Drafting will be solved technically. Just give everybody a GPS chip that starts to blink if you are in the box of another rider - blinking for 10sec will have you disqualified. Expensive yes - but the only way to save the sport. Short course, wheter we like it or not will be draft legal anyway - the more the sport develops, the closer guys come out of the water.

<<< Drafting will be solved technically. Just give everybody a GPS chip that starts to blink if you are in the box of another rider - blinking for 10sec will have you disqualified. >>>

The GPS idea sounds neat on the surface, but IMHO it wouldn't work - not until a more accurate set of satellites, and a more accurate positioning scheme is introduced (or the rules were rewritten). Regular GPS is only accurate to within 3-5 meters. With WAAS enabled, it is spec'ed to be accurate to < 3 meters 95% of the time. So, let's say that in use, it's being accurate to 2.5 meters, which figures to be about 1.5 bike lengths. Now, let's say you're following another bike at the legal AG distance, 3 bike lengths between you. With the amount of error allowed for both GPSes, they may think that you have as much as 6 bike lengths between you, or it may have you with as little as 0 bike lengths. So, to play it safe, you would have to keep at least 6 lengths between you, so the GPS units would only get you two as close as 3 lengths.

Other technical things that a system would have to deal with:

- AGers and Pros in the same area: the AGers can be as close as 3 lengths to all others, but a pro can only be within 5 lengths of anyone else. Any system would need to be able to differentiate who is who. If the pros are using the stagger rules, it introduces the same problem with errors, except now side-to-side in addition to front-to-back.

- The system would have to handle those times when it's OK to be bunched up - around an aid station, when going through a hard turn, or when everyone has to slow or stop for a train, road obstacle or some other safety reason.

GPSes are great, but not good enough for this type of use.

Mr. Tibbs,

Everyone knows that you draft. Don’t be ashamed that you need to rely on other racers help. Embrace the fact that you bend the rules. Don’t lie about it.



Keep looking over you shoulder. An official might be coming so you will have to back off that wheel.

How does CIRCLING implicitly violate the rule?

All you have to do is pass within 15 seconds and no rules are broken.

So... after reading this entire thread Ironduck, I can only conclude that from the evidence presented no rules were broken, but the rules stink. Reid followed the rules and won. That is how it works in every professional sport.

It is perfectly possible to ride in a pack like IM Kona and never ever break the rules. Simply read the rule you posted and don't violate it.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

I want to be clear that I make NO accusations of cheating against any athlete. But -- it's going on, and it's going in big numbers. Exactly who is using and who is not will not likely ever be known.

Don't know. From what I understand, the benefit of the tent arises from a lack of oxygen, not a lack of pressure. One wants to grow red blood cells, and an oxygen-thin atmosphere is what stimulates that. Low pressure can be dangerous anyway (edema).

I think barometric chambers are being used for a different purpose. Rather than simulating high altitude (hypobaric), they are being used to increase pressure (hyperbaric) in an attempt to help the body recover and heal faster. The idea is to "force" more O2 into the body, blah blah blah.

The hypo-oxygen tents are become more and more widespread. College XC teams are starting to buy them. They work and they're safe, and they're ethical. What's a competitive program to do...?

Rule : however, enter the drafting zone of another cyclist through side to side movement when not attempting to overtake or making forward progress to overtake the other cyclist



They were not overtaking each other. They were falling back/circling through. This explicitly violates the rule because you are not attempting to overtake the rider.



What is true about every professional sport is that if an official doesn’t penalize you for breaking the rules then you can benefit without it costing you anything. If you look at my postings you will see that I say that Reid is the Champion even though he cheated. As they say in football holding happens on every play it is just matters if the referee calls it. If you hold you are still breaking the rules but it may not be called.



I still ask the question. Is the Ironman a drafting or non drafting race? It sounds like everyone feels that it a drafting race that limits but does not exclude the benefits of drafting.



I always thought it was a non drafting race.

Actually this is the AG rule...
Peter Reid did win following the rules that were set i.e. the stagger rule for pro races in the US.

He won without cheating that's a fact.

The problem is not who cheated or who didn't cheat, the problem is: is the stagger rule against the "spirit" of a draft free Ironman.

In this case, the answer is definitely yes. The stagger had a very serious impact on the race and with a clear draft free race (say a 30' head start for the pros with a 5mx20m drafting box) the result would have been different (maybe not for the win, but I think some that were behind the bunch would have caught many of those that were in the bunch, and some in the bunch would have ridden away).

So Peter Reid is the winner this year. No doubt. He won following the rules that were set. There is nothing that can be said against this.

But the stagger rule has to go. Truly, I see it as an insult to triathlon and to AG (and I race pro, or try too :-))...

just my .2c

hi,
normann did a few words on his way do do triathlon.

Site: http://www.normann-stadler.info
English: http://www.xtri.com/article.asp?id=1053
German: http://www.3athlon.de/..._stadler_iv_post.php

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kind regards
Kai Baumgartner

It seems to me that pretty much all pros will discribe each other as clean and claim they have the highest respect for each other.

Which pros (other than the one discussed above) have a bad or dirty reputation either in relation to drugs or as a drafter among the other pros.

