Swim vs Bike/Run

Aug 21, 18 5:55

Post #1 of 34 (3423 views)

Ok I am at a loss here...

This could be a good topic of discussion - in regards to someones natural ability.

So I had a sprint race last weekend. I am in the pool maybe once a week. 2000 yards max. It was a 700 yard swim and I averaged 1:20 per 100 yard. I was the 20th fastest swimmer out of 300 people. First in my age group by a full minute. It was an "moderate effort swim". That said I am also comfortable in the ocean. After the race I went skin diving at a reef on the boat.

I am on the bike - maybe 50 miles a week as it stands - and was 4th in my age group but held my own. HR never too high - purposely didn't hammer it because I knew it was brutal hot and the run is where I suffer.

Then on the run I blew up hard. It was just too hot to get my HR under control (95 degrees and 85% humidity). I am a big dude. Everyone died though. 24 minute 5k won my age group for the run. More people walking than I have ever seen. The kicker here is I run probably 50 miles a week. I have been run focused. Steady runs at zone 2/3 of 5 miles in the morn and 3-4 in the evening. Half of my evening runs are negative splits. Start pace at 8:30's end pace being 6:00 on a 3-4 mile run with usually a 5:30 pace for a 400m at least twice with a cool down then up the pace again.

Some guy before the race started, asked if I was a swimmer. Tall, lean, broad shoulders (surfer) but pretty big quads and calves.

So what am I doing wrong here. I don't swim much but I can swim, I do not really bike that much and can hold my own, I run a fair bit and can't hang. This is all sprint/oly distance training. I am not doing volume for anything further. What can I do to improve my run? I am 6'2, 183 pounds, 13% body fat at the moment. Trying to get down to 170 to am in a caloric deficit.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 5:59

Post #2 of 34 (3406 views)

What are you running a 5k in right now? Your paces seem too quick for training it. 24 min had the fastest time.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:01

Post #3 of 34 (3401 views)

Twinkie wrote:

Ok I am at a loss here...

This could be a good topic of discussion - in regards to someones natural ability.

So I had a sprint race last weekend. I am in the pool maybe once a week. 2000 yards max. It was a 700 yard swim and I averaged 1:20 per 100 yard. I was the 20th fastest swimmer out of 300 people. First in my age group by a full minute. It was an "moderate effort swim". That said I am also comfortable in the ocean. After the race I went skin diving at a reef on the boat.

I am on the bike - maybe 50 miles a week as it stands - and was 4th in my age group but held my own. HR never too high - purposely didn't hammer it because I knew it was brutal hot and the run is where I suffer.

Then on the run I blew up hard. It was just too hot to get my HR under control (95 degrees and 85% humidity). I am a big dude. Everyone died though. 24 minute 5k won my age group for the run. More people walking than I have ever seen. The kicker here is I run probably 50 miles a week. I have been run focused. Steady runs at zone 2/3 of 5 miles in the morn and 3-4 in the evening. Half of my evening runs are negative splits. Start pace at 8:30's end pace being 6:00 on a 3-4 mile run with usually a 5:30 pace for a 400m at least twice with a cool down then up the pace again.

Some guy before the race started, asked if I was a swimmer. Tall, lean, broad shoulders (surfer) but pretty big quads and calves.

So what am I doing wrong here. I don't swim much but I can swim, I do not really bike that much and can hold my own, I run a fair bit and can't hang. This is all sprint/oly distance training. I am not doing volume for anything further. What can I do to improve my run? I am 6'2, 183 pounds, 13% body fat at the moment. Trying to get down to 170 to am in a caloric deficit.

Hmmm....

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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:07

Post #4 of 34 (3382 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

What are you running a 5k in right now? Your paces seem too quick for training it. 24 min had the fastest time.

I ran an open a month or so ago when I was doing like 20 mpw and got paced by my buddy who runs a 15:00 5k (college runner). He was pacing me to sub 20 but it was again - like 90 degrees - so PRed at 22:00 flat. I weighed 190 at the time. So clearly I am NOT a fast runner. I do not feel worn or injured with my current mileage.

I am not in a caloric deficit enough to not be able to recover. I have tried to get this down to a science - being a numbers guy.

Should I do more long and slow and Z2 it. Stop doing speed all together? I run inside on the treddy because it is just too hot to run outside effectively right now.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:13

Post #5 of 34 (3359 views)

50 miles a week? That is a ton of miles running. I would say too many miles a week unless you are training for an ultra or something.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:13

Post #6 of 34 (3359 views)

Twinkie wrote:

Grant.Reuter wrote:

What are you running a 5k in right now? Your paces seem too quick for training it. 24 min had the fastest time.

I ran an open a month or so ago when I was doing like 20 mpw and got paced by my buddy who runs a 15:00 5k (college runner). He was pacing me to sub 20 but it was again - like 90 degrees - so PRed at 22:00 flat. I weighed 190 at the time. So clearly I am NOT a fast runner. I do not feel worn or injured with my current mileage.

I am not in a caloric deficit enough to not be able to recover. I have tried to get this down to a science - being a numbers guy.

Should I do more long and slow and Z2 it. Stop doing speed all together? I run inside on the treddy because it is just too hot to run outside effectively right now.

OK, i'm really confused now. Are you running 50 mpw consistently, or were you running 20 and just recently jacked it up to 50?

If you are in a caloric deficit, that can come back to bite you at the end of a "sprint" tri (sprint is in air quotes because they actually have nothing to do with sprinting...)

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:18

Post #7 of 34 (3342 views)

It seems like you’re doing a ton of speed work. What’s the reason for half your runs at night going down to that pace? Fast finish runs aren’t bad but doing them all the time is probably overkill. Your also fast finishing them very fast compared to your fitness level.

Final thing: you’re doing races in the heat and you’re wondering why you can’t handle the heat when you train inside to avoid the heat...

I trained in Iowa in summer, running in that sucks but if you want to run in that for a race you need to train in it. All your paces are all jacked up because you’re training in conditions you don’t race in.

You’re not blowing up because of the heat you’re blowing up because you’re expecting your fitness to translate from running on a treadmill inside to running outside in hot temps. That’s not gonna work.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [arby] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:20

Post #8 of 34 (3332 views)

arby wrote:

50 miles a week? That is a ton of miles running. I would say too many miles a week unless you are training for an ultra or something.

It’s really not. Especially if that’s his weakness.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:29

Post #9 of 34 (3308 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

It seems like you’re doing a ton of speed work. What’s the reason for half your runs at night going down to that pace? Fast finish runs aren’t bad but doing them all the time is probably overkill. Your also fast finishing them very fast compared to your fitness level.

Final thing: you’re doing races in the heat and you’re wondering why you can’t handle the heat when you train inside to avoid the heat...

I trained in Iowa in summer, running in that sucks but if you want to run in that for a race you need to train in it. All your paces are all jacked up because you’re training in conditions you don’t race in.

You’re not blowing up because of the heat you’re blowing up because you’re expecting your fitness to translate from running on a treadmill inside to running outside in hot temps. That’s not gonna work.

You have a point - perhaps I should get outside and just slow run and work my speed up in the heat. That could very well be the issue. Maybe cut out the speed work and work the base fitness level on the run. Maybe try to get to 70mpw at a slow pace with one day of track repeats thrown in. Keep the swim or two in for active recovery and to maintain the pace and then bike for the leg workout.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:39

Post #10 of 34 (3286 views)

Twinkie wrote:

95 degrees and 85% humidity.

OK, I'm calling BS here. Where was this sprint? With those numbers, the dew point would be 89+ degrees. In the United States, there have only been 3 recorded instances of dew point over 90.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 6:40

Post #11 of 34 (3284 views)

Post your weekly run mileage for the last 3 months

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:06

Post #12 of 34 (3236 views)

hugoagogo wrote:

Twinkie wrote:

95 degrees and 85% humidity.

OK, I'm calling BS here. Where was this sprint? With those numbers, the dew point would be 89+ degrees. In the United States, there have only been 3 recorded instances of dew point over 90.

It was as follows: 85 degrees with 84% humidity with a "real feel" of 94 and a wind of 6mph. Tampa Fl. That is what the weather people said.

My run mileage? haha I have NO idea. I haven't started keeping logs. I wrote my 5 miler down last night. So that is my first log. Full transparency and no shame so pass judgement - probably ran 65-70 miles (I know I ran at least 3 miles a day at least 6 days a week - occ 4 or 5) 3 months ago, about 100-105 miles 2 months ago, and I am probably set to run 150-160 this month. So I guess I fibbed - not yet at 50 miles per week. This month I am at about 40 or a little more mpw. I tend to run what feels good. If I am hurting I wont push it. If I am feeling solid I will add a few. I felt good and ran a slow 12 miler a few weeks ago. No pain, nothing hurt, wasn't sore after.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:12

Post #13 of 34 (3213 views)

Next time, I would hammer the bike. The run is going to suck in those conditions for you anyways as a big dude. But it's only 3.1 miles. You can fake that.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:19

Post #14 of 34 (3201 views)

As much as 50 mpw isn’t too high, I wouldn’t bump up to 70 without your bike being a lot longer. You need to be able to run off the bike. If you’re only doing 50 mpw that’s going to affect your ability to run at a high level because your legs are going to be toast.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:27

Post #15 of 34 (3183 views)

MadTownTRI wrote:

Next time, I would hammer the bike. The run is going to suck in those conditions for you anyways as a big dude. But it's only 3.1 miles. You can fake that.

He’s really not that big. Marathon skinny no but at 6’2” he’s gonna have a bit more weight anyways.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:34

Post #16 of 34 (3161 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

As much as 50 mpw isn’t too high, I wouldn’t bump up to 70 without your bike being a lot longer. You need to be able to run off the bike. If you’re only doing 50 mpw that’s going to affect your ability to run at a high level because your legs are going to be toast.

madtown and grant - I have also been doing off the bike runs. Hammer 10 minutes heavy gear on bike on trainer, then off and sprint a .40 mile loop at 6:30 pace. I try to do this 5 times.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:40

Post #17 of 34 (3148 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

OK, i'm really confused now. Are you running 50 mpw consistently, or were you running 20 and just recently jacked it up to 50?

this is the question that needs an answer, I was wondering the same thing.

someone else asked for weekly run miles for the last 12 weeks, I agree, that's where the truth lay.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 7:44

Post #18 of 34 (3133 views)

I think Grant hit the nail on the head when he said you need to run outside to train in what you will race in. I do a sprint series every summer in charleston, SC that has similar weather to what you describe. The biggest thing I've found to get my run times down is to get used to running in the heat. I also try to do a 1m brick off the bike in the summer at least once a week close to race pace. Even though it's a sprint I wouldn't discount how much you are sweating from the swim/bike in those conditions. I tend to finish the sprints close to 8 pounds lighter (i'm 6'3" 182). Make sure you are fully hydrated and I always carry a bottle on the run. I find that if it's really hot I race much better if I'm heavier with water weight on race morning vs. being leaned out.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [greeneturtle] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 8:17

Post #19 of 34 (3084 views)

I am still trying to figure out the 50 miles a week running. How many coaching plans (for age group triathletes of any of race length) have 50 miles per week as a regular part of the plan? I have never seen one. I have multiple friends who are Kona qualifiers and they never run that many miles a week on a regular basis. They might get close as they build to taper, but never that kind of mileage weekly.

I am not talking about pro triathletes, but age-groupers.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 8:19

Post #20 of 34 (3080 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

MadTownTRI wrote:

Next time, I would hammer the bike. The run is going to suck in those conditions for you anyways as a big dude. But it's only 3.1 miles. You can fake that.

He’s really not that big. Marathon skinny no but at 6’2” he’s gonna have a bit more weight anyways.

Yea, I am 6'2 and see-saw between 175-185 and everyone thinks I have an eating disorder. Not much more he can lose unless you shed a lot of muscle along with the 13% body fat (which is probably not healthy).

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [arby] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 8:25

Post #21 of 34 (3063 views)

arby wrote:

I am still trying to figure out the 50 miles a week running. How many coaching plans (for age group triathletes of any of race length) have 50 miles per week as a regular part of the plan? I have never seen one. I have multiple friends who are Kona qualifiers and they never run that many miles a week on a regular basis. They might get close as they build to taper, but never that kind of mileage weekly.

I am not talking about pro triathletes, but age-groupers.

Me neither, 50mpw seems excessive. Maybe peak at 50 miles for top IM AGers but average far below that.

