That is not all.



The race is intended to be a solo effort on the bike in a time trial fashion. It states in the rules that drafting is not allowed.



Reid and the other riders found a loophole in the new rules to allow them to draft.



Does that mean that it is a draft legal race? No. Did they draft? Yes.



You actually hit right on the problem with your last statement. Reid doesn’t deserve full credit because he received help during the bike portion of the race. Did he acknowledge his fellow drafters for helping him beat the racers that didn’t draft? No.



Nobody knows if he would have won without drafting.

So then ask yourself if you consider drafting part of Ironman racing and you will have the answer if Reid deserved the win or a non drafting racer deserved the win.

Whoa. Took me about 4 minutes to find the right online phamacy which pushes EPO syringes to the masses. Come to think of it, I am feeling a little anemic...

As a over-40 AGer myself, I do constantly shake my head in amazement at the guys nearing 50 who can handily beat good 30 something year olds in an IM, and then do it again a week or two later. I saw an example this year at a World Championship and the "gap" between the "mature" Superman in question and the 2nd place guy was huge. And this was a mere week after the guy had done an IM!!! As much as I can't believe that your basic AGer would even consider using EPO, especially the "more mature" athletes, the ability to race so hard with so little rest is just hard for me to comprehend.

Maybe it's just damn good genes and better training/less beer.

there is probably some EPO use in triathlon.
That said, this is not the first time you (and others)
directly point LVL with no proof whatsoever...
because of his IMH96 performance, because he is from Belgium etc...
now if I say Lance is probably on EPO because of his relation with M. Ferrari, half the forum would jump to rescue him...
Fact is LVL got tested for his two wins and his second place, he was also tested in Roth, always negative.

It's funny that we are in a country where if I say:
this doctor or this lawyer should not be there, they cheated in college, cheated the SAT, anything like this, I could be sued, but then, everyone can say whatever he/she wants about this athlete using X or Y performance enhancing drugs...

To Reid's credit, he did try to break away a few times. He talked with Hellriegel and Stadler after the race. Reid and Hellriegel tried to break away but couldn't, only Stadler was able to go.

This was in the chat thing on insidetri

Hellriegel and Reid spent most of the time at the front with Faris Al Sultan

according to the german IMH version.

LVL has always seemed misunderstood by the average American triathlon fan. Despite this fact, he also seems to be held in the highest regards by his fellow competitors, and even knowledgeable triathlon reporters.

This would suggest to me that those "in the know" feel that he is racing clean. I would think there would have to be some trash-talking if people close to him seriously doubted his records.

Furthermore, I have never seen more good sportmanship demonstrated from ANY PERSON in ANY SPORT. Watch a broadcast of the Ironman coverage from 1996, 1998, or 1999. Rarely does van Lierde go past another competitor -- whether he is ahead or behind in the overall standings -- without giving them a pat on the pack, a thumbs-up, etc.

At St. Croix (I believe it was in 2000) he even let Oscar Galindez take the run prime before surging ahead to take the overall win by a comfortable margin. Hey -- money talks, and somebody doping is obviously in it for reasons other than to "be a nice guy."

There is no need for this forum to cast doubts on Luc's outstanding performances. I only hope that he can return to this form again soon! I hear he is going to race IM Lanzarote this coming year!

Ray

This is sad. All this arguing sounds like basball stat geeks arguing over home run records or worse comic book collecters arguing over what is a true super hero. "In my humble opinoin Daredevil is not a true super hero. His increased senses are not a true super power. The Preacher on the other hand..."

Look the rules say ride like this. Ried did. He won. He got first place. He has the medal. There is no "spirit of the Ironman prize".

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Re: EPO Usage among elite AG's.

FACINATING!

Are the top AG's out there really doping up?

I have been doing tri's 7 years languishing 2/3 down the ag finishers list. Have I been missing the boat? I race for the love of it, for the health benefits (eat as many snickers as I want) and to constantly test myself. I can't imagine what is going on in the heads of the dopers. I understand (not approvingly) the pros - they are fighting for tomorrows dinner - but the AG who has a family and a full time job?

I would love the feeling of winning a race, but I would rather be around to walk my daughters (who will be future Iron Queens, Astronauts, US Congresswomen and US Presidents) down the isle at their wedding day.

Are the health benefits for EPO the same as steroids - early death?

People in the know... are the top AG's really doped up?

he is signed up for racing in Malaysia again (nice pro starter field)

http://www.ironmanlangkawi.com.my/...rticipant.asp?Page=3

Garrett is also racing IMNZ...that's gonna be a busy week for him... :-)

Bryan Rhodes raced in both events this year too

No problem :)

I am not sure he ran at all in Malaysia.

he dropped out after the bike part (as far as I remember) like many others

but 2003 wasn`t a good year for him anyway

IM Malayisa: DNF

IM NZ: 9:25:26, 34

HIM St Croix: 4:13:56, 5

QCR: DNF

IMC: DNF

No slot for Ironman Hawaii

//// It states in the rules that drafting is not allowed.

Where in the rules does it say drafting is not allowed for pros? If the USAT rules apply, I don't think there is a general drafting prohibition for the pros.

Rule 5.10a, Position Fouls - Elite Rules, sets forth the stagger rule. It doesn't say that drafting is not allowed -- it simply sets forth the draft zones, the stagger rule, passing rules, etc. If the pro group stayed outside the zones proscribed in the rule and otherwise followed the rule, then they followed the rules of the sport -- even if the positions created a drafting situation. See http://www.usatriathlon.org/..._Officials/rules.htm

Note, for AGs, the rule is different. In addition to defining draft zones, etc, Rule 5.10 states in the beginning: "While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct." The rule then goes on to establish specific prohibitions in terms of draft zones, passing, etc.

In sum, for AGs, the rule provides a general prohibition on joint conduct and then additional specific restrictions. The pro rule contains no general restriction on joint conduct -- only specific restrictions.

For instance, if two AG riders used a tactic where they repeatedly passed and repassed each other using the 15 second rule to slingshot off each other, there would be no specific restriction that prohibited them from doing that, but they could be penalized under the general restriction on joint conduct.



No representation is made that the quality of rule interpretation performed herein is greater than the quality of rule interpretation performed by any other fools.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

"As much as I can't believe that your basic AGer would even consider using EPO, especially the "more mature" athletes, the ability to race so hard with so little rest is just hard for me to comprehend."

EPO doesn't do anything for your ability to recover. It makes more red blood cells so you can go a little harder and stay aerobic. Anabolic steroids would help your recovery, but it doesn't make much sense for a mature age grouper to spend thousands of dollars on the stuff. Guys like Cuddeback (sp?) and Bonness most likely kick ass because of good genes and hard training.

"it doesn't make much sense for a mature age grouper to spend thousands of dollars on the stuff."

Does it make sense for an age grouper to spend thousands on bike, online coach, tri camp, Cobb's wind tunnel camp, etc. To some people winning is everything, even if just an AG.

Take bodybuilding. Go into the gym scene and there are thousands of roid users with no intent or chance of ever winning a Mr. Olympia but pop the roids any ways for no other reason so they can flex big muscles in the gym. Absolute stupidity but all kinds of amateur male and female BB's are doing it. I've known some of them.

It's probably very naive to believe there are no drugs in triathlon especially since it's been demonstrated in swimming, cycling and running as stand alone sports. I wouldn't even be surprised one bit if a small percentage of AG's are using them.

According to controlled studies, one recovers faster, too. Generally because one doesn't need to go as hard to go as fast.

On any given day, our aerobic limiter is in the mechanisms that bring O2 to the muscles. The muscles can use all that is delivered, but generally don't get all they can use. That's why EPO is so potent. It can make nearly anybody in any sort of shape faster. One still needs to train, of course, but on race day, they'll go faster at a given PE with a higher hematocrit level.

An oxygen deprivation tent can do nearly the same amount of hematocrit increase.

I am very cynical about the use of illegal performance enhancing drugs in sport. Like cerveloguy, I have seen people of all ages -- from high school students to the 40+ crowd -- frying their bodies with 'roids in the local gym, just so they can look good at the beach or in their driveways washing their cars while shirtless. I have seen people take performance enhancing drugs with a whole lot less on the line than a professional athlete. The cynic in me says that drugs are rampant in all professional sports, especially those with lax testing protocols. I'm not sure about the testing procedures in triathlon (or any professional sport), but since people make money in triathlon, I'd be willing to bet quite a bit that drug use is pretty rampant -- more so than we'd all like to admit.

Are drugs used in the age group ranks as well? Probably not as much as amongst the pros, but among the elite AGers, I would think so.

This, of course, is all purely speculation.

RP

   

http://outside.away.com/...311_drug_test_1.html

The above article from outside magazine has been discussed here before, go ahead and read it and you will be enlightened. I can't say that I know for a fact that the top age groupers are doping, b/c I haven't SEEN it with my eyes, but my intuition as well as first and second-hand accounts leave no doubts in my mind. The last piece of the puzzle for me was reading this article and realizing just how easy it is to acquire basically anything you want. The average pro triathlete can't afford the medley the author of the article was using, but the average top age grouper certainly can. (What's the avg income of IMNA participants, 80k or something?)

We've strayed from the topic of the original post, but the point of my post is that age groupers are using performance enhancing drugs.....sad but true.

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"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"

Reid’s own words

"I was CIRCLED through like everyone else"

How does this not violate rule 5.10.C

5.10.C (1) When entering the drafting zone from the rear, closing the gap, and overtaking all within no more than 15 seconds; a participant may not, however, enter the drafting zone of another cyclist through side to side movement when not attempting to overtake or making forward progress to overtake the other cyclist; or

Just so we are clear. These rules are all designed to stop drafting. They were drafting and violating rule 5.10.C 1 for elite athletes.



Mr.Tibbs,

DaveDevil and the Punisher are the only comic book characters that were worth following. They both saw that the law of the land wasn’t getting the job done so they took it into their own hands. Lookout drafting triathletes, they may come for you next.



Justice will be done! J

"..., but the average top age grouper certainly can. (What's the avg income of IMNA participants, 80k or something?) "

Not only can AG'rs afford the meds, but take a gander at what some people are already willing to spend for a ticket to the big show in Kona. Bikes - upwards of $7,000; premium coaching - $400+ per month; etc. Anybody note what Kona slots sold for on Ebay in the masters' age groups? If somebody is willing to pay $25 - $40,000 CASH, then somebody else is certainly willing to buy 3 months worth of EPO.

And, a thought about the Outside article: The author was careful to do things legally, since he was going to "come out" about his experience. He was also careful to take everything under an expert physician's supervision (ethics guidelines at the magazine and all that...). But, in the real world, you can get a prescription by email from an out-of-state doctor and have the EPO Fed-Exed to your doorstep by tomorrow morning.

Think I'm exaggerating? I tested an on-line doc yesterday. I wrote up my own diagnosis on a form ("anemic" "tired" "hematocrit is low: 32") and asked for an EPO prescription. An affirmative reply came back within a half hour, along with request for my credit card number. I stopped there. Many people don't. We're all racing against some of them.

And it's not only EPO the problem. Contrary to what most people believe, steroids are helpful to endurance athletes since they can be taken in small doses do help recovery. Nandrolone is one of those steroids and its use was widespread some years ago, namely in european soccer. Some cases were also reported in pure endurance sports, including triathlon. And nandrolone is very easy to get, it's the steroid given to old citizens in order to increase their overall strenght levels.

Sinthetic hormones are also a problem, especially for over-40 AG athletes. And you don't have to go as far as growh hormone. For example, the use of DHEA was widespread some years ago among american AG athletes. The human body stops producing DHEA around 35 and this stopage is one of the reason for the decline in strenght and performance for over-40 athletes.

And it's always tough to say that an elite athlete was doped just by looking at the results sheet. But when AG winners are racing IM's in sucessive weeks, when they're winning by a large margin, it's not very hard to see what's happening.



Paulo

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

and I thought it was easier to get EPO in Europe...
darn!
in Europe, EPO can only be obtained in dialysis centers (France for example) and this is highly controlled, so even if you know someone, that's pretty hard.
However, you can get EPO (with the prescription of an "understanding doctor") in Portugal, Italy, Spain, Switzerland...
I have also seen guys in bike races with toothbrush box taped to the frame, with a syringue prefilled with "Pot belge" (belgium mix?)...and they would openly say "you should try, it really helps..."...
yeah right, so that's why you end up in the fence after the spring??

plain sucks...

but to realize that you can get EPO even more easily in the US is scary...

Although I remember a thread a while back where many argued that Euro Pro Triathletes were certainly using more drugs than US ones because drugs are much harder to get here...
I guess that was a bit off...in Europe you still have to know someone (ok, it's not really hard...)

in any case, I still stand behind the following:

"drafting will give you more of an edge than any combination of drugs"

besides, the only risk with drafting is to get a "unfashionable" (to quote spencer) red mark on your bib.

I believe that I am the real 2003 Ironman champion. You see I have more triathlon spirit than anyone. I don't have a fancy bike or sponsors. I am the grass roots. I am hard kore. The spirit lives with in me. So I won! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I AM THE WINNER NOT BECAUSE OF PERFORMANCE AND FOLLOWING THE RULES BUT BECAUSE I DIDN'T DRAFT!!!! CROSSING THE FINISH LINE FIRST MEANS NOTHING TO ME THE WORLD CHAMPION!!!

Spencer did break any rules. The people who ran the race made the new bike rule so it is they're rule that counts.

This thread is as lame and stupid as that voting Mr. Tibbs off thread. That dude is a jack ass.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I agree that some amateur athletes would be willing to "juice", but I think most of those athletes are in the under 35 crowd and still believe they can make it as a professional. It's true there are some older guys doping in the bodybuilding scene, but I don't think triathlon compares very well to bodybuilding.

It seems to me that some people are making very thinly veiled accusations against Bonness. I believe the guy is old enough and wealthy enough not to do anything stupid to gain a few minutes on his ironman time. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary please speak up. Otherwise, just grow up and accept the fact that just because somebody is faster than you does not mean they are cheating.

"According to controlled studies, one recovers faster, too. Generally because one doesn't need to go as hard to go as fast."

Agreed. It's just that athletes generally take EPO to go faster and they take steroids to recover faster. Any recovery benefits from EPO are indirect.

Regarding oxygen tents, I've heard that they are falling out of favor and are being replaced with barometric chambers by the pros. Any truth to this?