From the Convention against Torture.

1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. [/url]

I think, despite the language you are quoting from the website, that the amendment does represent a change in the law. I think the use of dogs to intimidate, for example, might pass the test as not being severe pain or suffering, but would not pass muster under the McCain amendment. If the amendment did not represent a change in US law, I do not think the administration would be opposing it quite as vigourously.

Yeah, well that is just dandy. I am sure a Congressional hearing is the most efficient way to get to the bottom of a national security leak.

Pardon me while I go puke.

I'm finding this very interesting, espeically since you are often careful not to get ahead of stories...

I am sure our friends here will be demanding an investigation into this leak. I am sure they are shocked, shocked to see that the CIA leaks to the NY Times.

I'm sure you're aware by now that Trent Lott is suggesting that the leak came from Republicans who attended a briefing lunch with Dick Cheney. It's all a muddled path right now. Are you sure you want the investigation?

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You're not stuck in traffic. You ARE traffic.

Yes, I want the investigation. And I want it to be classified, not some public spectacle.

The CIA and the State Department are rouge agencies with significant elements pursuing their own agenda in opposition to policies of the Executive.

If some Senators are leaking highly classified information like good old Leahy, they need to face consequences too.

If you want to have one investigation, then let's have them all.

I may have missed the story you're referring to, been on vacation and avoiding the news. What leak was Leahy involved in?

Thanks.

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You're not stuck in traffic. You ARE traffic.

It was many years ago so I don't remember the details anymore. He was busted and thrown off the Senate Intelligence committee as a result of his leaking.

The rights I have as an American derive from the fact that I AM an American.

Don't other people, unfortunate as they may be not to have been born here, have rights too or is it that American rights trump all other countries because we have the most wealth?

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Casey, you really need to deal with the fact that our laws end at our borders. Canadians don't have First Amendment rights. They have whatever rights are provided by their government.

Read more carefully...

Article 16

1. Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. In particular, the obligations contained in articles 10, 11, 12 and 13 shall apply with the substitution for references to torture of references to other forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

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Yeah, well that is just dandy. I am sure a Congressional hearing is the most efficient way to get to the bottom of a national security leak.


Art, what are you talking about? The CIA has asked the Justice Dept. to look into it (sound familiar?). There's no "congressional hearing".



Casey, you really need to deal with the fact that our laws end at our borders. They have whatever rights are provided by their government.

Once again, when the US signs an international treaty, it becomes US law. We have signed more than treaty that says we prohibit the cruel, degrading, and inhuman treatment of prisoners. Just because the current administration decided to interpret that in a manner inconsistent with the actual treaty, and say that these prohibitions don't apply to "enemy combantants" doesn't change our obligation to common decency.

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I just an not knowledgeable on our various treaty obligations, so, sorry, I can't engage there.

I was referring to the letter from Frist and Hastert authorizing a bicameral Congressional committee to examine the leak. Just dandy.

Yes, sir. The country is going broke from ever increasing government spending and a demographic time bomb with SS, Medicare and Medicaid. Our reaction, let's investigate some noncrimes and start prosecuting whoever didn't jump through the public political hurdles. This looks no different than Chirac fiddling while France burns.

Tell me, why do we know that the CIA asked for an investigation? That is classified. An investigation is fine, but we should never hear a word about it.

This is just an ongoing massive deflection.

As usual, the media misses the story.

I just an not knowledgeable on our various treaty obligations, so, sorry, I can't engage there.


Art, do you think I have a masters in polticial science, or that I work for the State Department, or have some special knowledge not available to you? A few minutes of internet searching reveals the treaties in question, and the rationale behind the McCain amendment. Do the tiniest amount of homework (shit, I cut and pasted the relevant sections in this thread) so you can join the discussion. But if you insist on the policy of intellectual laziness, I'd kindly ask you to refrain from making comments like "Casey, you really need to deal with the fact that our laws end at our borders"

Tell me, why do we know that the CIA asked for an investigation? That is classified. An investigation is fine, but we should never hear a word about it.

How did we know that the CIA asked for an investigation into Plame's leak? I don't think asking for an investigation is classified. If you think a House/Senate intelligence committee investiation in parallel is a waste of time, well I'm not sure I'll argue with you, but I hardly find it a reason to get all worked up.

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I have read the stuff you cut and pasted, but reading selected portions is just not sufficient. It is not obvious how these things get interpreted or that the provisions you quote are not modified elsewhere in the document or misleading out of context.

I am just ignorant about these things, and I will not try to fake my way through it. I would rather just concede one point for you. You really need to learn to take yes for an answer.

Yes, the CIA referral in the Plame case was classified. We heard about it because it was leaked.

Let's entertain the public with more show investigations and show trials. It sure beats trying to deal with serious issues. Maybe they will forget we are going broke.

Sorry, but I don't think a Cliff notes version of treaties that fill books just doesn't cut it.

I do appreciate the company though.

AND for a special bonus, you said it better than I could.

Time to change signatures!

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Art, the Convention against toture is really quite short, and the language is crystal clear. If you dont trust my excerpts, it wouldn't be that hard for you to peruse the whole thing.

But if you really are conceding the point, I guess there's no point in me aguing it further. Still, usually concessions are phrased more like "OK, I see" rather than "I wont engage you - selective quotes don't tell the whole story"

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Yeah, I am violating LR rules. I should loudly maintain my point of view despite ignorance of the topic at hand.

Sorry. Hope I don't get banned for the infraction.

Last week I asked Vitus to provide a Cole's notes version to a long link so I didn't have to strain myself and read too much and now I get someone to argue my replies AND for a special bonus, you said it better than I could.

Lazy Prot.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sorry guys. I hear only one side of the story and I don't know enough to have an independent intelligent opinion.

I already apologized for not blustering through despite not knowing what I am talking about per LR tradition. No need to pile on.

"Don't other people, unfortunate as they may be not to have been born here, have rights too or is it that American rights trump all other countries because we have the most wealth?"

I am not talking about natural rights. This issue arises in the context of a proposed change in US law. (Also some debate about whether it IS a change, but I digress.) With respect to US law, there is, for the most part, a distinction between citizens and non-citizens. Until Joe Al Qaiada is paying US taxes and otherwise accepts the benefits and burdens of US citizenship, he is not entitled to the same rights.

I am not talking about natural rights. This issue arises in the context of a proposed change in US law.

The issue arises in the context of a proposed change in US law which would allow the US to violate the natural human rights of other people. (Or maybe US citizens as well. Do we know that there aren't or won't be US citizens in these secret prisons?)

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."