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Re: Ironman for sale? [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
Just for fun, I looked up the EBITDA for Apple ($71.5 billion in 2017). So a 15x multiple for Apple would be: $1.07 trillion or slightly more than the GDP of Canada -- the world's 10th largest economy.

Apple's market cap is $1.03 Trillion, so yeah, sounds about right.
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Re: Ironman for sale? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
bryguy wrote:
jeremyscarroll wrote:


Just for fun, I looked up the EBITDA for Apple ($71.5 billion in 2017). So a 15x multiple for Apple would be: $1.07 trillion or slightly more than the GDP of Canada -- the world's 10th largest economy.


Which is right on top of where they are today.


Apple's an unusually cash rich company. That ~trillion dollar value includes ~250 billion-with-B dollars of cash on hand. The value of Apple's operations is ~$750 billion, or something in the neighborhood of 10-11x earnings.

He's talking EBITDA though, not earnings. And they have a ton of debt as well which offsets the cash (didn't look into how much).
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Re: Ironman for sale? [jeremyscarroll] [ In reply to ]
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jeremyscarroll wrote:
goldenkidd wrote:
rrheisler wrote:
IIRC, it was precisely 15x EBITDA.

Couple this with the recent non-movement on WTC's corporate debt load and the additional properties added to the portfolio over the last 2+ years and you're looking at, in my opinion, a minimum ask of a billion (unless Wanda is simply fire-saling in order to meet the prior need). I think the IPO is off the table (which is, in my opinion, for the best -- the two most dangerous words to athlete safety is "shareholder value") so you'll need somebody who buys out of passion.

Or, you know, Warren Buffett. Because his bets on athletic stuff (looking at you, Brooks) has paid off.

Without looking at numbers, 15X enters the field of NOPEEE(unless you go for somehting like Apple), add the important debt, the uncertain growth numbers, the unstability of sponsors and right now nobody is goign to paid 980 millions.


Just for fun, I looked up the EBITDA for Apple ($71.5 billion in 2017). So a 15x multiple for Apple would be: $1.07 trillion or slightly more than the GDP of Canada -- the world's 10th largest economy.

Hang on...you're comparing AAPL market cap to GDP of Canada. You're need to compare market cap of AAPL to market cap of Canada. Anyway, back to the topic, I don't think who buys WTC materially changes our user experience. But the price for this very labour intensive biz model that scales only very manually is the big problem. They can't increase total revenue per race from racers that easily, so they have to find another way of increasing revenue per race through other mechanisms like sponsorship, tickets, licensing etc. It's like the facebook guys having to increase average revenue per user when user growth slows. At some point, you can only get so many users from so many races. So their market cap can only grow by increasing revenue off the same cost base. Unlike software, they can't add 100% margin incremental revenue unless they can generate that through sponsors and advertising....but watching triathlon is like watching paint dry and the fans are more or less the same people who already pay for race entries.

How do you expand advertising and sponsorship by winning over fans who are non racers? I have no clue. None of my friends or colleagues who are not active care about pro triathlon. They care about the World Series. I think this is the rough problem in terms of scaling WTC's valuation. Its really a pure services business model proportional to headcount and infrastructure. Investors hate services models when it comes to ability to have multiples of revenue valuations.
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Re: Ironman for sale? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Hang on...you're comparing AAPL market cap to GDP of Canada. You're need to compare market cap of AAPL to market cap of Canada. Anyway, back to the topic, I don't think who buys WTC materially changes our user experience. But the price for this very labour intensive biz model that scales only very manually is the big problem. They can't increase total revenue per race from racers that easily, so they have to find another way of increasing revenue per race through other mechanisms like sponsorship, tickets, licensing etc. It's like the facebook guys having to increase average revenue per user when user growth slows. At some point, you can only get so many users from so many races. So their market cap can only grow by increasing revenue off the same cost base. Unlike software, they can't add 100% margin incremental revenue unless they can generate that through sponsors and advertising....but watching triathlon is like watching paint dry and the fans are more or less the same people who already pay for race entries.

How do you expand advertising and sponsorship by winning over fans who are non racers? I have no clue. None of my friends or colleagues who are not active care about pro triathlon. They care about the World Series. I think this is the rough problem in terms of scaling WTC's valuation. Its really a pure services business model proportional to headcount and infrastructure. Investors hate services models when it comes to ability to have multiples of revenue valuations.

I think licensing their name to smaller races is potentially scaleable and could be a win/win for both parties. Those races would get some name brand recognition and as a result higher participation numbers and WTC receives royalty revenue without increasing their cost base. They already do some of this, right (thinking AC 70.3)? They would have to have a brand ambassodor attend these events to ensure the experience is up to brand standards... but to be honest, I get the impression that local races are run better anyway.

Why do their short course (5150) offerings suck so much and/or why did they never take off? Is that market just too competitive and saturated?

They have also been expanding into pure running races (thinking the Rock & Roll Marathon acquisition last summer) If I were them I would want to maximize my merch sales - branding a series of half marathons that get 20-30k plus participants "IRONMAN 13.1" or something similar gives them a lot more outlets to do this, and it also promotes the core brand and pinnacle of the sport which still rests at Kona, which could in turn increase the interest in IM events and viewership.

Just my 2c anyway

Strava
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Re: Ironman for sale? [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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More Ironman 5150s I'm sure.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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