Voter turnout tells us all we need to know about people's confidence in finding someone they trust and someone that represents them.

"Libertarians are another form of a political party. Their main problem is their views are too far out of the mainstream. "

See, that bothers me. Why? Because Libertarians want the government ran as it was written to run. It's weird that those that want the constitution followed (not just praised) are veiwed as "out of touch". It reminds me of how some Christians feel that the Bible doesn't apply, b/c it's a different time. So, they change their interpretation of the text to fit how they want to live, and eventually live in an opposite way than intended.

"Mainstream" will get further away from the intended behavior until it gradually becomes something completely different. The good news is that I'll likely be gone by then. The bad news is that my son likely will not. His America will be totally different than my America which is totally different than Jefferson's America. I guess that's how it goes, with nothing being intended to last for very long. I look at the ideas in the Constitution and see them as truths. Truths do not change, but they can be ignored.

----------------------

The case could be made that the media selects our president. Yeah, I know the "voters do", but does anyone really believe that? Does anyone really believe that the voters look at the issues item by item and compare them with the ideas/solutions of other candidates, or do the voters just vote for the guy with the most effective smear campaign toward the other guy? Do media networks back one candidate and slant their coverage towards programs/opinions that favor one candidate and discredit another? Do media programs outright neglect some candidates? Sure we have "choice", but what we don't have is "informed choice".

A person shouldn't have to look high and low for information that would help them fmake an informed decision. But, that is what we have.

Again, we can boast to the world how great this system is, but I'm not seeing it. There is very little than is more sacred than our right to vote. Yet, very few with influence seem inspired to protect that, very few that vote seem interested enough to vote or do research, and the influential are content to use all means to their advantage. Freedom requires responsibility all all levels.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"...corporate giveaways/welfare are seldom on your collective radar screen."

I would disagree, and if one were to be intellectually honest about it, and research corporate welfare, one would find that Republicans (supposed conservatives) and Democrats (supposed liberals) have BOTH supported SIGNIFICANT amounts of the above--in the name of VOTES!!! Let's strip it all away. I'm for (eliminating) it. I disagreed wholeheartedly when George Bush levied the big steel tariffs. I think it was one of the major reasons the economy never got going after the recession ended. Others (just a few I can think of): Farm subsidies including price supports on sugar, ANY import tariff (which are basically reasons for US industries not to have to be competitive), home mortgage tax exemption, forced Pentagon spending by Congress for stuff they don't even want (i.e., C-130s made in Georgia), etc., etc., etc. Look up who voted for this stuff--you'll find plenty of blame on both sides of the aisle. Why? Votes. votes, votes.

And, if you look further, you'll find that big business really favors neither Democrats or Republicans with their campaign contributions. Why? They donate to whoever is in power. Donating to those out of power would be a waste of their money.

I'm glad you took time to reply to that...but you shouldn't have had to. As usual, someone who has no concept of what happens on a day-to-day basis is railing a teacher (jealous of our 'easy' schedule, I'm sure).

---

Wishin' wont. Work will.

My typical "easy " schedule.

5:15am -- wake up, shower, shave, dress, etc

5:45 -- eat

6:00 -- wake up son (wife leaves for 1 hour commute), dress him, feed him, etc

6:30 watch Stanley with my son. Sitting on lap, hugging, a few kissies, etc.

6:50 -- drop off son, head to school

7:00 -- enter grades into PC, get stuff ready for the day

8:00-2:45: teach

3-4 -- swim or strength train

4-5:30 bike or run

5:30 -- fix dinner, eat w/ family

6:30 play with son, throw in some laundry, check the net, etc

8:30 throw son in the bath, PJ's, lay him down, read a story, etc (wife too)

9:30 -- Midnight start doing school stuff. Typing outlines, making note-taking guides (professional quality ... I could sell these babies), making power point presentations, scanning pictures, scanning pictures from ACT prep tests to include in the homework and chapter tests (everything comes down to the state test you know). Usually get done at 12am with some internet posting in between. repeat.

