else is equal, the Crr on the 22 should be higher than the 24.)

I'm a bit confused on what exactly was tested/modeled as well...(IMHO, using the "Turbo" name in everything doesn't help)...especially since the Turbo Cotton is mentioned, yet in all pics of the bike I've seen (and the video) I've yet to see it with tires that have tan sidewalls (Turbo Cotton).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

My guess is the latex side walls on the Turbo Cotton don't look as good on an all black bike. Given the intended audience for the rollout, the regular Turbos were chosen for the photo shoot.

Haven't you heard? Gumwalls are the new "pro look" ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

it is hard to make out but the tire on the front page article seems to say 24 along with front and mentions this specific wheel by model.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...argest_roval_620.jpg

"Tell me more..."

for a long time we've had the opportunity to mold the whole road bar. just put a boss in it, screw the hood right onto a boss. no more sliding it up the hooks. then you could place the hood exactly where it needs to be, make the entire bar ergonomic, including the hooks. if you're going to make a whole, new paradigm-changing bar, in my mind that's the first thing you do.

i'm not smart enough to tell these guys what to do aerodynamically, they have it wired, i don't. but this is, to me, the big ergonomic thing hanging out there, and i don't know why companies haven't gone to this years ago. i promise you this is what it's going to be 5 years from now. it could've been done 5 years ago. it should be commonplace already.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Right the use of turbo everywhere makes it difficult, along with just throwing S-works in front of anything they deem fast.

On the current you can go buy stuff right now specialized site it specifically mentions a Turbo Cotton with no use of S-works anywhere and a gumwall. The S-works Turbo is black like you note. The video (I think) and the website for certain pertaining to this 5 minutes saved specifically states the S-Works Turbo. I did not see Cotton there myself unless I missed it and the front page article makes no mention of it being a "cotton" only S-works turbo.

I was a few days way from finally sucking it up and ordering those terribly ugly turbo cottons to try, but seeing as how my bike is so black it makes the new promo venge look like a box of fruitloops, if there are black wall tires that roll like the turbo cottons on the way I'll wait.

The graph is in CdA and and our quoted metrics are in sec/40km because, as you know, watts is highly dependent on average speed. So I guess the answer to your question is yes, for some speed ;-).

We've tested literally every competitor frame out there that we could get our hands on - including the Canyon Aeroroad. It's no secret that the S5, AR, and Propel are all in the mix (as I mentioned earlier, typically all within a 10 sec/40km spread). The Pinarello F8 and Canyon Aeroroad both also slot into that same grouping.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

I'll have to double check the exact fit coordinates that we used, but all of the current aero frames are very close in terms of stack and reach (including the updated S5). We pretty much defaulted to a ~8-10mm dust cap + 110mm 6 deg slammed as a general baseline and adjusted a few mm as necessary to get an exact match on each frame. I believe the only frame to use any actual spacers was the Canyon Aeroroad since it includes a 1pc bar/stem that was a touch too low. (by the way, we tested the S5 with the new bar that is now included with the updated frame).

As for DA9000 vs. 9070, it's what we had multiple groupsets of to be able to build up several frames at a time for testing. Yes, results will vary somewhat depending on how cables are routed on other frames. We unfortunately didn't have the bandwidth to go back and retest everything with all different combinations of groupsets.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

All bikes were tested with integrated components as spec'd. So the new S5 was tested with the new Cervelo aerobar. Ditto for the Propel and Canyon Aeroroad (and of course the Venge ViAS).

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

My notes have the turbo and not the turbo cotton.

That I agree with 100%... This launch has been pretty impressive. Very comprehensive, well done videos, a nicely tied in teaser video linking back to the whole 5 minutes theme, etc. extremely well done.

I'm also very impressed with the attention paid to the details and the willingness to look at everything fresh. In an industry where designs are often constrained by the parameters of the component companies, that is not always easy (and rarely cheap!) to do.

@ Chris - I get how and why you are doing the comparisons. I guess the question I have for you is whether the line from the previously linked article (vs. similar previous items) was a misunderstanding in the author's part, or is that how you guys are positioning it? To me, comparing it to the previous TdF winning gear is kinda apples & oranges. 1) we know Nibali rode the Evade helmet for at least some of the Tour. 2) I doubt anyone is gonna wear a skinsuit in the mountains and 3) I'm guessing both Nibali and Contador will be on Tarmacs in the mountains.

But great job in the bike design and launch!

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

However, don't people vary the hood position on the bar somewhat? You've just removed that adjustment possibility.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Hey Tom, yea that's an interesting graph that happened almost by accident. We were validating one of the last Venge ViAS prototypes and happened to have my Shiv TT in the tunnel for another test. So we decided to do a back to back test to see how they would stack up. Both bikes were basically built to my personal fit coordinates, but 1 road setup and 1 TT setup. The Shiv TT had the TT cockpit, 404FC front and Super9 disc rear. The Venge ViAS had CLX64 wheels and otherwise a standard road setup. So not really a good apples-to-apples test but we thought the graph was a nice way to put in context the jump in aero performance from the original Venge.

To be honest, if we were to put an integrated aerobar and disc rear wheel on the Venge ViAS, it would likely test even faster...but that's discussion's for another day ;-)....

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

...and a rider ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Sorry about the tire confusion. The tires spec'd on the Venge ViAS are the standard SW Turbo casing (not the cotton). The tires are labeled as 22 on the front (new casing) and 24 rear (existing casing) - *however* on the CLX64 wheels with a significantly wider internal width, the installed sizes are ~24mm front and 26mm rear. This was our target in the design phase of the wheel and tire, but since certification testing happens on a 17C (IIRC?) internal width, we had to label the front a 22.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Sure, depending on the starting position and aero bar position. It is also dealing with the biggest component of drag - rider position.

And as I noted, it is more believable now that we know specifically what they are claiming against....I just think it is a bit of apples and oranges.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Hats off to Specialized for getting their engineer to be front and center on the data discussion here. It certainly helps the transparency issue.

We're positioning it both ways. For the tech and aero conscious rider like most of the ST crowd (and frankly a minority still), I'm here to be as transparent as possible about our testing and claims and how it stacks up against the best in class now. For the vast majority of the cycling world, the notion of a fast bike is still the stiffness-to-weight optimized frame and lightweight everything. The idea with the 5 minute campaign is to drive home the point that compared to even some relatively exotic equipment, there is a TON of time on the table to be had by adopting aero as a system.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

"However, don't people vary the hood position on the bar somewhat? You've just removed that adjustment possibility."

yes. you're right. and i considered that. one way to solve that is to have, maybe, 3 bosses, you take your pick. but honestly i think if you start with a really great ergo bar, and you make it right, then you should just have 1 boss. people move it all over now because there's no real good ergo option. i look at it kind of like bench versus bucket seats in your car. in the old days we had bench seats. bucket seats meant you couldn't move around, back and forth, on your bench seat. but if you make the bucket seat correctly, comfortably, you won't want to move around.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks. Crr difference between the 22 and 24 versions?

BTW, I figured out where my confusion is coming from...it turns out I read Zinn's take in VN on the bike earlier and he specifically calls the tires "Turbo Cotton" and references the 320tpi. Doh!

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

It really is, to the point I've actually passed links to the site and youtube video around the office today hoping our guys can take some cues with new stuff. Kind of funny but the little clock thing spec did looks similar to a new logo we have been using on some promo videos lately! Different industry but similar marketing can work so it was interesting to see that in both.

Yes, the 5 minute figure admittedly has shock and awe value and that was part of the point - but as I mentioned earlier, mainly for getting the attention of those that haven't really put thought into the performance that aero equipment can bring.

But, if you look at the graph that I posted earlier, the Venge ViAS still represents what we believe to be a step change in aero performance over the current best-in-class aero bikes.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Thanks for the clarification, the ST front page image seems to corroborate that as I think the full line was (24mm front on Roval CLX64)? Something like that. Also I do recall maybe in the video you said 24 front 26 rear? So again makes sense.

I still want a black wall tire that rolls like the cotton though :)

Tom, I'll have to verify exact Crr figures, but I believe they should be virtually identical to before (assuming the 22 is mounted to the CLX64) since we essentially targeted the 24 casing shape mounted on a narrower rim when designing the new tire (again, the 22 on the CLX64 measures a physical 24mm). Same tread compound as before.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

I certainly appreciate your openness re: the nature of the claims. Again, I get why you guys are doing it and where the claims are directed.

No doubt the 5 minute campaign has a "stickiness" to it....most good marketing campaigns do.

Do you guys have the numbers for the Venge vs the old one (asks the old Venge owner)?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

A thought...
A bladder system would contain / separate materials.. the volume of fluid moved is small, therefore the volume change across a bladder would be similarly small.
If materials section became an issue a bladder to bladder interface would allow this scenario..

We have quick release connectors on motorcycle brake lines in endurance racing, similarly in rally car systems.. maybe some tech could be robbed from there...

and it's REALLY on the right track as to how its executing these launches.


Dan,

Indeed!

Other brands in the business would be wise to study not just the products, which look great and everyone is going ga-ga over, but the WAY Specialized has rolled this out with great content marketing! It's all very well done!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog