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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
My guess when he says 3/4, it is about time spent, so a 6 hour day. These guys do 6 hour days at least 3 days or more a week, so not sure what all the fuss is about. But I love it, adding to the Lionel mystique. I got good money(and tequila) riding on this horse, he better be ready to run when the gun goes off!!

This is totally what I am thinking. If people were paying attention, Daniela did a 45k 3-run day a few days back. The amount of work that these guys are able to do is crazy, but it's not that different from Kipchoge doing 40k on a regular basis...I think the amount of work required to complete an ironman is no longer an issue, it's how to make your daily efforts fast enough to win, if that makes sense.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Agreed; the concern here seems way overblown.
Yup

But you know there are probably a few fellow competitors that ā€œlook inā€ on some of Talbotā€™s vids...so maybe a little ā€œfalse advertisingā€ too???

Iā€™m rooting for him, but my money isnā€™t on him....
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [Culley22] [ In reply to ]
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Culley22 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Agreed; the concern here seems way overblown.
Yup

But you know there are probably a few fellow competitors that ā€œlook inā€ on some of Talbotā€™s vids...so maybe a little ā€œfalse advertisingā€ too???

Iā€™m rooting for him, but my money isnā€™t on him....

Smart play
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Culley22 wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
Agreed; the concern here seems way overblown.

Yup

But you know there are probably a few fellow competitors that ā€œlook inā€ on some of Talbotā€™s vids...so maybe a little ā€œfalse advertisingā€ too???

Iā€™m rooting for him, but my money isnā€™t on him....


Smart play


Where the heck is the video anyway...its' 3:10 pm Kona time. Unless Lionel decided to do a full IM and started at 7 am and it's 8:10 into his day, so Talbot should have this thing all wrapped up and posted. Man the service for the peanut gallery is slipping. I'm about to go to slowman and ask for a discount on my subscription to this overpriced media outlet!!!!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
We need to open up a Lionel forum now that I can't have a Jan forum!!!

Oh Dev, you want a forum just to talk about me? I don't know what to say, I'm so flattered. I'm actually blushing right now.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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I am trying to balance it off with a thread about trying to get the next Canuck hope over to Kona, but it seems no one cares about Cody for now. I'll need to Superdave the Cody Beals thread when he beats Lionel, Jan, Gomez, Brownlee, Sebi and Lange at Kona 2019!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Have we already forgotten what Lionel said just last year... he needs to amass a "ton of fatigue" before he starts his taper.

@ 4:24



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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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You know such "test days" so close to the A race are not a textbook thing.

But look how the top marathoners started to train a couple of years ago and how the times progressed. It's not a short hard/long slow polarized approach anymore. Nowadays the east africans are approaching this with long AND hard sessions. Canova lets his atheltes do very long runs close to marathon pace or long continuous over-under intervals. Sessions like that are crazy hard and sometimes the athletes need muliple easy days to recover afterwards. So they even get away from the three hard days in a week mantra and only run hard again when the body is ready (not when it's time for track tuesday). So in the last preparation period you might have fewer hard sessions but the ones you do are really hard.

Or you can always look at Kipchoge who does a brisk 40km longrun 7 weeks before his marathon.

I've been wondering what happened it triathletes started to approach ironman preparation in the same way. So if they did several very big days in the last two month and use the rest of the days to support that.

The question is does Lionel also only go to 90% effort and save the rest for race day?
(After I thought that I'd left some races in training in the past, I now do my last couple of workouts before big races with the feeling that I could go deeper. I push until it gets hard and then back off. I say to myself that in the race I can push through that and dig very deep but now is not the time for it.)


Anyway it is "Ć¼berinteresting".

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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ToBeasy wrote:
Or you can always look at Kipchoge who does a brisk 40km longrun 7 weeks before his marathon.

Don't you mean two weeks? His last 40km was on Sept 14th according to his training log.

-Eric
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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Extension of speed, or extending the time as opposed to the intensity....usually specifically targeted for the long run.

For sure a Canova thing, weā€™ve used it a lot with success with certain FOP AG athletes. It works IMO as long as it is used sparingly within the context of other work.

Having said that no real idea of what LS other work is.

