from the pic on velonews, i think it is the same pick of the wheel from behind turned. Look on a big monitor and it is clear that the pad is already thinner on the rear than on the front. Also think about a lever and physics. Even a bottom pivot wears uneven, which is why they had a parrallel pivot on the high end V-brakes in the late 90s. The pivot is way in front of the rear of the pad so that is making this effect even worse and where it would affect the entire pad on a bottom pivot it affects the rear of this front pivot much greater than the front of the pad.

I

I have a 24" monitor, and I don't think it's clear. Perfect angles and shading in the background can make a lot of difference. It's just too much of a stretch for me to draw those conclusions.

Is that where that "5 minutes" website came from? ;-)

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simulate on a piece of paper

Put a line on the paper as the rim.

then place a pivot about 17 mm away from that rim and place a small arm cut out of cardboard about 5cm long with a simulated brake pad of about 1cm off that arm at the very back of the arm and see what happens when you pivot it. Also since the cable is at the back of that any normal flex in the system which may have corrected this, if the cable was pulling on the front of the arms instead, is making this effect worse.

They can correct a little by placing the pivot as close to the rim as possible but it would not eliminate.

you have too much free time

As aero as a TT bike?
http://www.bikeradar.com/...-aero-is-aero-19273/

I think it is possible that you can skew the protocol to suit the outcome desired for a given test.
Selecting a data point instead of publishing all data is not an uncommon method of promotion in this and other industries.

I'm guessing of course. I'm eager to see it all play out.

-SD

If you take out the aero helmet and the drops -> aero bars that test shows ~ 20 watts different, not the 60 required for 5min.


I could not agree more, and have horror stories of my own that involve 'creative' tests to get the numbers your boss wants in a wind tunnel.

I'm most impressed by your desire to see/hear more. I think that speaks volumes both about you (in a very positive way) and what Specialized has done here. I just hope the marketing people don't muck it up with over-reaching factitious claims, and let the 'honest' numbers and the hard work that obviously went into sweating the details speak for themselves.

I'm an admitted aero nerd and trim my shoe straps, remove my valve extenders, and align my quick release handles when I'm competing.
If a billion dollar bike brand invests in making aero road bikes and convinces the public at large they are a performance advantage that helps Felt.
Not everyone wants the same shade of red on their bikes. Clearly slower aero road bikes like the Madone, Foil, Propel, S3, and Venge are selling today. If the new Venge is more aerodynamic than the current AR it won't halt the sales of Felt's bike. Some people will still want Shimano brakes. Some people will still want the AR geo. Some people just prefer to zig vs. zag; our shade of red so-to-speak.

I've got a few friends at Specialized that have spent time on this project. As they're my friends, I hope they're successful.

As for the marketing people and claims, that's secondary as we'll have the ability to generate our own "honest" numbers once the bike is available for sale or we can get our hands on one. If the bar has been raised, it'll just mean the next generation AR might take an extra 6 months or year or two to be released.

-SD

The pads are creating some frontal area, but they are trailing the ST bottle and aren't down in the muck under the BB.

It's entirely possible that neither brake is all that great for aero (compared to say Tririgs on an S5) and Specialized is just being different...

You might be right.

But, seeing that image, I just realized one thing that is kinda clever. The movement of the brake caliper arms effectively "toes in" the brake pads. That is pretty cool.

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The movement of the brake caliper arms effectively "toes in" the brake pads. That is pretty cool

Yikes. The pivot is down at the bottom, correct? The pad is essentially perpendicular to it? That doesn't seem good at all. The pads will wear very unevenly.

I'm hoping for a parallelogram arrangement...think back to the 90's and the original shimano 'v' brakes. If that is the case these very could well brake better than traditional dual pivot calipers. They certainly have enough material to look stiff enough.

Did Cav win today ? Hmmmmm

I think he crashed and Sagan won

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Sagan won on the new venge....your point is moot. I'm willing to bet the killer lead out train had more to do with it than the bike did though.

I ride with a guy on a Propel. I really love the frame (1 1/4 to 1 1/2 steerer with massive/beautiful proprietary stem), but the brakes are inferior to dual pivot brakes. I really wishes they could have put a hole to mount normal brakes on that bike.

For Specialized to go with v style brakes is really disappointing. With the great reviews of the SRAM hydro-rim brake, I was really hoping those early Venge patent diagrams were of an integrated hydraulic solution that could work with the current hydro Shimano, Sram and upcoming Campy road shifter/brakes. With this new Venge sporting v-brakes, I think this bike is going to be a dud...especially if it comes with that swoopy handlebar (if you want the top of the bars higher than the drops, get deeper drops and don't run a negative angled stem). I dub this the P4 of the roadbike world.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Whatever you want. Just list what speed and air density you base your guess off of so that we can give you credit later. ;)

Yes for both front and rear. You can see in the one front brake picture on Cycling News or Velo News that the pad at rest is at a noticeable angle to the rim to account for swinging in from the front instead of from the top, relative to the rim. The pad is not worn as another poster thought, it has to be at an angle to the rim to account for the difference in travel due to the difference in distance from the pivot. The normal force of the pad against the rim is going to have a significant linear distribution over the pad length instead of a fairly small linear distribution over the pad height in a conventional caliper. So wear will be very uneven as you said. No big deal on the Pro Tour, but for the average Joe/Jane? And the normal force at the forward edge of the pad is going to be much higher than at any point in a conventional caliper since it has to average out to a similar force to get equivalent braking. Wonder how that will work on a Chinese carbon rim? I'm also curious how it behaves as it approaches lock-up.

Maybe hydraulic is the end game, but is not yet developed enough to trust in a Grand Tour. Cable-actuated will stick around for the Comp models, and S-Works and SL-whatever eventually get hydraulic?

Brian

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

I think that flat (horizontal) stem is of aero benefit.
An upswept drop bar would likely have much better aero properties than a stack of headset spacers or an upward sloping stem.
Remember that stem has "stuff" going on inside it. Making a flat, rise, and drop top section handlebar might prove more aero than using conventional means to change bar height. It certianly does with TT/Tri bikes.
I wouldn't be surprised if that handlebar bar was split in two pieces at the stem barbore either.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Who won Stage 4 ? Hmmm

Sagan's new Venge doesn't seem to have the wing-shaped bars that were on Cav's bike.

Nope, the normal aerofly's. You can see the pics a few pages back in this thread.

I think SuperDave had the right idea that the stack of the hoods/drops is probably going to be determined by the handlebar instead of spacers underneath the stem. Essentially the road version of 'pedestal'ing'. I'm surprised by this because it adds more SKU's and increases the amount of part the dealers are going to have to stock to get fits right. Maybe they will integrate this into their 'S-Build' system to try and reduce the amount of variability at the shop level. I can understand why it would be more aero....but this is a pretty big compromise.

Well it could be that this is intended to be a high-end S-Works bike similar to the Shiv TT. If it is at that level, then dealers don't need to stock the parts because they won't normally stock the bike. Custom orders only (or really high end stores).

Let's face it, Specialized has never made an effort to sell the TT Shiv. If they had, it would have been offered as a fully built bike in addition to the 5,500$ module. As a result I have seen exactly 1 on a shop floor (BikeWorks in Kona probably 3 years ago). I do, however, see plenty at races.

Truthfully, I have no idea.
I'm just an outside observer like most everyone else contributing to this thread.
I'm sure the guys reading this in Morgan Hill will jump in as soon as they're able.
-SD

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