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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:

In regards to higher hands, one thing I have taken away from talking with Eric, and having Dan analyze what it is we are trying to accomplish, is that our angles remain ~90º. Which is something that Dan has found athletes to gravitate to for comfort and support over the long haul. Your Chief Engineer has a larger angle than that and I wonder how sustainable your athletes have found that larger angle over multiple hours? e.g. during 12 hour TTs or IM


We have a team rider who won the national 24hr TT championships in the UK in 2018, the position he used was this (this was his last aero test session before the race):



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wow this is a long winded way to ask a question....Does AeroCoach raise hands with no further changes or are the high hands a result of a positional change in terms of pad stack/reach?


It depends on the rider. Certainly when you're working under UCI regulations you're often limited by reach so raising only the hands helps to get the elbows further forwards for increased "reach", which is why high hands is popular for UCI when you come up against the 75/80cm reach rule.

During a test session we can very easily isolate higher hands + extra reach or higher hands only, and do both if necessary.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
Last edited by: Xavier: Mar 20, 19 16:25
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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
What % of folks do not reduce their drag by "turtling" / shrugging / whatever term you use. Any? I ask because in my (obviously much more limited) experience that's the "big" gain in most people's tunnel data. The problem is, "turtling" generally isn't natural and unsustainable from the position they are in.

*if* it's a net gain across the board, doesn't that mean that, especially outside of formal testing, we just put our cockpit in a position that puts the head in a "natural" turtle and make everything else a compromise to that end? (if need be)

Me, for one! Pulling my shoulders in makes me slower and head position (when not super high) makes no difference, in fact there's no difference in CdA between these two head positions:





In terms of clients we have had riders make no improvements from tucking in very tight but it is rare. The thing to avoid is pulling your shoulders in and your head shooting upwards which usually doesn't help. Head position is absolutely critical for the vast majority of rides as you mention, and something that we address at the very beginning of a test session to see what body positional changes we'll need to make to accommodate the best head position for that rider.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Xavier wrote:




Rocking the P4 and a standard side pull front brake? Don't tell me you like stopping.

Xavier wrote:

In terms of clients we have had riders make no improvements from tucking in very tight but it is rare. The thing to avoid is pulling your shoulders in and your head shooting upwards which usually doesn't help. Head position is absolutely critical for the vast majority of rides as you mention, and something that we address at the very beginning of a test session to see what body positional changes we'll need to make to accommodate the best head position for that rider.


I think this is the best generalization one can make without testing. But geez, $625 (an hour at DesertDude's Aerocamp) to validate the position and choose a helmet that works seems like a no brainer....er, wait...that's exactly what I did. ;)

My YouTubes

Last edited by: LAI: Mar 21, 19 5:49
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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
Rocking the P4 and a standard side pull front brake? Don't tell me you like stopping.

I did once lose a TT because of braking. I lost by 2 seconds to Thurlow Rogers. Played it back on Strava to see where he went faster, and that entire 2 seconds was because he braked later into a sharp turn, and exited faster. Most of that was skill rather than equipment, probably, but ever since then I have taken brakes a little more seriously.
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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [trail] [ In reply to ]
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No doubt. Even something like a fast course with little technical aspects you can gain several seconds by late braking, staying aero through a turn, or just being ballsy enough to carry more speed through a corner. Still won't see me buying a disc brake TT bike! ;P


trail wrote:
LAI wrote:

Rocking the P4 and a standard side pull front brake? Don't tell me you like stopping.


I did once lose a TT because of braking. I lost by 2 seconds to Thurlow Rogers. Played it back on Strava to see where he went faster, and that entire 2 seconds was because he braked later into a sharp turn, and exited faster. Most of that was skill rather than equipment, probably, but ever since then I have taken brakes a little more seriously.

My YouTubes

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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [Xavier] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I suppose one way to look at it is that you don't have to sweat being uncomfortable shrugging and have less to worry about halfway through a race when you start getting tired.
On the other hand you don't get that nice drop in drag


Maybe shoulder/back size has some impact on head position?

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:

I think this is the best generalization one can make without testing. But geez, $625 (an hour at DesertDude's Aerocamp) to validate the position and choose a helmet that works seems like a no brainer....er, wait...that's exactly what I did. ;)

The problem I always seem to have is validating, then trying something completely different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't that the truth! I already might or might not have made a change since last month. ;)


Morelock wrote:
LAI wrote:


I think this is the best generalization one can make without testing. But geez, $625 (an hour at DesertDude's Aerocamp) to validate the position and choose a helmet that works seems like a no brainer....er, wait...that's exactly what I did. ;)


The problem I always seem to have is validating, then trying something completely different ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My YouTubes

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Re: The Definitive Discussion as to the Benefit of High Hands [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
Rocking the P4 and a standard side pull front brake? Don't tell me you like stopping.

Prep for a UCI race which needed a bit of hanging off the brakes, it was more aero when I swapped to an aero brake. Certainly for most UK races you don’t need to worry, and I ride a fixed gear TT bike a fair amount of the time with just the one front brake on.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk
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