This is what makes racing fun, we will regroup in a couple weeks and see who the best armchair QB isšŸ˜€

Cheers,
Maurice
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]
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I meant one week or seven days. But it might have been 38km.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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This place is in desperate need of it's own LS sub board!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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ToBeasy wrote:
You know such "test days" so close to the A race are not a textbook thing.

But look how the top marathoners started to train a couple of years ago and how the times progressed. It's not a short hard/long slow polarized approach anymore. Nowadays the east africans are approaching this with long AND hard sessions. Canova lets his atheltes do very long runs close to marathon pace or long continuous over-under intervals. Sessions like that are crazy hard and sometimes the athletes need muliple easy days to recover afterwards. So they even get away from the three hard days in a week mantra and only run hard again when the body is ready (not when it's time for track tuesday). So in the last preparation period you might have fewer hard sessions but the ones you do are really hard.

Or you can always look at Kipchoge who does a brisk 40km longrun 7 weeks before his marathon.

I've been wondering what happened it triathletes started to approach ironman preparation in the same way. So if they did several very big days in the last two month and use the rest of the days to support that.

The question is does Lionel also only go to 90% effort and save the rest for race day?
(After I thought that I'd left some races in training in the past, I now do my last couple of workouts before big races with the feeling that I could go deeper. I push until it gets hard and then back off. I say to myself that in the race I can push through that and dig very deep but now is not the time for it.)


Anyway it is "Ć¼berinteresting".

I think Lionel uses some verbage that raises some eyebrows - test days - he doesn't train, he practices - and it always sticks out, at least to me, as odd. If he did the exact same workout named race simulation, which many people are doing at this point as far as I can tell per insta, strava etc, it's not as fatalistic sounding as test day sounds, if that makes any sense at all.

Regarding Kipchoge - looks like it was 3 40k runs within 4 weeks, the last of those 10 days out from Berlin in 2017 (in the training log that I have seen that was released). Sure, Eliud is the greatest and obviously not the norm, but knowing that he has a training group seemingly with him all the time I would think that he's not the only one doing this training. I don't believe that professional triathletes can handle that much work on the run (ITU athletes are seemingly on the rivet of injury most of the time with their speedwork in addition to all the swim and bike work they do).

However, I believe that the best triathletes have this amazing bike durability which allows them to get thru a hard long ride and be fresh enough for the brick run to not take "that much" out for them. Also, Lionel stated last year he did his last long day 11 days out - swam the course - 177k on the bike (4:29) and 15k off it (3:55/k). This is seemingly a pretty standard IM long day for him (he stated an hour less than the previous 10 day block - again 2017), and if he is doing it this time 14 days out, should be able to shed that fatigue better than last year. I am sure that his taper will help him be fresh and ready for the day - while the videos seem to give a

For me, same thing. I am just not able to dig that hard in training leading up to a race, and use that mental strength on race day. Maybe I need to get back to "that place" more in training again, which is probably the case. But I don't have a huge goal like winning the Ironman world championship to push me there ;)

It is uberinteresting for sure - honestly a good portion of the discussion generated from this has been tremendous reading! Also a good amount of other stuff!

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [Raw Oyster] [ In reply to ]
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Raw Oyster wrote:
Yep - and the beauty is we get to witness if this was exactly what he needed after IMMT or an abject failure.
Racing today has a lot more technology and science behind it, but at the end of the day, the guy who can dig the deepest is going to end up wining in 2 weeks.

Sounds like wager time!!! Raw Oyster is a LS fanboy. DP is anyone but LS. Loser buys the brewskis!!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [nuclearjerm] [ In reply to ]
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Moosehead on the house, Nuclear
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
ToBeasy wrote:
You know such "test days" so close to the A race are not a textbook thing.

But look how the top marathoners started to train a couple of years ago and how the times progressed. It's not a short hard/long slow polarized approach anymore. Nowadays the east africans are approaching this with long AND hard sessions. Canova lets his atheltes do very long runs close to marathon pace or long continuous over-under intervals. Sessions like that are crazy hard and sometimes the athletes need muliple easy days to recover afterwards. So they even get away from the three hard days in a week mantra and only run hard again when the body is ready (not when it's time for track tuesday). So in the last preparation period you might have fewer hard sessions but the ones you do are really hard.

Or you can always look at Kipchoge who does a brisk 40km longrun 7 weeks before his marathon.

I've been wondering what happened it triathletes started to approach ironman preparation in the same way. So if they did several very big days in the last two month and use the rest of the days to support that.

The question is does Lionel also only go to 90% effort and save the rest for race day?
(After I thought that I'd left some races in training in the past, I now do my last couple of workouts before big races with the feeling that I could go deeper. I push until it gets hard and then back off. I say to myself that in the race I can push through that and dig very deep but now is not the time for it.)


Anyway it is "Ć¼berinteresting".


I think Lionel uses some verbage that raises some eyebrows - test days - he doesn't train, he practices - and it always sticks out, at least to me, as odd. If he did the exact same workout named race simulation, which many people are doing at this point as far as I can tell per insta, strava etc, it's not as fatalistic sounding as test day sounds, if that makes any sense at all.

Regarding Kipchoge - looks like it was 3 40k runs within 4 weeks, the last of those 10 days out from Berlin in 2017 (in the training log that I have seen that was released). Sure, Eliud is the greatest and obviously not the norm, but knowing that he has a training group seemingly with him all the time I would think that he's not the only one doing this training. I don't believe that professional triathletes can handle that much work on the run (ITU athletes are seemingly on the rivet of injury most of the time with their speedwork in addition to all the swim and bike work they do).

However, I believe that the best triathletes have this amazing bike durability which allows them to get thru a hard long ride and be fresh enough for the brick run to not take "that much" out for them. Also, Lionel stated last year he did his last long day 11 days out - swam the course - 177k on the bike (4:29) and 15k off it (3:55/k). This is seemingly a pretty standard IM long day for him (he stated an hour less than the previous 10 day block - again 2017), and if he is doing it this time 14 days out, should be able to shed that fatigue better than last year. I am sure that his taper will help him be fresh and ready for the day - while the videos seem to give a

For me, same thing. I am just not able to dig that hard in training leading up to a race, and use that mental strength on race day. Maybe I need to get back to "that place" more in training again, which is probably the case. But I don't have a huge goal like winning the Ironman world championship to push me there ;)

It is uberinteresting for sure - honestly a good portion of the discussion generated from this has been tremendous reading! Also a good amount of other stuff!


Let's take 2 3/4 IM days, both 6 hours

3K swim (35 min), 135K bike (3:10), 31K run (2 hrs) ~ 5:45

or

4K swim (55), 180K bike (4:20), 8K run (26 min) ~ 5:45

I guess 3/4 Ironman is a lose term....if he's doing the second workout this seems fine even the weekend before Lionel could easily absorb the second workout often and bounce back. Doing the equivalent of the old Nice triathlon on ITU Long Course worlds a few weeks out could be awesome but it could backfire.

WRT too the guys talking about marathoners doing a 40K run as prep for racing, keep in mind this is ONLY a 2 hour workout....not a 2 hour run at the end of 4 hours of swim-bike
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 1, 18 8:40
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
dfru wrote:
ToBeasy wrote:
You know such "test days" so close to the A race are not a textbook thing.

But look how the top marathoners started to train a couple of years ago and how the times progressed. It's not a short hard/long slow polarized approach anymore. Nowadays the east africans are approaching this with long AND hard sessions. Canova lets his atheltes do very long runs close to marathon pace or long continuous over-under intervals. Sessions like that are crazy hard and sometimes the athletes need muliple easy days to recover afterwards. So they even get away from the three hard days in a week mantra and only run hard again when the body is ready (not when it's time for track tuesday). So in the last preparation period you might have fewer hard sessions but the ones you do are really hard.

Or you can always look at Kipchoge who does a brisk 40km longrun 7 weeks before his marathon.

I've been wondering what happened it triathletes started to approach ironman preparation in the same way. So if they did several very big days in the last two month and use the rest of the days to support that.

The question is does Lionel also only go to 90% effort and save the rest for race day?
(After I thought that I'd left some races in training in the past, I now do my last couple of workouts before big races with the feeling that I could go deeper. I push until it gets hard and then back off. I say to myself that in the race I can push through that and dig very deep but now is not the time for it.)


Anyway it is "Ć¼berinteresting".


I think Lionel uses some verbage that raises some eyebrows - test days - he doesn't train, he practices - and it always sticks out, at least to me, as odd. If he did the exact same workout named race simulation, which many people are doing at this point as far as I can tell per insta, strava etc, it's not as fatalistic sounding as test day sounds, if that makes any sense at all.

Regarding Kipchoge - looks like it was 3 40k runs within 4 weeks, the last of those 10 days out from Berlin in 2017 (in the training log that I have seen that was released). Sure, Eliud is the greatest and obviously not the norm, but knowing that he has a training group seemingly with him all the time I would think that he's not the only one doing this training. I don't believe that professional triathletes can handle that much work on the run (ITU athletes are seemingly on the rivet of injury most of the time with their speedwork in addition to all the swim and bike work they do).

However, I believe that the best triathletes have this amazing bike durability which allows them to get thru a hard long ride and be fresh enough for the brick run to not take "that much" out for them. Also, Lionel stated last year he did his last long day 11 days out - swam the course - 177k on the bike (4:29) and 15k off it (3:55/k). This is seemingly a pretty standard IM long day for him (he stated an hour less than the previous 10 day block - again 2017), and if he is doing it this time 14 days out, should be able to shed that fatigue better than last year. I am sure that his taper will help him be fresh and ready for the day - while the videos seem to give a

For me, same thing. I am just not able to dig that hard in training leading up to a race, and use that mental strength on race day. Maybe I need to get back to "that place" more in training again, which is probably the case. But I don't have a huge goal like winning the Ironman world championship to push me there ;)

It is uberinteresting for sure - honestly a good portion of the discussion generated from this has been tremendous reading! Also a good amount of other stuff!


Let's take 2 3/4 IM days, both 6 hours

3K swim (35 min), 135K bike (3:10), 31K run (2 hrs) ~ 5:45

or

4K swim (55), 180K bike (4:20), 8K run (26 min) ~ 5:45

I guess 3/4 Ironman is a lose term....if he's doing the second workout this seems fine even the weekend before Lionel could easily absorb the second workout often and bounce back. Doing the equivalent of the old Nice triathlon on ITU Long Course worlds a few weeks out could be awesome but it could backfire.

WRT too the guys talking about marathoners doing a 40K run as prep for racing, keep in mind this is ONLY a 2 hour workout....not a 2 hour run at the end of 4 hours of swim-bike

For sure - the bike durability was kind of what I am keying in on. Lionel doesn't have the run durability to do a 30k tempo this close and not have it affect his race, but he does doing a near race pace effort on the bike.

WRT the marathoners - yes, only a 2 hour workout but in the end they are able to go harder for that 2 hour run than a triathlete even needs to, since we can get some of our fitness from the other two sports instead of run only. Also, I think that a 40k near race pace run for an amateur triathlete would floor them possibly more than an actual ironman...at least it would for me.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
dfru wrote:
ToBeasy wrote:
You know such "test days" so close to the A race are not a textbook thing.

But look how the top marathoners started to train a couple of years ago and how the times progressed. It's not a short hard/long slow polarized approach anymore. Nowadays the east africans are approaching this with long AND hard sessions. Canova lets his atheltes do very long runs close to marathon pace or long continuous over-under intervals. Sessions like that are crazy hard and sometimes the athletes need muliple easy days to recover afterwards. So they even get away from the three hard days in a week mantra and only run hard again when the body is ready (not when it's time for track tuesday). So in the last preparation period you might have fewer hard sessions but the ones you do are really hard.

Or you can always look at Kipchoge who does a brisk 40km longrun 7 weeks before his marathon.

I've been wondering what happened it triathletes started to approach ironman preparation in the same way. So if they did several very big days in the last two month and use the rest of the days to support that.

The question is does Lionel also only go to 90% effort and save the rest for race day?
(After I thought that I'd left some races in training in the past, I now do my last couple of workouts before big races with the feeling that I could go deeper. I push until it gets hard and then back off. I say to myself that in the race I can push through that and dig very deep but now is not the time for it.)


Anyway it is "Ć¼berinteresting".


I think Lionel uses some verbage that raises some eyebrows - test days - he doesn't train, he practices - and it always sticks out, at least to me, as odd. If he did the exact same workout named race simulation, which many people are doing at this point as far as I can tell per insta, strava etc, it's not as fatalistic sounding as test day sounds, if that makes any sense at all.

Regarding Kipchoge - looks like it was 3 40k runs within 4 weeks, the last of those 10 days out from Berlin in 2017 (in the training log that I have seen that was released). Sure, Eliud is the greatest and obviously not the norm, but knowing that he has a training group seemingly with him all the time I would think that he's not the only one doing this training. I don't believe that professional triathletes can handle that much work on the run (ITU athletes are seemingly on the rivet of injury most of the time with their speedwork in addition to all the swim and bike work they do).

However, I believe that the best triathletes have this amazing bike durability which allows them to get thru a hard long ride and be fresh enough for the brick run to not take "that much" out for them. Also, Lionel stated last year he did his last long day 11 days out - swam the course - 177k on the bike (4:29) and 15k off it (3:55/k). This is seemingly a pretty standard IM long day for him (he stated an hour less than the previous 10 day block - again 2017), and if he is doing it this time 14 days out, should be able to shed that fatigue better than last year. I am sure that his taper will help him be fresh and ready for the day - while the videos seem to give a

For me, same thing. I am just not able to dig that hard in training leading up to a race, and use that mental strength on race day. Maybe I need to get back to "that place" more in training again, which is probably the case. But I don't have a huge goal like winning the Ironman world championship to push me there ;)

It is uberinteresting for sure - honestly a good portion of the discussion generated from this has been tremendous reading! Also a good amount of other stuff!


Let's take 2 3/4 IM days, both 6 hours

3K swim (35 min), 135K bike (3:10), 31K run (2 hrs) ~ 5:45

or

4K swim (55), 180K bike (4:20), 8K run (26 min) ~ 5:45

I guess 3/4 Ironman is a lose term....if he's doing the second workout this seems fine even the weekend before Lionel could easily absorb the second workout often and bounce back. Doing the equivalent of the old Nice triathlon on ITU Long Course worlds a few weeks out could be awesome but it could backfire.

WRT too the guys talking about marathoners doing a 40K run as prep for racing, keep in mind this is ONLY a 2 hour workout....not a 2 hour run at the end of 4 hours of swim-bike


For sure - the bike durability was kind of what I am keying in on. Lionel doesn't have the run durability to do a 30k tempo this close and not have it affect his race, but he does doing a near race pace effort on the bike.

WRT the marathoners - yes, only a 2 hour workout but in the end they are able to go harder for that 2 hour run than a triathlete even needs to, since we can get some of our fitness from the other two sports instead of run only. Also, I think that a 40k near race pace run for an amateur triathlete would floor them possibly more than an actual ironman...at least it would for me.

this is all apples to oranges. running for most people is very damaging compared to swim and bike. however the likes of kipchoge have such good running mechanics and a huge running base that they are different. a 40km hard run (ie ~2.25 hours) is no big deal. lionel does not have such good running mechanics and as a triathlete is not able to build up such a deep base of running, nor the inherent speed, so a 40km hard run will be very damaging for him. doing that after a long hard ride is another level again. lionel is likely able to handle riding like that though so yeah, Dev's option 2 is probably not unreasonable if he feels the need.

i also like the principle of ignoring session titles and looking at the actual time/distance/intensity, relative to the athlete's normal level. words can mean different things to different people.

most of all though, its his life, he is welcome to do whatever makes him happy. we can debate for our own benefit whether it is the right thing for him or anyone else to do but thats just for our benefit, not his
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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The more you talk about LS the more Chuck Norris comes to my head :P

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Talbot Cox says Lionel is doing a 3/4 IM 2 weeks out from Kona [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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Itā€™s not just mechanics. Itā€™s weight too, Kipchoge is a whopping 123lbs. Sanders is a bit over 150 give or take. Thatā€™s a lot of extra pounding every single day that adds up.
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