Same bars (aerofly) and group (9000)? What brake on the 1st gen Venge?

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"One Line Robert"

This is the big question - when will we see the GC riders adopt aero bikes for all stages? I think that is what it will take to get folks to embrace it en masse. If this bike is truly no compromise vs. the Tarmac, what remains, other than perception, to keep Contador and Nibili off of it?

^excluding the need to be familiar with your bike, which is an excuse I can buy this close to the TdF.

That is all great and really interesting information.

Thank you!

It's all marketing. In a couple of years Specialized will come out with a new Tarmac that they will hype and push as the greatest bike ever created.

Likely not all stages unless Etixx and/or Saxo mechanics they can get it to 6.8kgs with an SRM or Quarq. You'll likely see it used by Nibali and Contador perhaps during the first week or last stage, or a flat stage in between (conserve energy).

Right now the Di2 ViAS SW is 7.7kg which is about 900g heavier (with deep carbon wheels) than a comparable Tarmac set up (shallow carbon wheels) right at the 6.8k limit.

Yes, that's correct. Original Venge was spec'd as we do now with the Aerofly bar. DA9000 group, including the brakes.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

I'm late to the discussion, and I do not mean to sound confrontational, but in the interest of expediency, I am being direct: Every time I see a graph with no data on the y-axis I pretty much just throw it in the trash.( Edit. ahhh... now I see the divisions. they are barely visible on my screen but with no real values it still is lacking very important info) Also, without precisely detailing the setup of each bike, the data is really meaningless. Frame size, fit coordinates, wheels, tires, bars, saddle, bottles & cages, rider/no rider, ambient conditions, velocity... without all that data for each trace on the graph nothing can be learned from it at all. I understand that the vast majority of buyers do not know any of this and will just look at "5 minutes faster" and say "wow" but if you want to convince the slowtwitch crowd, you have to provide meaningful information.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

There are faint white lines on the Y-axis if you look hard enough

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

(3) Yes, we've found that laces can be faster than other fastening methods on the shoe. Equally as important is getting the small details right (down to the type of laces and embossing the shoe upper to recess the laces flush when tied).

Chris,

Nice work on the new Sub6 Shoes. I've been riding the Giro Empires now for over a year, and aero-ness aside, the fit you can get with the laces is much better, and as noted, you can make a lighter overall shoe! Funny how old can become new!

They are not for everyone, and are definitely NOT for triathlon - unless you like long transitions! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Sorry, in the text of my post where I included that image, I stated that the y-axis is CdA and each division is 0.002 m^2.

Frame size: 56cm
Fit Coordinates: will need to dig up exact stack and reach coordinates, but as stated earlier it roughly corresponded to a 8-10mm dust cap + 110 mm 6 deg stem; pretty much every bike was able to hit this position with just a few mm of adjustment (e.g. I don't recall any of the competitor bikes requiring an actual spacer).
Wheels/tires: all tested with Roval CLX60s and SW24 tires inflated to 100psi.
Bars: Round compact *except* when the bike is spec'd with a proprietary or integrated solution (e.g. Cervelo's new bar with the updated S5, Propel, Canyon Aeroroad, Venge ViAS)
Saddle: Romin 143
Bottles and cages: 2x rib cage w/ 22 oz bottles
Rider: the graph I posted is for no rider - we've tested the same set with both a full mannequin and lower half only. We've also tested a limited set of interesting ones with a live rider. In all cases (interestingly) involving aero road bikes the CdA deltas held within 0.001-0.002 m^2 of the bike alone tests. As a result, using the no rider graph is easier to read since the max/min values for each bike (vs. bike+rider) isn't as dramatic.
Ambient conditions: varied slightly through the block of testing, but we measure in real time barometric pressure, relative humidity, and temperature to determine air density which is used for determining CdA from the raw force values (aero geek side note: we actually measure dynamic pressure directly from a pitot so we don't technically need air density to determine CdA, but we do anyways to know wind speed from dynamic pressure).
Velocity: Ran at 50km/h wind speed, but again this is normalized out as we record and report CdA. We have done a subset of testing at 40km/h as well and the CdA values hold (meaning the flow regime is consistent in that speed range).

Does that answer your questions? Let me know if you have more...

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

What, you mean you can't tie laces while pedaling out of T1?

Yea, that might be a problem :-)

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Yep - this should have been done a long time ago - maybe differences in shifter/brake levers is a limiting factor... so a bar would become specific for say105 of a certain year model... maybe too many options.

The real option now should be bars molded with brake hoods incorporated, and places for buttons for electric... this would be an extra bonus for weird brakes like the specialised as the pull on the levers could be designed specifically for the brakes...

Very helpful, thanks! I'm most surprised and pleased to see them all with the same wheels and tires.