When I'm done with that I iron a shirt and slacks, pick out a tie, lay out my socks, underwear, undershirt, etc. Then I pack all my training stuff for the next day, take it out to the car.

Then, I pack my lunch, and post workout drink for the ride home.

I usually get 5 hours of sleep a night and then 8-9 on Saturdays.

People ask me "Did you see such-n-such on TV last night?". No. "What were you doing?". Stuff.

I do it that way b/c I do it right. I don't half-ass stuff. When I get to that point, it's time to leave the profession. I know very few teachers that half-ass anything. Why? Because you half-ass one thing and the crap you get from that one mistake is blown completely out of proportion (never happened to me, thank God). I think people look at teacher's as if we were priests, where our whole life is dedicated to the classroom.

How nice it would be to have a job where at 5pm, you're done till the next day. Sometimes it seems that June, July, and August don't make up for Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, and May. We seem to get a 3-day weekend right as burnout approaches. I appreciate that.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

The rich do not pay their "fair share" and here's why:

At the end of the day, even after the millions of dollars the rich pay each year in taxes, they are still in a position that allows them to live lives that most of us will never know. Paying $12 million in taxes means that this guy still made $18 million? Boo hoo.

In addition, the people who work in the companies that make the money for these fat cats are given just enough in wage, benefits, etc. to get a foothold on the american dream. But at the end of the day, the taxes they pay -- while relatively proportionate (percentage-wise) to the taxes the rich pay -- drastically changes the way these people live their lives. A family making, say, 75K pays at least 10-15K intaxes. That's money that could be used to pay for Johnny's college, or invested toward retirement. While I'm sure the majority of middle income families feel that they should pay their fair share in taxes, a significant easing of the tax burden for middle income families would improve their quality of life and create new wealth and prosperity in this sector of the country. In addition, many middle income and lower income wage earners are not able to take advantage of all the nifty loopholes that the wealthy get to enjoy.

In return for inheriting, or earning wealth, the rich should be obligated to pay more than what we are calling their "fair share" because they have advantages and benefits that either through hard work or otherwise have enabled them to attain fortune beyond what they could possibily consume. The system they use to amass their wealth offers benefits that far exceed the need to go on welfare, food stamps, or unemployment. They are members of an aristocracy of wealth which has advantage beyond what most Americans can comprehend.

When all is said and done, the "middle class" as a group is still left with the stinky end of the stick. As a group they shoulder the majority of the tax burden and because their earnings disqualify them from taking advantage of many government programs, they are in essence, left to fend for themselves. The Bush tax cuts placed an exclamation point on this statement. The wealthy, again got a four-course tax break feast, while the middle class were thrown a couple of crumbs.

Sorry, had to get that out ... anyone got any feed back on Guru time trial bikes?

---

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





No sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter!

Interesting.

People complain about rich folks, but no one complains about how hard or how much sacrifice goes into building wealth. The idea that most millionaires inheritied is bogus. People that have money do so b/c they are smarter than you, work harder than you, and made more sacrifices than you. I wish I could say that more gently, but there's no other way to say it. I know a fair amount of rich folks, and to say that they earned every penny is an understatement.

I don't see where it's their job to pay for people that are not willing to put forth the same work ethic and sacrifice. Yeah, I worked as a supervisor in the marketing field while I was getting a pre-med degree (before teaching). I know how hard a good deal of people work. I also suspect many here are posting from work on comany time. Ooops, did I say that?

Having those that earned wealth pay for those that did not is completely anti-american. It is the foundation of socialism and communism.

Ironically, I would bet that most "millionaires" did so by investing (usually into 401's or the like) money that other fmailies "waste" on crap they don't need. People would be amazed at how easy it is to become a millionaire by investing into retirement plans, etc ... and buying all the stuff you "just have to have". really.

It's time to get off your ass and let some blood flow to your brain. Instead of complaining about the rich, why not put that energy into "doing what they do"(Bro, it ain't easy), so you don't feel they should piggy-back everyone else through life.

People have more money than you because they are willing to work harder than you. They also invest money that you waste. It really is as simple as that. To say differently is to set people up with a built-in excuse to accept mediocrity.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"As a group they (middle class) shoulder the majority of the tax burden..."

That statement is not true. Here are the facts:

Summary of Federal Individual Income Tax Data, 2001

Number of Returns
(000)

AGI
($000,000)

Income Taxes Paid
($000,000)

Group's Share of Total AGI

Group's Share of Income Taxes

Income Split Point

Average Tax Rate

All Taxpayers 128,817 6,241,036 887,682 100.0% 100.0% 14.2% Top 1% 1,288 1,094,296 300,898 17.5% 33.9% above $ 292,913

27.5% Top 5% 6,441 1,996,492 472,823 32.0% 53.3% above $ 127,904 23.7% Top 10% 12,882 2,690,589 576,163 43.1% 64.9% above $ 92,754 21.4% Top 25% 32,204 4,071,034 736,053 65.2% 82.9% above $ 56,085 18.1% Top 50% 64,409 5,379,286 852,642 86.2% 96.1% above $ 28,528 15.9% Bottom 50% 64,409 861,750 35,040 13.8% 3.9% below $ 28,528 4.1%

Source: IRS

As you can see, the top 5% of earners pay 53% of all income taxes. The bottom 50% pay just 4%. The "rich" are clearly getting socked.

As someone who has worked hard from age 5 to climb out of my family's lower-middle class background, I strongly oppose the tax penalties you would impose on the rich. Just as in triathlon, in capitalism I have the opportunity to work hard, achieve objective measures of success, and earn rewards appropriate for those efforts. The rewards - a great education, professional advancement, wealth - justify the sacrifices I've made throughout life. Without those rewards, I make fewer sacrifices, and you and the rest of society suffer.

How does society suffer if the rich - and the millions who aspire to be - stop giving their best? Many ways. 1) Those like me create successful companies, products, and jobs, from which all classes of society benefit. 2) We pay for most of the government services that you and everyone else enjoy. 3) We inspire others to do the same, i.e. work hard to achieve their dreams.

Tax the rich at what you might call a "fair share" rate (say, >40%), and guess what they'll do: stop working. They stop working, and per TT's example, no one's left to pay 80% of the taxes. No one's left to found companies, innovate, and employ. If you think high tax rates and economic innovation coexist naturally, then check out the relative GDP per capita on a purchasing power basis between the U.S. and major European countries. The only country that is close to the U.S. is Switzerland - the country with the lowest tax rates.

At the end of the day, the rich can retire at 40 or 70. Tax them too much, and they retire at 40. Tax them fairly, and they'll keep working, building, employing, and paying taxes. That's what makes all of us prosper. I don't subscribe to everything in it, but Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged makes this point persuasively. All Americans should read it; most who have (including my non-conservative friends) consider it the most thought-provoking book, perhaps excluding the Bible, that they've ever read.

People should consider what would happen if the rich "took their money and left". Seriously. If we get so dependent on the rich folks paying for stuff because the "payees" are not willing to make any sacrifices to handle their business ... we'll be in a world of hurt.

The above scenario is not impossible. Many countries would be more than happy to have wealthy Americans join their country and insert said money into their banks, where they can use it to invest and make money. Money is welcome everywhere.

I guess I just know too many folks (educated and not) that have started at owning one business and turned it into 10+. One guy, recently retired, started out with one gas station and turned it into many. He gave his kids the option of running the business, or selling it. They sold it for 98 million, and each son (I went to HS with these guys) is starting their own business (Those in Illinois, know this as GB Oil). I have very little doubt each son will quadruple their money. They don't tolerate failure or mediocrity and work their rear's off to ensure neither occurs.

My greatest fear is that when we die, we will have our potential revealed to us. We'll know just how much of ourselves we wasted.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Nice story about your dad, (which you seem to have removed) I'm glad you use it as a source of inspiration.



