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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
trail wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:

If this is the case, it's a good reason for the UCI to amend its saddle setback rules (assuming they actually cared about safety). The current rules basically force riders to sit way off the front of the saddle.


I don't know exactly why, but I do that anyway, even outside UCI restrictions.

When going full-gas TT it's just the most comfortable position for me.

And I don't think I'm alone there.

Edit: That's Lionel Sanders, I think. Not me. :)



Exactly...a "short nose" split saddle and "junk off the front"...basically "perched" on just the sit bones...is what allows for an effective (and comfortable) rotated forward position

JOF is pretty standard for tri positioning on a split nose saddle (by design). Looking at LS' position, he's got a forward angled seatpost and a pretty steep position. For the UCI pros, they can't put the saddle that far forward (LS had to do a bunch of changes for his hour record as well), so they go beyond "JOF" (supporting their weight on the pubic rami). Most of us on split nose saddles can also attest that it is a wider/more stable platform for nose riding than trying to do so with a conventional saddle where the weight is on soft tissue (taint) and you are much less planted.

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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:

Which brings me to something I've never understood-people go to all the trouble of buying fancy seats and getting fancy bike fits and then go race/ride sitting only on the very edge of the seat, and in a position that is nothing like the bike fit.

So with that being said is it the bike fits fault for not putting the seat further forward, or the athletes fault for creeping forward for whatever reason?

I think you misunderstood Tom (and to a lesser extent me). Lionel's saddle there might be in the correct position. It's neither a fit mistakes, not a position fault in allowing it to creep forward. Just the correct TT position.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
dunno wrote:


Which brings me to something I've never understood-people go to all the trouble of buying fancy seats and getting fancy bike fits and then go race/ride sitting only on the very edge of the seat, and in a position that is nothing like the bike fit.

So with that being said is it the bike fits fault for not putting the seat further forward, or the athletes fault for creeping forward for whatever reason?


I think you misunderstood Tom (and to a lesser extent me). Lionel's saddle there might be in the correct position. It's neither a fit mistakes, not a position fault in allowing it to creep forward. Just the correct TT position.

I think you misunderstood me. Look at his bike fit video on YT for example (or any other triathlete) they sit back on the seat. But all the race shots always have them sitting just on the nose.

So where should you sit-right on the nose or back a little, and if right on the nose then Id assume the bike fit should look the same?
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, I see your point. You just left out that the fit mistake might be the athlete's fault by *not* creeping forward during the bike fit:

Quote:
"So with that being said is it the bike fits fault for not putting the seat further forward, or the athletes fault for creeping forward for whatever reason?"


Maybe during a bike fit we just tend to think too much about how we should look during a bike fit rather than just "sending it" like on the road.

That said, I generally find that for reasons I haven't thought much about, TT position on a trainer just feels different to me than it does on the road. I don't like going off the nose on the stationary trainer except on *really* hard efforts. And I'm just not anywhere near as comfortable in the TT position on a trainer as on the road (exact same bike). That could just be me, though.
Last edited by: trail: Feb 24, 21 17:32
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
MitchMcG wrote:
This may sound odd, but i think he fell off the saddle, or his saddle broke. That is pretty much exactly what would happen on a TT Bike if your saddle failed or you simply slide off the front


I downloaded the Eurosport coverage, and "falling off the saddle" is my best guess. I think he was so far up on the nose and pushing so hard that the saddle slipped to the left right when he was putting down force with his left leg. Everything on the bike looked fine post-crash.

i like the falling off the saddle idea. though, I feel like the first thing I see is the crank slippage, or whatever happens to his left leg it's tough to tell from the camera angle. I think something broke which caused that quick movement with the left leg - and THAT caused him to fall off the saddle. I don't buy any of this sand/wind business. i also don't buy that a pro cyclist would just fall off the saddle. it's possible, but seems a little far fetched. i think something broke which caused him to fall off, and that falling off then caused the crash. chain slippage, cassette came loose, shoe/cleat/saddle rail failed.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [ In reply to ]
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To me, personally, it 100% looked like he went to put out power and the drivetrain said "nope". Not sure if it was a free spin situation or a jam. But I've forgotten to shift to a faster gear before hammering again before just to freewheel and lunge forward on the bike and have the rear wheel dance a bit.

Especially maybe starting to hammer him coming after that last turn there gearing up for the finish line.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [PBT_2009] [ In reply to ]
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PBT_2009 wrote:
I think something broke which caused that quick movement with the left leg - and THAT caused him to fall off the saddle.

It looks like the rear of the bike and his butt are going in different directions well before his leg does anything funny... a few milliseconds at least. What you'd expect to see if there was slippage is very sudden downward leg motion (first)... and I'm not seeing it. The chain didn't break, and the cranks, pedals, bars, and the whole bike look fine afterwards.

I think it's a combination of riding the nose, extreme fatigue, sprinting for the line... and maybe a gust of wind. He's a pro but only 19 and I'm sure he wanted to impress with a good time here.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
PBT_2009 wrote:
I think something broke which caused that quick movement with the left leg - and THAT caused him to fall off the saddle.


It looks like the rear of the bike and his butt are going in different directions well before his leg does anything funny... a few milliseconds at least. What you'd expect to see if there was slippage is very sudden downward leg motion (first)... and I'm not seeing it. The chain didn't break, and the cranks, pedals, bars, and the whole bike look fine afterwards.

I think it's a combination of riding the nose, extreme fatigue, sprinting for the line... and maybe a gust of wind. He's a pro but only 19 and I'm sure he wanted to impress with a good time here.

Did they resolve root cause on this?
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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No and they won’t ever announce it publicly anyways. It was already resolved that the bike had “no issues”.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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No, Trek Segafredo never released anything further. They promised info but nothing, much like during the Quinn Simmons ridiculous saga last fall. BTW there’s a great read on CN about QS and what really happened, I feel for they guy and I’m a liberal. Anyway back to Antonio, my best guess is the chain came off causing the left leg to push in an unbalanced fashion. They only other plausible theory is he blacked out due to exertion but I’ve never heard of that in a modern era pro cyclist.

Still waiting on the cause of the Dygert crash as well. I’m in a profession which values accident analysis and I hate to see these accidents quasi covered up.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [J7] [ In reply to ]
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I was involved with Aircraft flight safety and crash investigations when assigned to them in my first career, so its in our DNA to get to root cause and figure out where it was pilot error and where it was mechanical/electrical/computing failure.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [J7] [ In reply to ]
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J7 wrote:

Still waiting on the cause of the Dygert crash as well.

Don't know the exact source, but I read somewhere that Dygert and her team just said she came in too hot and lost control. I don't think there's any mystery on that one...unlike this one where it's a guy going in a straight line.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Did they resolve root cause on this?

Just thought of something else regarding the "slippage" theory (sudden loss of resistance for whatever reason).

He's pushing down hard with his left leg... if resistance disappears, isn't his body going to suddenly jerk left, and his bike move right? But it doesn't... the saddle of his bike goes left and his body moves in the opposite direction.

I'm sticking with him loosing contact with the saddle. You need to remember these guys have very high pedal force to weight ratios in a scenario like this... so high that his weight on the saddle is ~zero. He's sprinting for the line in a seated position, with hardly any weight on the saddle, and on the very extreme tip. It would take very little disturbance for the saddle to slide out from under him.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I heard from someone that should know that it was something with the front rim. Not immediately obvious something is wrong with it, but you can't see details of the wheel on the footage either. Wouldn't be the first time with that wheel. Guess we'll know soon enough whether they continue to use that wheel or not.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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That's interesting... but the wheel never does anything odd that I can see. It's a rim-brake wheel and it looks straight and is spinning freely after the crash as well. In order to cause that sudden movement and loss of control, you'd think a noticeable failure would be necessary.

On the close-up slo-mo the saddle moving to the left relative to his butt appears to be the first thing that happens. In the other view, the front wheel and bars at that point are straight and in line with the rest of the bike.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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On this footage, we clearly see the front rim suddenly "get soft" (crack, bend, whatever...), then the rider starts "wobbling", a fraction second after, the front rim "snaps", the bike swings, and the rider is down.


https://twitter.com/OutOfCycling/status/1363820836352897032


We don't see the same images on the youtube video...
Makes someone think about video "editing" or touch up...

About material failures and big companies:
I remember when Mavic first brought their R-Sys wheeks on the market. Lots of videos of cyclists suddenly hit the ground because of exploding wheels, but I guess Mavic's lawyers were all over this bad publicity, and the vids dissapeared...

Louis :-)
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [J7] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think there is much more to say about the Dygert crash, pilot error 100%. OTOH, the protective barrier was in the completely wrong place; it should've been further down around the right turn.
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Re: UAE TT Crash at finish line\ [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t see what you are seeing in the front wheel when I see this video
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