Alas, Francois is right. Reid did win within rules that destroyed the spirit of Ironman. He did not CHEAT the rulebook. He acted like a professional...do what it takes to collect the biggest paycheck. I am not blaming him for that. It is just sad for the sport.

And I respect Al-Sultan and Stadler for trying to do the right thing. Although after reading the interview w/ Stadler, he was quoted as saying he was hoping to ride WITH Al-Sultan, but Al-Sultan was too spent by the time he got to him. Sounds to me like he was going to take the same advantage of a STUPID rule as all the rest.

Guess I feel like I just found out Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny weren't real.

I hope the regulatory bodies find a way to eliminate drafting for the true fans of the sport.

PS: Tibbs, look behind you. The 2 guys w/ a straight jacket in their hands are coming for you.

IronDuck that your interpretation of the AG rule is nuts. You are implying that EVERY cyclist on the course who gets passed is violating the rule because THEY are not overtaking. Of course they aren't overtaking. They are BEING OVERTAKEN. The onus is on the person passing, not the one being passed. There is no rule that limits how, when, or how often you can get passed.

Sorry dude, but you need to rethink this one.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Just so we are all clear. The rule I am talking about is an elite rule not the AG rule. Check the rules if you have any questions about that.

I will now explain why I think the rule was broken. I first am assuming that the people reading this post have been on a group ride that involved drafting. I am also basing this on the pictures of the tight pack that we all saw on TV and in the magazines covering the race. I am also basing this on the comments made by the TV announcers talking about the group working together to gain and advantage by drafting.

When drafting on a ride you circle through the group. You take turns doing the work at the front. You fall into other peoples draft line when not overtaking them. The rule was being broken when each cyclist was allowing another to overtake them while they fell into there draft line.

Rule : however, enter the drafting zone of another cyclist through side to side movement when not attempting to overtake or making forward progress to overtake the other cyclist

I will concede that since I was not there that when Reid said the circled through like everyone else that they may have circled through taking care to not fall in the box of each others rules specified draft.

Being an age group finisher I do agree with IMFinisher that this is a disappointing feeling. For many there is a spirit to Ironman/triathlon racing. It is a personal test that has personal rewards that can’t be achieved by drafting. But for the pros and for many on this site it seems to be about the end justifying the means. That is not what it is about for me.

I will leave you to your time shaving by drafting, doping and what else is out there that I really don’t want to know about. I am in pursuit of a double Ironman distance race. For me to do that I can’t waste time worrying about what pros are doing in a race that has rules that don’t reflex the spirit of the race.

Peter was not breaking this rule...and unless you are racing pro and attended a pro meeting with Charlie C. explaining what this means (because truthfully most of us racing rpo were wondering what the heck is this rule) it's unlikely you understood it....

it forbids side to side mvt just because at NO time can you enter the draft 2m x infinity drafting box of the rider preceding you. I can ride 2mx2m behind a rider being on the left, but cannot go left, then right, then left etc... UNLESS it's the front rider who is moving which is precisely what was happening in Kona. Al sultan and Hellriegel were changing positions all the time at the front to avoid people being in their draft. Say with an east wind going north, you'd be as close as possible to the central line not to allow people to stagger of you and vice versa with a west wind (pretty much a smaller version of echelon in cycling).

Because they were moving quite a bit at the front, there was that impression of circling within the bunch as once the leader moves, everyone has to follow.

so the only time you can be 2m directly behind someone is if the leader moves, if this is what happens, you are not breaking the rules, you are just trying to stagger. If you are on the near extreme right of the road stagger left to the leader and the leader decides to go left on the yellow line, you HAVE to cross is drafting box because
1. the length is infinite
2. if you don't you ride towards oncoming traffic.

So, are there pros taking advantage of the stagger rule? definitely. but as long as it's the rule and noone changes it, there is not much you can do about it...I hope there will be enough voices to say: get rid of this, it sucks, let the pros have a 30' start and a 5mx20m drafting box...this will force people to really ride...

Are there pros not taking advantage of the rule. Definitely. Probably not as many as those taking advantage of it though. So don't put everyone in the same bunch. a friend of mine road 1' back the first bunch and stayed there on purpose because he knew he would have people sucking his wheels up there and didn't want to use that rule for his benefit. He finished a bit outside the prize money and would have probably be in the prize money otherwise.

Your last remark is offensive (to me at least). I'd choose a shity race without drafting over using the stagger rule and a good race anytime, and I am sure many here would do the same.
The last remark is if you are really doing this for yourself, then why the hell do you give a rat's ass about what others are doing in the race?

if you don't want to waste time about what SOME pros are doing in the race, just don't think about it...you think going to a double IM will change this???
huh???

hi,
not at all. norman is not the fastest swimmer and always storming to front - without staggering on agegroupers or other athletes. after getting the 1st chasinggoup he trying breaking away and succeeded. riding together is ment in that psychological and clean way. faris is still one of new guys, to hear from. but not as strong than thomas or normann on the bike.

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kind regards
Kai Baumgartner

This 2003 post may have been a form of foreshadowing to come in 2004.

   

Another interesting quote from this 2003 thread with a little bit of foreshadowing.

Beautiful

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik