He seems to be nailing his workouts on the island. I know that you questioned IMMT & some ppl, his last 3/4 test, but he appears to be showing no signs of overreaching and looks to be confident and absorbing the work. I would suspect a taper to be starting any day now (like after this big workout, lol).

Dammit Lionel.....training is supposed to be to get physiologically stronger. Race simulations have a time and place and can make the athlete physiologically stronger while making the athlete psychologically stronger. But seriously, this is kinda what every panicking age grouper does in the lead up to the big A event. They do race simulations until they do them too close and dig a hole. How many race simulations does he need. I really want him to win, but I think Sebi and Gomez and Currie and and and are hoping that he does another 3/4 IM race simulation next week or a track workout on race week of 26x1 miles on 6:10 pace to practice the 2:42 run pace.

Look,

There currently aren’t enough Lionel threads.

Could you please partition this into 5-7 different threads??

Smart ass aside that is a good work out as long as he hits targets on swim and bike, but is then “holistic” on the run....ie per his previous “test” packing it in when you know what you need to.

Cheers,
Maurice

We need to open up a Lionel forum now that I can't have a Jan forum!!!

I would think the swim and bike standalone would be a good workout and then practice starting the run at no faster than 6:20 pace off the bike and cap it at 2-3 miles. If you watch the pros on Alii drive and time them, almost all the top guys take off running much faster than Mark and Dave did in 1989....then they all run slower than Mark and Dave did in 89. Dave had the off the bike pace dialed in. Lionel does not. He would be better off cutting down the run after today's swim-bike. He may just succeed in spite of himself because he is Lionel.

Hey, I've been waiting for 15 years for a Canadian win since Peter Reid 2003. I just hope he's not over doing it!!!! Just let us overdo the Lionel threads!!!

I thought he blamed his shitty performance 2/3 years ago on too many race simulations which left him overtrained going into Kona. I guess he lost track of the many idiotic things he's tried in the last few years... Next year I predict the the return of the camelbak.

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I am hoping that Talbot comes back with the video where Lionel gets off the bike cranks through 5K in 18:30 and announces, "nailed pace for swim and bike and dialed in my Alii drive pace....ready to roll" and does not do the next 25K of running!

As if Lionel didn’t need a coach more, Jesus!

What Lionel fails to grasp is the concept of drawing water from the well.
You think, I’m not sure there is enough water down there for my needs, you have 2 options. You draw it up, demonstrate how much is down there, then hope it refills in time. OR you do the clever thing and think about all the rainfall you had so you know there is enough down there come the need.

Lionel has done all the training, he’s physiologically stronger than anyone. He’s either going to blow the race apart or ruin himself.

Reckon he’s been checking out Sebis instagram!

I’ve been at the 10 km mark hand timing a bunch of times recently.

The only guy I’ve timed at sub 37 who actually didn’t die was Jan.

I forget which year but he was clearly sending a message.

You would be surprised how many guys split sub 40...and obviously not surprised by how few run sub 2:49ish.

Anyways , Not data but personal observation perhaps. I always started timing at the sea side and then bikes out to 10 km. Will do it again this year.

Cheers,
Maurice

could be a heat workout... swim and bike according to plan with race nutrition with some VO2 on the end of bike to get core temp up, then remove fluids during run to trigger heat/thirst response. Hot shower recovery and then repeat 96hrs later... the heat stuff not the 3/4 IM, that's just silly.

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Sorry just to add...2-3 miles is worthless, what he is seeking is a conformational data point.

Ie not trying to figure out some mystery or what he doesn’t know but to verify a strategy and approach to execution.

So...let’s see what he does and re-group.

I think it’s subjective territory to comment on the psychology of any one individual athlete.

Maurice

In terms of hand timing, as much as I can I have been trying to record time out at T2 for top pros and when they pass the 1 mile mark on video or via GPS tracker or whatever means I can to get confirmation remotely. If I could have a spotter stand at 1 mile and give me time of day or race time and we know time out at T2 we can accurate 1 mile splits but it seems that whenever I can get a number the pace is way hot. Lot's of guys going back to Ralaert chasing Crowie in 2011 below 6:00. I think Ralaert went through in 5:3x. It was crazy fast. I think if lionel can transition fast and jog that first mile in 6:30 it would be awesome for later in the day. The first two-three miles are not the place to bank time!

Blood lactate response and rer response running off the bike are “extremely inflated” for about 20-30 minutes depending on the athlete.

I don’t know why and I’ve tested this over 100 times (to validate nutrition protocols for IM athletes)

Perhaps there is residual clearing and input loads working at the same time.

...basically run slow in the first 10 km to run fast or even later.

Probably what we knew 20 or 30 years ago.

Cheers,
Maurice

Everyone's biological makeup is different as is their recovery time. He knows his body better than anyone.
I don't see any threads bashing Matt Russell for actually racing a full IM today, 13 days out from Kona.


Lionel's an easy target for most, because he let's us inside his world via Talbot.

So if he takes the win, is he still similar to a panicking age grouper? Or does he know a little more about himself than you know about him?

I would still say its the same move as a panicking age grouper even IF he wins. Lots of strong guys can succeed in spite of what they do. I don't think WE (collectively) care as much about Matt because he's not a contender for the Kona podium win and that's fine. We respect Matt as an amazing athlete. He's just a touch down from Lionel.

Lionel knows his body better than anyone else, just like we all know our bodies better than anyone else. Its also why we are the least objective about ourselves. I don't think Lionel is any different. Hey, I'm a big fan of the guy. But it's like if you love the Los Angeles Dodgers or Manchester United or New England Patriots and over analyse what the team manager's decision is. It's pro sport. We're allowed to rip up our teams and athletes.

Here's the thing, when you say in spite of what they do, you've already formed your opinion as to what he should do based off of your own experience. And what "the norm" is. What if he's doing something that for him is the norm?

For him, it may be more psychological than physiological. And that's the part everyone glosses over. His strength isn't his swim stroke, bike fit, or running stride. We can rip those things to shreds. It's pretty easy to do.

What makes him different is that he's willing to go to places most would be frightened to go in order to to make him race day ready.

Whether you agree or not is inconsequential. You have no idea what fuels his fire.

You are right. None of us know what fuels his fire. My personal experiences are irrelevant (I've certainly done things like raced full throttle half IM's 2 weeks before an IM). But thats not relevant. There is a reason why there are roughly "norms". Guys like Molina, Tinley, Scott, where out there before there were any norms, so they had to figure things out through trial and error. We could ask Rappstar if he thinks doing something really long and hard right before Kona is a great idea.

Lionel (as well as the rest of us) don't have to figure it out through trial and error anymore. There is 40 years of training data out there.

There is a slight chance that doing a 3/4 IM simulation 2 weeks out (actually 13 days out....which makes a diff relative to 14 days) is a good thing for him. But there is likely a greater chance it is not. He MAY indeed be the exception. In any case, this is "only" a 6 hrs training day given the size of his engine, so given the relatively short duration it may not be that bad. But there si a good chance it could take away from his race.

Yep - and the beauty is we get to witness if this was exactly what he needed after IMMT or an abject failure.
Racing today has a lot more technology and science behind it, but at the end of the day, the guy who can dig the deepest is going to end up wining in 2 weeks.

Here's the thing, when you say in spite of what they do, you've already formed your opinion as to what he should do based off of your own experience. And what "the norm" is. What if he's doing something that for him is the norm? //


Here's the thing guys, you will find that most ironman male pros, will ride a 100+, swim 5k, and run about 45 to an hour on a normal longish day. I know of some Germans who would do this 6 days a week, for a month and more. So what you are describing is just a normal hard workout that virtually every pro in the race is doing now, and has been doing the past few months. It certainly will be time to dial back and taper very soon(although Dave seemed to do ok with a very small taper), and I suspect we will see that soon. You all have to remember for a guy like Lionel or other top pros, swimming 4k at ironman race pace, and then riding the same, is not that critical as far as going into the tank. Now if you tell me he will run 20 miles at 6;10 pace afterwards, then that is getting into the well and probably not a great thing a couple weeks out..


I think you all are using your own lenses when hearing about these workouts, and not the lens of a long distance top male pro, and what is normal for them..

imagine if ESPN commentators were berated for critiquing athletes or coaches and told that the ball player is amazing, so that alone is prevents commentators from hurling any critiques. I say, critique away. This is sport and an engaged fan base is going to include criticism. And yes, Tabot Cox is having a blast with this, no doubt.

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Monty, yes, a 4K swim (1 hour), 135K bike (3:20), 5K run is just a 4:40 workout, so that's close to a daily thing at the top end. Really when Talbot said 3/4 IM, I am hoping it is a 6 hour workout with a short run and more swim-bike, and not a 20ish mile run with a 3/4 lengths swim and 3/4 length bike.

Exactly, I remember the blogpost with the revelation that his method of training IM paces and distances in training over and over was an ineffective method. He talks about learning all the time, seems more like rewinding the tape and replaying the same movie.

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My guess when he says 3/4, it is about time spent, so a 6 hour day. These guys do 6 hour days at least 3 days or more a week, so not sure what all the fuss is about. But I love it, adding to the Lionel mystique. I got good money(and tequila) riding on this horse, he better be ready to run when the gun goes off!!

My money as you know is in the Kienle horse. My heart is with the Sanders horse.

I am hoping Talbot and Lionel have this master plan to stage a movie production where he nails a 37 minutes 3K swim, a 3:0x 135K ride and cranks out a virtual sub 1:55 20 miler but really its all staged and he just does 5K and the video makes it look like he is going to the well over that distanace to freak out all of us fans here and get inside the heads of competition so they think he is fried.

....and in fairness to Lionel, last year he did ITU World's long course "3/4 Ironman" as a pretty awesome test day. But that was not 2 weeks out. More like 6 weeks.

OK Talbot, where si the video...he should be done by now!

Agreed; the concern here seems way overblown.