OP also stated that he rides 50 mpw but I haven't heard anyone talk about bike fitness. 50 miles on the bike per week is 2-3 hours max per week, which could be enough for a Sprint if it is hard intervals on the trainer but not much at all if it's a few casual loops around the park. Even if he didn't feel like he is "hammering" the bike it might be taking more out of him than he realizes if he is under trained and riding in the heat.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 8:26

Post #22 of 34 (3057 views)

Consider doing your runs in the elements you will race in. If it's going to be hot when you are on the run, training in the AM and PM when it's cooler might not help you adapt to race day.

Also, did you eat a good meal before the race? Any calories around 2 hours before race time?

And, did you hydrate the morning of the race? Day before the race?

Hopefully you didn't go into the event in a caloric deficit mode the week before? If you're trying to lose weight, you're countering the adaptations you should be getting from training. Train to lose weight, or train to race... you need to pick a mindset because counting calories and tying to lose weight on purpose while training isn't a good combo.

Just eat smart and healthy.

Ryan
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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 8:52

Post #23 of 34 (3017 views)

Probably a multi-content solution that will change over time for you.

Heat definitely played a factor for you and seems like for most of the other competitors too. Ice in a cap, cool/wet towel out of T2, drinking some cold fluids on bike, and light colored kit will be best to minimize your core temp. We're you already dehydrated when the race started? Make sure you get proper fluid levels with calories started before you race. You should be peeing headed to the starting line.......... and sweating a bit on the bike
Your minimal base on the swim and at best, average base on the bike, factored into your body being taxed in a tri race. More challenging to match run PR's when doing a swim and bike before. While you didn't suffer much on those legs of the race, your legs on the run weren't exactly fresh coming out of T2. Also, the swim/bike effort boosted your core temp prior to starting the run especially after you lose the wind cooling effect of the bike and the internal metabolism pushes up the body heat quickly. Your prior brick workouts helped the body be somewhat ready for these conditions in a race though you should go longer/harder on the bike workouts to set up tolerance on the run better.
You're lean and you lost 7 lbs in 4 weeks and you wanting to lose 13 more. Pace yourself. Maybe you lost too much too quick for your starting point. Also, maybe too little intake of fluids and calories the night before the race?
If you run on your toes, you'll have bigger calves. Longer distance running with a heel-to-toe motion will reduce you calf muscles (and hence weight) over time. However, running style is a personal decision and open for debate. Quads can morph too based on running/cycling mileage, geography, and style. This is a longer term option.
If you want the easy answer: Swim a bit more. Bike a bit more. Be ready for the run leg a bit more. Adopt cool racing tactics. Race when cooler. If moving up to Olympic or longer distances to go a bit further than just a "bit".

You are at a good place for improvement. Solid physical body. Personal life more settled. Desire to change and adopt for better performance outcomes. Willingness to seek input. Try some changes and test in low key races to see what works and what doesn't for you. Modify and move forward accordingly.

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Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [djmsbr] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 9:04

Post #24 of 34 (2978 views)

djmsbr wrote:

Your minimal base on the swim and at best, average base on the bike, factored into your body being taxed in a tri race. More challenging to match run PR's when doing a swim and bike before. While you didn't suffer much on those legs of the race, your legs on the run weren't exactly fresh coming out of T2

I agree, that was my first thought too. Without getting into specific numbers, it doesn’t sound like a run problem to me, sounds like a swim/bike lack of fitness problem. Strong swimmers can get away with not training the swim and still come out with a respectable swim split, but it doesn’t leave them set up well for the bike/run.

Re: Swim vs Bike/Run [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Aug 21, 18 9:08

Post #25 of 34 (2969 views)

hugoagogo wrote:

Twinkie wrote:

95 degrees and 85% humidity.

OK, I'm calling BS here. Where was this sprint? With those numbers, the dew point would be 89+ degrees. In the United States, there have only been 3 recorded instances of dew point over 90.

Not that I know where this fella did his race... but have you EVER heard of a state called Florida?! Usually in this particular state, humidity does avg in the 80%+ of humidity & high 80s to low 90s in temp!

I did Ft Desoto Tri in FL and that race was super hot and humid! Overwhelming actually but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the site of the race of this other individual

Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!

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