Regarding velocity - here is where I reveal my ignorance regarding wind tunnel testing. Won't different tube shapes have different points of separation at different velocities, especially at higher yaw angles? Therefore altering speed of the test could alter the results somewhat? 50kph seems a bit fast... Aren't most tests done at 40kph?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Chris, is there a reason all the bikes weren't tested with 9070? Will you guys be doing so in the future?

can you provide more info on this? where did you see that 7.7kg figure? what deep carbon wheels (e.g. depth, clincher/tubular, etc)?

thank you. i suspect an old S-W venge frame/stem/aerofly/DA brakes/post would be lighter than the new frame/integrated brakes/stem/bars/post, but i've not seen any figures.

amazing work, @chrisyu. thanks for bringing all the data and being so accessible/transparent.

i have 2 questions:
1) do you know if the range of stem and bar options will be available for the first deliveries that we're hearing about in a matter of weeks? my fit requires a 135 stem (i suspect Cav has one!), and while i have a chance to get an early shipment it's not too useful to me if the only stem i can get is the 105. my suspicion is the common sizes will be made first, but i am hopeful that the full range might be there for early adopters. if not, then i'll forego my position in the queue to someone who can make do with the standard setup and then just get one in the fall. :)

2) re: the SRM mount--if the bars are essentially the same as the aerofly that exists today, will there be room for the standard SRM (/gopro/garmin) mounts? i might need the +25mm bar and wonder if inline mounts would be less aero with that setup. (today i ride a 56 venge today with a 140/-10 stem and no spacers; based on what the configurator tells me, i'm deducing that the new Venge has a shorter HT--i need the long stem and no spacers for the reach and then tune the stack via the +25mm bar.)

thank you! this must have taken YEARS of work. must feel great to roll it out and talk about it more broadly. chapeau!

hope to see you at the races.

As in non-aero road bars? Why would you handicap other bikes with an unaero bar when the intent is clearly to compare bikes decked out similar aero livery? Using an Aerofly would be a far fairer comparison.

Theoretically, yes there could potentially be flow attachment differences that are speed dependent. However, with bike frames the sensitivity to speed is pretty low. There are pretty much 3 speed regimes (for a given size shape) to worry about, and aerodynamicists term these: sub-critical, critical or transitional, and super-critical. For bike frames, we're operating basically 100% of the time in the sub-critical regime.

We test at 50 km/h to increase signal to noise for harder to measure changes. We've also done comparison testing at 40km/h and I think I mentioned earlier that we by and large see the same CdA values. We actually just shot a Win Tunnel video on dependence of speed, where we compared a position change at 30 km/h and 50 km/h and saw the same CdA delta.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Yea, it was a practical reason. We had/have a bunch of 9000 groups to build up several bikes at once - not so much 9070. We have done some limited testing w/ 9070 so far, but yes we'll likely do more.

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

1) We should have all the same sizes of bar and stem that we offer now - need to double check on the 135 option though (which would be roughly equivalent to a 6 deg 140 stem in reach). We will definitely have a 125 option (roughly equivalent to a 6 deg 130 stem in reach). Not positive on exact timing, but I do know that they're trying to get service parts (e.g. bar and stem options) shipped when the bikes do...or at least very shortly after. I can double check this for you.

2) The bar is basically the same foil shape and fit dimension as the current Aerofly, but the center clamp section is completely different to accommodate the internal cabling. Combined with the ViAS stem, this means a standard SRM mount won't work (there's virtually no exposed round section outside the stem). We're working on a solution for SRM computers at the moment. The stack to the top of the HT is the same as the existing Venge, but the lowest dust cap on the new bike is 6.5mm tall vs. the 15mm duckbill spacer on the original Venge (which probably explains why you're concluding the new bike has a shorter HT based on the fit tool).

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Yes, that was a judgement call. The original intention was to test the bikes as spec'd by the manufacturer with the exception of wheels since some of the bikes are sold with basically alloy box section wheels. For the ones that didn't have integrated cockpits or other parts, we bought framesets rather than full bikes which meant we had to provide the bar, hence our compact bend round bar.

There's a ton of combinations possible if we open it up to how any one of you would build a bike from scratch. Which actually would be an interesting test to do....hmmm...

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

thanks for the fast reply. i appreciate it. when you say "6 degree 140", do you mean -6?

i currently run a 140/-10 stem. in order to get my preferred position, i actually had to abandon the stock aero/15mm spacer in favor of a very thin (~1mm) flat one. i also run 38cm bars. so--you can see my worry: my preferred fit seems to be an edge case where i'd need that 135 stem w/ 38/+25 bars. thank you SO MUCH for confirming. this will makes it easier to decide whether to order or to let my spot go.

also, thanks for the info on the SRM mount. i'm pretty much wed to my 7 (pc8 on the way!), so inability to run that would make me pause.

i appreciate the info on the HT & top spacer. i probably could get on with the equivalent of a 130/-6, but a 105 stem (guessing ~110/-6 equivalent) would be a no-go.

the fit tool was showing a 135 stem + 38 bar/+25 rise was just 2mm off from my current stack & reach.

THANK YOU!

edit to add: can you commandeer a 135mm stem from Cav's supply? just guessing he's on something like a 49 w/ 135 stem based on wheat we read about his frame size on the old venge. :D

for anyone that hans't discovered it yet, the 360 degree viewer on the Specialized site is pretty awesome and shows much more detail than most the generic photos.

Yea, sorry I meant -6 deg. You have a really aggressive position and it does sound like you'd need a 135 to match it. If the fit tool is suggesting that, I believe that length will be available (since the fit tool is drawing from part numbers).

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Chris Yu
Applied Technology
Specialized Bicycle Components
@chrisyuinc

Great work integrating so much of the design, it is awesome to see how much latitude you guys are given to challenge the status quo of how a bike looks. That said, i'd be interested to see just how close something like an AR FRD as spec'd from Felt (404's, 9070, Zipp aero bar, etc) with the zero-drag Elite Crono bottles as previously noted by SuperDave would compare to your bike as spec'd with integrated components that was designed to work with a standard bottle.

As has been said above, the drag curves previously posted of the S5 and of the AR are shown to only get better when stepping off of 0* yaw so its interesting that your charts show worsening drag numbers at yaw, but perhaps I am misreading the graphics provided.