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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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How many days per week are you running? Has that been the case for the last 8-12 weeks? If the answer is yes then you are just having a planning and progression problem on the run. The first thing I notice is you are not doing any form of periodized focus to your training. There should be a few phases throughout the training year.

1. Base phase with high mileage and low intensity
2. Building Phase with similar mileage but adding in hills + speed interval work
3. Fine Tuning Phase where you drop the volume and maintain the intensity while doing specific work for the race demands.

The way I train my run is:

1. Winter + Early Spring is all about volume and low intensity. I progressively build up my weekly mileage with no more than a 10% increase week over week.
2. I then use the spring time to get in my hill and speed work while maintaining the same volume within 20% of the last week of my previous block and I won't run any more than that volume in the entire phase. I do however then progressively build up the duration or distance of the hill repeats and speed intervals.
3. Lastly I then start to fine tune my engine. I drop the weekly mileage by 20% or more, get in a few open 5K races building up to a 10K open race and weekly bricks off a hard weekend bike. This is where tempo runs become bread and butter and even on easy runs I throw in a shorter tempo interval just to get my legs up to speed. These intervals are always no more than 10% of the entire run so 6 minutes for a 60 minute run.

I've managed to get not only myself, but a close training buddy to new PRs in the last couple of years with this approach.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [playero] [ In reply to ]
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playero wrote:
hugoagogo wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
95 degrees and 85% humidity.


OK, I'm calling BS here. Where was this sprint? With those numbers, the dew point would be 89+ degrees. In the United States, there have only been 3 recorded instances of dew point over 90.


Not that I know where this fella did his race... but have you EVER heard of a state called Florida?! Usually in this particular state, humidity does avg in the 80%+ of humidity & high 80s to low 90s in temp!

I did Ft Desoto Tri in FL and that race was super hot and humid! Overwhelming actually but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the site of the race of this other individual

That is the race I did. The run was sooooo hot. The first, what, half mile was in the sand with NO BREEZE.


As to the responses. Yes I run 6 days a week and 3 miles at least each time. Usually bike on sundays. If I don't then I am fishing/diving. I try to sit on the trainer for an hour 2x3 times a week. I know I am not biking much but it always seemed my run lacked - even in an open 5k. Hence the maintenance on the swim and the bike and focus on the run. Perhaps I should up the bike and swim and try and maintain the run volume - but I work a stressful demanding job so I don't know if I can put that much time into it.

The calorie deficit is not a great one. It is not noticeable to me in regards to energy. I am pretty sure I was dehydrated as sin going into the race and got little sleep the night before.

So new plan. Up the bike game by a few hours - and add 2 swim workouts in. Start at 35 mpw of base running outside in the heat. Slow and steady. Increase speed based off HR as time goes on. Hydrate and maybe make my deficit like 200 cals a day instead of the 400 it is at. I am not getting injured or sick or tired of having trouble sleeping so my body can handle all of this - just couldn't pin point a variable that was a cause - but it seems the variable is everything combined - not just one aspect.
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
It seems like you’re doing a ton of speed work. What’s the reason for half your runs at night going down to that pace? Fast finish runs aren’t bad but doing them all the time is probably overkill. Your also fast finishing them very fast compared to your fitness level.

Final thing: you’re doing races in the heat and you’re wondering why you can’t handle the heat when you train inside to avoid the heat...

I trained in Iowa in summer, running in that sucks but if you want to run in that for a race you need to train in it. All your paces are all jacked up because you’re training in conditions you don’t race in.

You’re not blowing up because of the heat you’re blowing up because you’re expecting your fitness to translate from running on a treadmill inside to running outside in hot temps. That’s not gonna work.

+1, pretty sure this is the final answer

I am of similar dimensions (6'2"), although a tad bit lighter at 175. When I train in the heat, I do well in the heat. Only T-storms or dangerous air quality should keep you indoors.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
So new plan. Up the bike game by a few hours - and add 2 swim workouts in. Start at 35 mpw of base running outside in the heat. Slow and steady. Increase speed based off HR as time goes on. Hydrate and maybe make my deficit like 200 cals a day instead of the 400 it is at

The major gain here is the bike, up it's volume / intensity & you'll likely see good results.

Dump the idea of running a calorie deficit until you're able to eat the extra load, hard bikes burn a whole lot of energy, no point sticking yourself in a hole.
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [playero] [ In reply to ]
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playero wrote:
hugoagogo wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
95 degrees and 85% humidity.


OK, I'm calling BS here. Where was this sprint? With those numbers, the dew point would be 89+ degrees. In the United States, there have only been 3 recorded instances of dew point over 90.


Not that I know where this fella did his race... but have you EVER heard of a state called Florida?! Usually in this particular state, humidity does avg in the 80%+ of humidity & high 80s to low 90s in temp!

I did Ft Desoto Tri in FL and that race was super hot and humid! Overwhelming actually but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the site of the race of this other individual

That was my point. It really doesn't matter where the race was. 90 degree dew point is highly unusual for anywhere in the world, much less in the USA. According to Weather Underground, the dew point in St Petersburg on Saturday topped out at 78 degrees (83 degrees/85% humidity) at 5:53 a.m. and decreased slightly the rest of the morning and was lower in the afternoon.

Sorry -- everyone has a pet peeve and this is mine. The dew point will stay relatively constant in a normal day (without a front coming through), but relative humidity will decrease as the temperature increases and it will increase as the temperature decreases. People will often cite the relative humidity from early in the morning in combination with the temperature from the heat of the day -- when the relative humidity is a lot lower.

Anyway, I understand that it was hot, so carry on.
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around a Sprint triathlon where 20 out of 300 could swim OW 700 yards in under 9:20!

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Aug 21, 18 12:59
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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I've done the Ft DeSoto Sprint Tri (the one he said he just did) in the past. It usually has about a 400 yard swim. It's advertised as 1/4 mile. Not sure what it actually turned out to be, distance-wise, when he did it, but 20 people under 9:20 suggests that is was shorter than a 700....
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
O

Then on the run I blew up hard. It was just too hot to get my HR under control (95 degrees and 85% humidity). I am a big dude. Everyone died though. 24 minute 5k won my age group for the run. More people walking than I have ever seen. The kicker here is I run probably 50 miles a week. I have been run focused. Steady runs at zone 2/3 of 5 miles in the morn and 3-4 in the evening. Half of my evening runs are negative splits. Start pace at 8:30's end pace being 6:00 on a 3-4 mile run with usually a 5:30 pace for a 400m at least twice with a cool down then up the pace again.

What do you consider zone 2/3 for you?

If your open 5k is 22:00 -- even say 21:00 since it was hot -- that is 6:45 pace for 5k so easy pace for you should be between 8:30 to 9:30. 9:30 closer to recovery and 8:30 your max zone 2. tempo runs at 7:30-45 and threshold around 7:00-7:15. Again assuming 21:00 flat is what you could do in an open 5k.

I'd say you are running way to much to fast. If you want to be running 50 mpw - do almost all that slower than 8:30 pace if not all of it, and closer to the 9-9:30 pace. After you get 4-6 months under your belt then start to do some speed work. Until then - just run slow.

As far as doing speed work - if 21:00 5k is your true ability then i'd say work on doing 3 x 1600 @ 6:15 pace with 1 min standing rest. When you can do that and you don't feel your form breaking down or your legs getting tired the last 800 of the last 1600 then work on 2 x 3200 at that pace.

You don't need speed yet - you need strength to hold your pace off the bike. Speed will only help if you have the strength/endurance to hold form after you are already tired.
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
Ok I am at a loss here...

This could be a good topic of discussion - in regards to someones natural ability.

So I had a sprint race last weekend. I am in the pool maybe once a week. 2000 yards max. It was a 700 yard swim and I averaged 1:20 per 100 yard. I was the 20th fastest swimmer out of 300 people. First in my age group by a full minute. It was an "moderate effort swim". That said I am also comfortable in the ocean. After the race I went skin diving at a reef on the boat.

I am on the bike - maybe 50 miles a week as it stands - and was 4th in my age group but held my own. HR never too high - purposely didn't hammer it because I knew it was brutal hot and the run is where I suffer.

Then on the run I blew up hard. It was just too hot to get my HR under control (95 degrees and 85% humidity). I am a big dude. Everyone died though. 24 minute 5k won my age group for the run. More people walking than I have ever seen. The kicker here is I run probably 50 miles a week. I have been run focused. Steady runs at zone 2/3 of 5 miles in the morn and 3-4 in the evening. Half of my evening runs are negative splits. Start pace at 8:30's end pace being 6:00 on a 3-4 mile run with usually a 5:30 pace for a 400m at least twice with a cool down then up the pace again.


Some guy before the race started, asked if I was a swimmer. Tall, lean, broad shoulders (surfer) but pretty big quads and calves.


So what am I doing wrong here. I don't swim much but I can swim, I do not really bike that much and can hold my own, I run a fair bit and can't hang. This is all sprint/oly distance training. I am not doing volume for anything further. What can I do to improve my run? I am 6'2, 183 pounds, 13% body fat at the moment. Trying to get down to 170 to am in a caloric deficit.


Hmmm....

Agreed. Were you in caloric deficit during the race? That alone would be the answer to your question. And if so, you were likely also dehydrated and sodium depleted.
I weigh 180 also and sweat heavy and salty. If that was my performance, I'd focus on drinking more throughout the bike, taking in more sodium and cooling your body in T2 and during the run.

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