However, in my post, I was very careful not to bring in specifics of my life, or direct my feelings directly toward you. The intent was to illustrate my point using generic examples mentioned in previous posts. You assumption that I was speaking about myself, and your pointed attack towards me was, in my humble opinion unjustified.



As an endurance athlete and one who aspires to give my family a better life, I am acutely aware that life is friggin hard. Unfortunately, in life, unlike triathlon, hard work does not always equate to success. For every story of the guy who works hard and gets what he deserves, there are scores of others who never get (or are able to seize) opportunities to grab that brass ring. If this weren't the case, everyone who worked their ass off would be a millionaire.



Your assertion that I and others who bring up points about middle income tax burdens are looking for a free ride, or not working hard enough is completely bogus. Like you, I have worked hard to get where I am and will continue to do so in order to improve my life.



But for the wealthy to chant the "we work harder than everyone else" mantra is just a circle jerk of rationalization. The top 1% do pay a lot of the total tax burden. But guess what? Their tax burden is in no way infringing on their lifestyle. And increasing their rate while easing the burden on those aspiring (and working hard) to give themselves and their families a better life could only promote investment, savings and as a result assist in producing new wealth.



As for the tables you posted, they prove my point as well. Adjusted Gross Income Shares of those who fall between 10% and 50% of top earners shoulder about 52% of the tax burden. And that is excluding the top 5%, or 6,440,00 taxpayers.



From what I was able to find, there are about 2,500,000 "millionaires" in the U.S., so the top 5% also includes a majority of people who fall below "millionaire" status. While well-off, the majority of the folks in the top 5% probably wouldn't qualify as rich.



Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to work so I can earn money to foolishly squander on food and shelter. :-)

---

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





No sidewindin bushwackin, hornswaglin, cracker croaker is gonna rouin me bishen cutter!

Like the current meatpacking industry, which goes to Mexico, and for its slaughter houses buses in untrained workers, who are vying for relatively few, low skill jobs.



Like the employees at Wal-Mart, who if they don't like it can go work for the local competitor. Oh, wait, Wal-Mart drove them out of business, so there are no alternative employers, and Wal-Mart can feel free to lock them in at night.



Like the management at the high-tech companies, who are desperately trying everything they can to retain their highly skilled, experienced employees. Oh, wait, no they aren't, they are busy firing people and off-shoring their positions to low-wage foreign workers.

Good points, all.

In our current society, with high unemployment (if you count the people who have given up looking for jobs, and those who have lost high-paying jobs and have taken low-wage jobs (like my programmer friend who now works at Home Depot)), the employers will take advantage of employees to any extent they can. Count on it.

Get real.

Ken Lehner

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

I removed the story of my dad b/c it was just filler. FWIW, it was a story of a man (non-intellectual) that worked himself through chirporactic college while having a wife, and 2 young kids. He made it through, b/c he worked his rear off. He eventually owned 3 large clinics, through hard work.

You assumption that I was speaking about myself, and your pointed attack towards me was, in my humble opinion unjustified.

My comments were directed toward the idea of "who cares if the rich 30-million dollar man pays 12 million bucks, he still has 18 million left". That's not right.

Unfortunately, in life, unlike triathlon, hard work does not always equate to success. For every story of the guy who works hard and gets what he deserves, there are scores of others who never get (or are able to seize) opportunities to grab that brass ring. If this weren't the case, everyone who worked their ass off would be a millionaire.

True enough. There are essentially two types of workers, [1] those that make others wealthy, [2] those that make themselves wealthy.

I was speaking of type #2. If you're working for someone else, you'll likely not be wealthy. Eventually, people get tired of "doing someone else's work" and branch out on their own.

---------------------------------------

I realize that many people (like me) work hard and will never be wealthy. That wasn't my point. My point was that very few get wealthy without working hard and taking risks that very few will not take (both financial and time-constraints).

-------------------------------------

It's been my experience that those self-made rich folks are willing to go the extra mile when other hard working folks draw a line they will not cross. There are trade-offs for these choices. Less time for hobbies and family for one.

So, no my comments were no personal attacks on you, but rather harsh comments towards the idea that the rich don't pay enough.

My opinion on taxes is that it is quite literally taking money, that was earned, from one person and giving it to another. I'm for pepople taking care of themselves. Sometimes that requires sacrifice, and that's not a popular idea. we sometimes speak of the rich as if they are not really people, but rather faceless pots of money. I don't agree with that.

The folks I know that are wealthy (worth 1 million or more up to 100 million) are [1] hard working, [2] very intelligent, [3] wise investors, and [4] somewhat risk takers. They wouldn't be exactly what I would call great parents either, but like I said, choices must be made and there are pros and cons for each choice.

-----------------------------------

3Sport, I hope you can see the difference between attacking an idea, and attacking a person. It's hard to differentiate the two on the internet ... I know.

My comments of wealthy are "smarter than you, harder working than you, etc" is directed to those that start getting ready to go home :30 befor quitting time, sneak breaks, take a longer lunch, do the minimum, wanted to have more fun than get good grades in college, and then complain that the rich "have everything and don't pay enough". Unfortunately, I know too many of those folks.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

As for the tables you posted, they prove my point as well. Adjusted Gross Income Shares of those who fall between 10% and 50% of top earners shoulder about 52% of the tax burden.

Actually, those who fall in the 10-50% income brackets pay about 31% of all federal income taxes. The table didn't come out formatted, so it's hard to interpret the numbers, but that's what they are. In sum, bottom 50% of wage earners pay 4% of all taxes, and the top 20% pay 80%.

The part of your post that I would challenge is the argument that taxes don't infringe on the lifestyles of the rich. On what basis, other than pure assertion, can you argue that? Who are you to decide what someone else's lifestyle should be? How can paying hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars to the government NOT impact how you live, what you leave for your children, what causes you support, and/or what businesses you invest in? Whether motivated by a sense of fairness, bitterness, or jealously, you don't have the right in this country to pass judgements on others and steal / tax their money just because you think they have too good of a lifestyle relative to you. Our government was founded to protect "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", not equality of outcome. If you prefer the latter, then go to Europe, where you'll find that the same work you're doing today, here, pays you considerably less.

Walmart type employees can go to grocery stores, K-Mart, Target, CVS, Lowell's, Home Depot, or any other "customer service", "shelf-stocking" type place. Wal-Mart type employees are not specialists.

The other comapnies that wal-mart beat out should have done a better job at keeping prices low and service high. Yes, I used to work at a locally owned hardware store. There prices were much higher than Wal-Mart's and they usually had to "special order" anything remotely unique. Who wants to wait 10 days to overpay for a product? The natural selection of business.

2. The PC Tech industry is flooded with people. Too many. we (students) were always told, there's jobs in computers. Well, programming, etc became more streamlined which requires less workforce and everyone and their sister went "into computers". It happens. It's efficiency. We have virtually zero work force due to robotics and machinery. were companies suppossed to stay less efficient?, which leads to higher cost, which leads to pepole not wanting their product, which leads to closure.

we owe unions a great deal of respect in this country. If it weren't for them, who knows what we'd be doing. But, we go too far. Rather than just getting "respectable wages, benefits, etc" ... we get "everything we can". Then when someone else comes along and offers to do the same job for less, we're shocked when we're replaced. [The moving of jobs out of the country is not something I am for, but it appears in our global market, that it is something that's here to stay. Unfortuante]

Sometimes I think we, as American workers, feel that companies owe us a certain lifestyle. we won't work for "under $XX,XXX", or we won't work without having insurance paid for, etc. One certainly cannot blame a company for looking to where it can decrease overhead.

We also have quite a few folks that won't work certain jobs that are "beneath them", they would rather collect unemployment (i.e. live off someone's else earned money).

Just my opinions. Nothing more. Nothing less.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --