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If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before ....
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I simply could not resist the urge to start a thread that started with "If you hated ...". Before you know it, it'll be a regulation of the board. "One must start each thread with 'If you hated ....' " *wink*

I always hear folks complain about rich peopple getting all the tax breaks, etc. I teach at a public school where republicans (and especially libertarians) are viewed as slightly higher than slugs with salt on them.

Anyway, here is a story that was passed onto me awhile ago that explains why the wealthy get more out of tax cuts than others. It also explains why we "need the wealty" ... something that I wonder how many realise.

Enjoy. Pass it on.

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The Wealthy and Paying Taxes





Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing
The fifth would pay $1
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh $7
The eighth $12
The ninth $18
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his"fair share?"

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being "paid" to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings)
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings)
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings)
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings)
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings)
The tenth now paid $49 instead $59 (16% savings)

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

This is why people who pay the most taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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You're teaching our kids? Learn how to spell...

1. There is no free lunch.

2. Your inane little nugget of wisdom fails to mention the distribution of income in the US.

3. The republicans are spending like drunken sailors at the federal level and the kids you're teaching will have to pay for it.
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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"You're teaching our kids? Learn how to spell... "

No oHffense but dats a purty low bloh. The biggest problem in our education system is not the teachers...

While there is an uneven distribution of wealth, the top 10% also help to create the majority of jobs for the other 90%. I have never been a big fan of trickle down economics there is some validity in it. People with the greatest wealth shouldn't be penalized for it but rather encouraged to re-invest it. By assessing unfair taxes (not just income taxes) that often act as penalties it discourages further investing. The problem with the Bush administration is in giving tax breaks and continuing to spend like fiends.
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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"the distribution of income in the US."?

What's next? "The struggle of class against class is a political struggle" or "The workers control the means of production" or "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" or (insert you own favorite Marxist screed here).

Last I checked, in a free-market economy, income is distributed by how much sweat and brains one brings to the marketplace.

But yes, the Republicans are foolishly starting to spend money like drunken sailors, but they're pitiful amateurs compared to the other side's last 40 years.

In any case it's not fair to compare them to drunken sailors. Drunken sailors spend their own money...
b

"What's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded."
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [gj] [ In reply to ]
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"I have never been a big fan of trickle down economics there is some validity in it. People with the greatest wealth shouldn't be penalized for it but rather encouraged to re-invest it."

Good point... it just that most tax payers are almost always biased toward self-centered perspectives. And, from that perspective no one can truely determine who is trickled on and who is the tricklee'. IMH, I think everyone gets splashed on no matter what your pecking order is in the economic world of trickling.

FWIW Joe Moya
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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You're teaching our kids? Learn how to spell...

Spelling isn't the problem, it's that I'm usually typing very fast (and with a 2-year old in Batman PJ's w/ cape climbing all over me, etc).

Suffice to say, when I am making materials for students and presentations, etc ... I do spellcheck and proofread. I don't do this on the internet b/c it's not worth the time invested. I guess I never really figured people were making assumptions and judgements based on my spelling and typos.

Please don't judge my teaching by my spelling and grammer on a triathlon message board.

I realize you were likely joking or poking fun ... which I accept ... I have it coming. I just want to point out to others that how I spell on a non-education message board is not indicitive of how I do things in a formal setting.

Also ... I don't teach history/econ/gov't, etc ... I'm a science (Physical Science & Bio) guy. We stick to the facts (not opinion) in class.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Quick note about income and taxes ...

In Illinois we are learning that higher taxes and decreasing benefits for increasing income leads to a lack of interest in "moving up" on the pay scale. (i.e., encourages unemployment)

For example, I pay $125 a week for my son to go to a nice childcare provider (it's almost like preschool from birth, etc). There are folks who pay $1 for the same care since they make less. If they got a job and moved up the income ladder, they would lose the $1 a week fee (pay $125/week ... possibly lose food stamps, etc)) and actually make less net pay than if they stayed unemployed.

Those that pay for college classes (Masters, etc) to earn pay increases do so out of their own pocket. In other words, we take a monetary loss this year, so that in 10 years we make more money. Few people do this, and some simply cannot afford to do this (those that live paycheck to paycheck).

In quite a few cases, people are punished (in terms of money) for moving up the income ladder. People know this, and take advantage of being unemployed. The state has looked into limiting how long a family can receive "low income" benefits before having to try and be self-sufficient.

Obviously, those with more money pay for the unemployed to stay home and enjoy some of the same benefits (such as equal child care) for a fraction of the cost. I, personally, do not see how this is fair.

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=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [bobo] [ In reply to ]
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"What's next? "The struggle of class against class is a political struggle" or "The workers control the means of production" or "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" or (insert you own favorite Marxist screed here). "

Damn, bobo. You beat me to it.

"There is no free lunch."

I forgot that Welfare was reserved for the hard working segment of our society.

"The republicans are spending like drunken sailors at the federal level and the kids you're teaching will have to pay for it."

Come to California, Einstein. (Yes, I know you wrote "federal level") I'll never understand any of you people who point fingers at the "Republicans" or the "Democrats" as the source of the problem. You're completely f-ing blind if you don't see that they're all the f-ing same self-serving bunch of shit. WHY IS EVERYONE SO WILLING TO THROW AWAY INDEPENDENT THOUGHT IN FAVOR OF TOWING SOME ABSURD PARTY LINE?? Sorry, gotta go, the shepard is calling...
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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"There is no free lunch"

Unfortunately this is not a true statement BECAUSE of our current tax system. Tell me why I would work my ass off to make say $75,000, when after taxes, I'm going to net the same amount of money as someone making $60,000? Where is the incentive to excel? The person making $60,000 is getting a $15,000 free lunch all else being equal.

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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i teach at a school where 50% of the students get free lunch and free breakfeast, and, they all have 60.00/month cell phone plans. the taxes from their cell phones pay for the free food....there is no such thing as a free lunch!
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [bobo] [ In reply to ]
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"Last I checked, in a free-market economy, income is distributed by how much sweat and brains one brings to the marketplace."

Yeah right - the vast majority of the wealth (and, by default, income) in this society is inherited not earned outright by 'sweat and brains.' So bobo, you're right. As much as you and your conservative fellow travelers hate to admit it, we do have a stratified class system in this country.

Some individuals do indeed create new wealth through innovation and hard work but others use their smarts to game the system like the boys of Enron, etc. Are you willing to make this distinction or is either wealth creation strategy equally valid since 'sweat and brains' were involved?

Tinman
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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Even if the majority of wealth is inherited today, SOMEBODY worked to create that wealth. And that person probably paid more taxes than what we pay today while they were living. Oh, and then they paid taxes again on that same "after-tax" money when they left it to the kids. It was probably all the taxes that killed the person...

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Yeah right - the vast majority of the wealth (and, by default, income) in this society is inherited not earned outright by 'sweat and brains.'


What in the world is your basis for this claim? This statement is patently false. Consider the number of people in the U.S. who have a net worth of more than 1 million dollars compared to the number of millionaires twenty years ago. There are vastly more of them than you'd probably guess, and they are not always who you expect. They are for the most part, conservative (lifestyle, not politics) people who have worked hard, saved diligently, and invested wisely. I challenge you to show any evidence to support your claim (and Paris Hilton does not represent the 'vast majority' :) ).



On the other hand, if you want to consider some of the richest Americans, let’s do that.



1. Bill Gates: college dropout, built Microsoft from the ground up; didn't inherit anything, but has created an enormous amount of wealth for himself and many others.

2. Warren Buffet: Berkshire Hathaway used his investment skills to build his fortune.

3. The Walton family: Yes this money is inherited. From their father, who built what I would argue is one of the most successful and innovative businesses in history - Wal Mart. The families are involved in business in one form or another, and are also HUGE philanthropists. Among other things, they gave the U. of Arkansas $300 million!

4. Larry Ellison: founder of Oracle.

5. Michael Dell: Started this company in a dorm room.



I have to go swim, or I'd sit here all day and give you examples of 'sweat and brains'. One last thought, if what you say is true, explain to me how it is possible for our economy to grow at the rate it has? If we're essentially recycling wealth, where is there room for growth? IMHO 'sweat and brains' is what built this country, and continues to make it great!



Chris
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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the dinner story is great.
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [Andy] [ In reply to ]
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Andy,

I read your post and not sure how you come up with a person making $75k having the same after tax amount as a person that make $60k. Since the tax rates are graduated the person making $75k will have more after tax dollars in his/her pocket. The additional $15k may be taxed at a higher rate but it is not taxed at 100%.

I have been doing taxes for 10 years now and it really bugs me when people say the rich do not pay their fair share of taxes.

For example, one of the clients I used to work for built up his engineering company to the point that his taxable income year in and year out was around $30,000,000. He had to pay $1,000,000 per month to the IRS. This is one person who drives one car at a time on the public highways, eats the same amount of food as one person, etc, etc, etc. That is $12,000,000 a year in federal taxes and he is not going to be using any of the public services that he is supporting. He is not going on welfare, or food stamps or unemployment. He is paying more in taxes each month then most people will earn in thier lifetime. Yet he is still only one person.

Plus he is responsible for the employment of hundreds of high paid jobs who are paying taxes as well.

Anyone who says wealthy people are not paying their fair share of taxes is just wrong. They are subsidising all of the folks who are paying little to no taxes.

Just because they have millions left over after taxes does not mean they are not paying their share.

The above example may be the extreme but most everyone I did taxes for paid hundreds of thousands of dollars each year.

Willy in Pacifica, CPA

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Willy in Pacifica
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [triiowa] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to see you called tinman on this out and out lie. Also, tinman says that welath and income are tied together--that is not necessarily true. Many older, retired people are wealthy, that is their net worth (assets minus liabilities) is high. However, their income may be relatively low because they are retired. Conversely, many young, upwardly mobile people have high incomes, but no wealth. They are spending everything they make on cars, mortgages, childrens' educations, etc. They may actually have negative net worths. My parents worked as civil servants their whole lives. They never had large incomes, and they didn't inherit a dime. Both of their fathers died while they were young. They raised four children, all of whom needed braces, bought new cars only every 7-8 years, didn't get a color TV until 1973, took peanut butter sandwiches to work every day for lunch, couldn't qualify for government loans for our education because thay had too much income, and lived in the same house for 48 years now. They are now millionaires.
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [Willy] [ In reply to ]
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Willy,

You and I are on the same side. The example I used was admittedly poor in terms of accuracy, but I was trying to make the point that the graduated tax scale takes away incentive to be more productive.

That evil person you had as a client probably never gave a cent to charity or did a thing to help those disgusting poor/less fortunate people.

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [Andy] [ In reply to ]
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Andy,

"That evil person you had as a client probably never gave a cent to charity or did a thing to help those disgusting poor/less fortunate people.

That "evil person" gave $12,000,000 to help the poor and less fortunate people. As a matter of fact, most all of my clients would have us do calculations in December to estimate how much of thier income they could give to charity to maximize the 50% charitable deduction. Then they would indeed give millions away. Most had very low basis stock from stock options that they could give away and get the FMV as a deduction. This benefited both them and the charities they either gave to or had set up themselves.

BTW, how much did you give to charity last year? Notice that I did not just come out and say you "probably never gave a cent to charity or did a thing to help those disgusting poor/less fortunate people."

Willy in Pacifica

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Willy in Pacifica
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [Willy] [ In reply to ]
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Willy,

I hope you know I was being sarcastic with the charity comment. My point being, charities survive on the donations from highly taxed corporations and wealthy individuals. Your clients are the perfect examples of the good things that wealthy people can do with their funds. Imagine how much more your clients would give if only they didn't pay a disproportionate share of the tax burden. I guess I should have put a ; ) at the end of my statement...

Andy

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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We have folks that DO NOT WORK (i.e. zero income) that receive money from the government to eat, pay rent (or have the rent paid for them), cheap child care, etc. In other words our government (really rich and middle class folks) PAY SOME POOR PEOPLE TO LIVE HERE. And then people will complain about how cushy "government jobs" are.

--------------------------------

* Sarcasm On* Gates, Walton, Dell, etc ... were all born smarter than I am and everything came easy for them. They never had to work really hard a day in their life. My father didn't hug me enough, I am ADD, my grades were bad because the teachers didn't like me, I would have played pro sports but the coaches didn't like me. I refuse to work at a gas station because that is "beneath me" and besides the boss there is an asshole. So, you're damn right the rich need to pay. Tell Gates to cut out the middle man and send the money directly to me. He's got a bunch of money he won't miss it. *Sarcasm Off*

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Having the rich pay more doesn't bother me as much as the government "paying the poor to be poor". If they stop being poor, there situation (financially) will actually be worse than it already is. So, rather than take the money away, we'll blame education, the work force, etc.

Through action the government actually encourages the people to "be poor". Some could say this is by accident, others would say it is by design. Whatever the case may be, I am against people being dependent on the government in a free country.

The poorer you are, the easier the governent makes it to "move up". If you are from a family in poverty ... you will never have to pay a cent for a college education. All you have to do is attend HS and get decent grades that will be accepted in, at least a junior college. The government (i.e. people that pay taxes) will foot the bill.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [Willy] [ In reply to ]
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"he is not going to be using any of the public services that he is supporting. He is not going on welfare, or food stamps or unemployment."

That may be true - but those services listed consume a small percentage of federal expenditures. The major expenditures are social security/medicare (38%), defense (17%), Medicaid/food stamps/etc. (14%), public health programs/unemployment/housing (7%). That's all taken right our of your 1040 Instructions, Mr. CPA.

Social security and Medicare ar both non-means-tested, so he will collect some benefits from them - though very small compared to his wealth and income level. Defense, he benefits. Roads, he benefits. National Parks, he may benefit.

While he might never go to a public health clinic, or collect Medicaid/food stamps/unemployment, or be a direct beneficiary of govt social programs, does anyone really doubt that he is an indirect beneficiary of all these programs? These programs enable him to earn the large income he does, by providing a stable pool of workers and consumers on which his business rests. Without that stability, his business could not exist. The present system has evolved over many years to address needs in the system, and I agree that it has many inefficiencies. But the rhetoric coming from the right nowadays seems to want a return to the govt of the 1800s, with few, if any regulations on big business and very low taxes. And it's based on pure greed.

I believe in a progressive tax system, simply because people at the bottom need every dollar to eat, while people at the top are purchasing a 7th vacation home - two needs that simply are not morally equivalent. And I think the right level of progressivity would have the top bracket in the low to mid 30 percent range. I would not support rates much higher than this, beacause any higher could begin to reduce incentives for individuals to earn more. But, at present tax rates, that simply does not happen.
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
We have folks that DO NOT WORK (i.e. zero income) that receive money from the government to eat, pay rent (or have the rent paid for them), cheap child care, etc. In other words our government (really rich and middle class folks) PAY SOME POOR PEOPLE TO LIVE HERE


My 82-year old mother lives in a County nursing home, where the bill is over $6,000/month. After raising 4 kids and retiring from teaching chemistry for 25 years, she has about $2,000 in assets, and under $2,000/month in pension and SS. Medicare (or is it medicaid?) is footing the bill (and taking the income). I can't afford to take care of her (that's more than my take-home pay); my oldest brother just got laid off and he couldn't help, either. My next-oldest brother is on SSI, due to severe mental disability, and lives in a group home.

What should we do with my mother? Hope that there is some charity running a reasonable nursing home?

Somewhere, I read something like "a society can be judged by how it cares for those least able to care for themselves". Today, I read that there are 300,000 children in California eligible for the state health insurance, but the state can't afford it. Similar large numbers in Florida.

Compassionate conservatism, my ass.

Ken Lehner

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [tinman] [ In reply to ]
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Do somehomework next time rather than repeat the dribble put out for the masses. Read "The millionaire next door". You will find that the vast majority of millionaires in this country are self made.

Think for yourself instead of parroting the predigested mantras of others.
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [cholla] [ In reply to ]
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"Defense, he benefits. Roads, he benefits. National Parks, he may benefit."

"While he might never go to a public health clinic, or collect Medicaid/food stamps/unemployment, or be a direct beneficiary of govt social programs, does anyone really doubt that he is an indirect beneficiary of all these programs?"

"That may be true - but those services listed consume a small percentage of federal expenditures. The major expenditures are social security/medicare (38%), defense (17%), Medicaid/food stamps/etc. (14%), public health programs/unemployment/housing (7%). That's all taken right our of your 1040 Instructions, Mr. CPA"

If so, then he is paying $12,000,000 towards those programs.

Cholla,

Of course he benefits from Roads, National Parks and defense, but he does not benefit more than another. He can only drive one car at at time and can only visit national Parks one at time like the rest of us. But he is paying $12,000,000 a year in taxes. You cannot tell me he is not paying his fair share of taxes which is what I refered to in my earlier post.

This man started his business with and idea and an engineering degree and built it up on his own to now earn $30,000,000 a year. It is not a big business it is a partnership between he and his son as the only owners. He gives more back to the system in taxes and charity in one year then I will earn in my lifetime. last I heard he drives a 10 year old Honda and lives in a modest home in the small town where he started up his business 30 plus years ago. It is probably the biggest business in a very small town as his type of business could be done anywhere but he elect to stay in this small town and help support it. He donated a large chunk of land to the community college district a few years ago and plans to give millions to help build and support it.

We estimmate he is worth close to $500,000,000. So what if he owns seven homes. What else is he going to do with half a billion dollars in his lifetime. If he owned 7 homes someoone has to build them and he agian has to pay tax on them.

My original post was in regards to the fact that rich people do indeed pay their fair share of taxes. They aslo happen to have a crap load of money left over after paying those taxes but that does not mean they are not paying their fair share. They are paying for the programs that are there for the less fortunate or lazy.

Somewhere I read that the top 10% of earners pay roughly 70% of the taxes.

Willy

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Willy in Pacifica
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Re: If you hated Republican Tax Cuts before .... [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Ken, I understand your situation. In my post I said "some" as to say not everyone receiving government benefits is/was unemployed forever.

There are not easy answers from any point of view.

As Libertarians we are dependent on the goodwill of others for us to be independent of our government as the consititution seems to employ.

On the other hand, the government taking care of what people cannot afford by themselves (and need) ain't a bad idea either. As I pointed out before, I don't see that Socialism (sharing the wealth) is an evil thing. I just keep pointing out that it's not what is written in our constitution.

I've said repeatedly, that if we are going to continue living how we are with many, many government programs which people are dependent on, we should change the language of our documents (i.e. rewrite them) and make it official. Everyone seems to want to live a socialistic lifestyle, but no one wants to say "I belive in socialism".

I grew up in an era (80s) where socialism was a dirty word, and painted as evil. Now, I live in an era where are very similar to a soclialist government ... i.e., the government provides for those that cannot, and those will likely be dependent on gov't their whole life. It's called "distributing the wealth" by some. It's socialism to me.

I already spoke my opinion where I said that I believed that people would help others. I said that I believed if we didn't have taxes in the same manner we do now, that there would not be a ton of starving, walking dead, uneducated, homeless people. I feel that the country would be better off and better ran than it is now. I have faith that people in the form of churches, local and national charities, etc would provide the same functions that government currently does (more efficiently). Or people could donate to the government and they could issue the money out. It's choice vs. non-choice

Obviously, more people think that adults are very childish and selfish at heart, and would not help their fellow man. So, by our own attitude we have lost freedom. It is gone. The part that remains will get smaller and smaller.

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People talk about freedom as being "everyone looking out for themselves". IMO, that's what we have now. People vote for who gives THEM the most stuff. That's what has lead to where we are.

Again, I am a person who by choice chose a career where I'll earn less money but make more impact (and have more fun) with young people. I am a Christian. I am compassionate, yet I will defend my beliefs with fervor. I would do what I could to ensure that my fellow Americans eat, etc. I assume others would too. I just like the idea that we do it by choice, rather than by force. It is the same option God gives us. Tells us how to live, let's us choose to or not. Choice (IMO) is a divine right, which cannot be taken away.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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