So what does he have that got him from 1:17 to 52 min ironman swim. you tell us what makes him swim that fast but not 48 min.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

The race is largely set within the first 400m and to a large extent within the first 100m. The first athlete to the 100m buoy is usually around 1:11. If you take into account the open water start at Kona, it's open water and no turns the effort is probably closer to 1:05-1:06/100m in a long course pool. For those yards inclined, it would be 56-58/100 yard equivalent. The trick is being able to go out that fast but not blow up within 400m. That is a lot of training. Considering you also have to do well for 1.2 to 2.4 miles and be able to respond to the 2 surges that usually happen during the course of the swim at Kona. Remember, Joe Skipper was the first to finish who didn't come out of the water in the front pack. The whole reason I wrote the article below with Thorsten was because I had been telling all the pros I worked with for the previous decade that this day at Kona was coming. They could either train for where the competition would be a few years down the line or eventually get shut out.

The Cost of the Kona Swim


It isn't wholly the total yardage, but swimming more doesn't hurt if you want to improve. With triathletes, it'll be more about what type of yardage you do for that specific athlete. In my experience, and I'm not speaking about Lionel specifically, triathletes tend to over-train or under-recover from the bike and run. It would be one thing if the skill of swimming fast and efficiently was dependent more on VO2Max, but it isn't. The most important thing an athlete is training is their brain.

And here's where the problem comes in for our over-trained/under-recovered athletes - an athlete's attention and where they direct it is the most valuable resource in the most limited quantity. If you want to drive improvement of a neuro-muscular skill, you need two things. Focus (where you are able to direct and hold your attention) with a sense of urgency and rest (sleep or non-sleep deep rest where you get into an alpha/theta state.) One big part of why triathletes struggle so much with improvement in the swim is the three things most likely to hijack attention are a threat in your immediate area, bad mood or stress(mental, emotional, physical). When an athlete is over-trained/under-recovered from the bike and run there isn't any room to drive the neuro-muscular adaption in the swim. There's no focus.
I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

A lack of power AND a lack of form.

I can probably beat Lionel in a 50m free with my head out of the water the entire time and one hand balled in a fist.

When he placed 2nd in Kona, his body was totally different from his current shape. He was masculine and had bit more weight and possibly more fat? He’s really lean right now and has no buoyancy. He’s not that tall compared to Jan, Sam, Ditlev, his chest is not huge and wide like Blu and Iden. His hands are tiny too and he cups his hands instead of spreading fingers with 5mm gap. He’s not bending his arms correctly in the water either. Anyway, he has to kick way harder and up the cadence to improve his swim. I know it because my body type is very similar to his. Some fat or tall lady at a local swim clinic swims way faster than me. I sink and struggle to afloat so I have to put extra effort to catch up with them. He doesn’t have a swimmer’s body so that’s pretty unfortunate but I still believe he can lead 2nd pack or in the 2nd pack if he can make his swim more efficient just like he said in the latest video. I’m just middle of the pack guy and improved 100m sprint time from 2:30 to 1:28 in 50m pool so I know the struggle. Mostly, I watch Instagram and YouTube videos to improve my swim.

Are there any FOP pros who didn't grow up swimming? Magnus has made huge gains, right? But he's certainly not FOP.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Actually, I'm completely certain that the REAL reason is swim lags his B and R is that is because he's phenomenally talented and cycling and running, and he's more of a 'normie' in terms of swim talent.

Look at his bike results - dude was super fast from the get-go. No years of grinding to get fast. Probably same with running, even though I don't know his younger years running background, but suffice to say he was a top-tier runner in tri from the get-go.

Now with swimming, he's improving with the curve of a really good AGer, and likely has a similar ceiling. Throw in some advantage with his awesome cardio that can help him a bit, and he's smashing most AGers (except for ajthomas ha etc.).

If you look at Lionel's swim improvement from his start at as a pro, he's actually improved a lot. He actually has a lot to be proud of in terms of how much swim improvement he's made. But when you're going up against Blu and Frodo, really good simply isn't good enough.

He still can be great and win some big races though. Ironman and even HIM races underemphasize the swim; he's beaten Vincent Luis superswimmer (Luis was specifically picked by his federation because of his awesome swimming) before in long format racing where the swim is underemphasized, so there is hope. But the hope is still slim against the new crop like Blu who will kill you on long and short format, in all disciplines.

THIS SHOULD BE THE NEXT YOUTUBE VIDEO!!!

he has a shit load of power, just like the bike he has to overcome moving around so much creating it so to decrease the resistance against that power.

Like you think a 12 year girl has more power on a 50 m then Lionel??? Pretty sure that the one thing he has over his competition.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

not Lionel but you.

Floating is swimming has nothing to do with Body fat and muscle.


every guy in the olympics floats great and is super lean.

Lots of fatter people sink when trying to swim

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing:

swimming power is pulling (or kicking) water in the opposite direction you are trying to move.

Lionel does not produce a lot of swimming power. It might be a lack of flexibility, it might be a breathing issue. I don't know.

I mentioned the 12 year old who swam a 2:01 in the 200M free 2 weeks ago. The kid looked like he had paddles on. Lionel looks like he doesn't have hands.

I love the guy, watch all his stuff and wish him nothing but the best. He is fun to talk about because there is SO MUCH there to talk about.

correct, i would definitly not categorize him as a powerhouse in this area and many young kids are more powerfull then him in this specific '' definition'' of power.

as with most adult onset swimmers, developping a powerfull movement is much more complex then pushing backward hard. there is so much power coming from the hips, and supporting muscle other then the arms and my guess is....that is lacking for lionel. but there is always hope...he as gone a long way from his debut in the sport.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

OK lets not get into it so much as this is Lionel's problem not ours.

There is no pull!!! if you are a grown man your biggest issue for not being a better swimmer is you pull to hard.

I already outlined the force vectors of force forward vs force against.

Lionel has a hard effort in the forward propulsion efforts ( it's pretty good ) but is basically pulling a parachute with his arms and body position. That's why he is always gassed in his video. at paces guys other just do for warm up.

if you gave Lionel's body position drag issues to a guy with a bad forward propulsion you basically have everyone on here that a top age grouper 60-70 min swim time. SO his best skill is propulsion.

300 watts forward with 150 watts drag are exhausting. net 150
260 watts forward with 100 watts drag are faster and not exhausting. net 160

you can't measure that in the water but a good coach and trainer can see it.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

https://www.eolab.com/swimbetter ?

thanks this is great if you can use it properly. I would like to test this out with some different swimmers.
Also see how they are measuring drag ???

Don't like everything he is saying here though???

like, I know the hand has the sensor. but good swimmers although have load on the their hands it is created with their whole body. just like all runner hit the ground with force on their feet but lots of slow runners have impact speed higher then faster runners.

Slow beginners focus too much on hands hands hands and never get the whole package.

If you speed your hand up that doesn't mean it has force on it just you feel it moving fast doesn't translate to speed.

Thanks for the link.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I think swim 'power' can be measured, using stretch cords. One of these that barely allows you to reach the other end of the pool. (there are other more expensive options like weighted pulley systems used by college teams) . I think it could also be set up in a way to actually measure the force produced with the right scale attached to the anchor point.

As you near the limit of the cord's ability to stretch, you are also going really slow so forward drag is not the limiter, it is the power you can put directly into moving forward. I end up taking about twice as many strokes for the resisted 25 compared to normal.

I think it would be super interesting to see how well a bunch of triathletes do with these stretch cords. Knowing how hard it is just to reach the other end in a 25y pool I doubt many would get there-- but if they can get there then raw power isn't the limiter to their performance.

For LS specifically, I don't think he knows how to output enough power to complete the stretch cord 25 (not that he's not capable of it, specifically he doesn't know how). I don't think he generally knows how to swim that hard without flailing. I keep remembering one of his videos where he did 10x200scy on 2:30 going for best average. At the end of the set he was upset with his performance so he literally did the whole thing again! And went faster! Anyone who knows how to actually swim hard would be totally gassed! I've done this exact set several times and I know I can't just take a 5 min break and go faster the second time around.

I think another good way to measure if pulling power or leg drag is an issue is using a swim parachute with a pull buoy (and maybe paddles because the 'chutes are hard).

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Appreciate the simple 'up into your ears' phrase. Went into the sea this evening for 3.5k continuous with the one focus of brush your upper arms against your ears, nothing else, and knocked off 6 seconds per 100m compared to swimming half that distance a few days ago. Granted I have a hell of a lot more work to do but this has really kick started something.

Thank you.

I've been playing around with the new swim sensors that came out. It's been interesting putting people on the team and myself on them and analyzing the data. They produce a huge amount of data. The general triathlete profile has looked something like the one below....There isn't a great amount of force being produced and the force that is being produced isn't going into propulsion. It bleeds out in any direction but forward. For reference, elite level distance swimmers are in the 65-75% propulsive with about 15-20% as downward, 0% upward and 0% hand drag, left and right are around 4%. From the graph below you can see at the start of the pull on both left and right side there is a lot of force being directed out to the side instead of back. And the right side finishes the stroke while the left doesn't. My guess is as I use these more the profiles will look similar and paint a picture of what swim coaches already see with triathletes.

I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

lots of good stuff their, we use lots of parachute and TB's and paddles, which do give you a feel of load but can it be measured well.

here is an example.

guy 45 years old pool hard effort for 300 m 6:08 , 1:55,2:00 2:13.
wetsuit swims 1:45, 1:47, 1:47

female 45 years old hard effort for 300, 6:05 1:58, 2:00, 2:05
wetsuit swims 1:55, 1:55, 1:55

He had much more forward pressure but drag was high and increased as timing with breathing making it harder due to air intake.

She has great float but lacks any arm loading and forward pressure. struggles to get any speed but can float to a 2:00 / 100m wetsuit swim easy.

they have different goals not just had pressure and work harder. how can you tell both of them increase propulsion they think they are already at max force!!!

THIS IS WHY PEOPLE HATE SWIMMING!!!!

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Power is force applied over time, so if you've got a crazy high cadence, you can get equal or more power than a powerful person with low cadence. So there would have to be some cadence factor in there for power.

But the force measurement alone would be pretty interesting in itself.

The cadence is important, esp for kids and shorter swimmers. In the youtube videos of 9-year olds swimming fast 50s (near 1:00 flat) their cadences are really, really high.

Only if you can hold the same power at the higher tempo which isn't as easy as you're making it out to be.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I never said it was easy. All of us AGers know how freaking hard it is to hold high stroke rates with any semblance of effectiveness, no surprise to us there. My stroke rate is for sure nowhere near where it needs to be for me to be swimming with the big boys.

You aren't putting in enough training to worry about tempo. And if you are trying to drive a lot of tempo on less than 30k-40k a week, you aren't increasing efficiency in your stroke, but decreasing it. Just FYI....

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Yes, we all know EVERYONE including Jan Frodeno can get faster on elite-swimming volume.

The probability that any AGer will swim elite-volume like 40k+ per week while staying competitive in bike-run is zero. So that's not a relevant reality for me, nor anyone here outside of people who are basically pure competitive swimmers and bike-run incidentally. I think you actually fall into this very category yourself.

I'll concede my lack of expertise in swimming to you, but I'll say that I've never heard that you shouldnt' be working on increasing your stroke rate unless you're swimming 30k+/wk as you mentioned above. I think most swim coaches are trying to increase stroke rate of their clients while keeping efficiency, even if they're as low as 7k/wk.

And I've said repeatedly - I'm not chasing elite performance. I'm chasing the next level of AG swimmers, the ones who are beating me regularly in my races. That probably corresponds to like a 13 or 14 year old girl B-level swim standard, I'm guessing. Not exactly shooting the moon here.

Exactly. Stop chasing an elite level of tempo when you aren't putting in the training for it.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Ah yes of course great points

Probably just measured the hands

Thank you

I think I really need an in person coach for swimming

By any chance are any of the swim coaches in this thread located in upstate NY, Central FL or near Clemson SC?